Witnessing, serving God,and uncivil hateful people..

[Byblos]

To be quite honest, you are the only bad thing about this place, but because of you I'm just about getting sick of being here. But I've found a much better place, it's CSLewislover's and Gabrielman's message board where they at least don't allow legalistic types like youself to troll, spam, and hijack theads. I greatly encourage Bart, Gman, and all of the other kinder reasonable folks to join me there sometime. But until then I guess I'll have to spend more time over there.

While you may not like what Jlay has to say or even vehemently disagree with it, I don't think there's any doubt what he is telling you is borne out of concern. And at no time was he disrespectful to you in any way so for you to attack him the way you did is flat out wrong. Please take a step back and reevaluate your response.

[Canuckster1127]

Derrick,

With all respect you're saying some things here that would be better handled in another manner and you're also saying some things that are untrue.

The people you are referring to were "not gotten rid of". They chose to leave and they did so after extensive efforts on the parts of many to resolve issues. They were not asked to leave. Further, many of us remain in touch with both of them in other forums and mediums and count them as friends.

Derrick, I believe based on our previous conversations that you know that I have a heart for some of the issues you are speaking of here. I also on occassion have strong disagreements and issues with some here and in other locations. None of us are perfect, including me. But with all sincerity and care for you, and others here, these kind of comments, apart from the fact that they violate our discussion guidelines, which is enough, but they also drive wedges between people who even though they disagree on important issues, are still brothers and sisters in Christ.

So you're aware, I'm going to disable your account for a short period of time, because I believe that you're saying and doing some things right now that are based on emotions, hurt and perhaps some misinformation. It's intended as a cooling off period. You may email me directly if you wish at canuckster1127@earthlink.net in the meantime and I hope you will.

bart

[zoegirl]

FWIW, I always found at my grad classes that a gentle answer does indeed turn away wrath. Even in relatively hostile environments, a cool head can do a lot and an gentle inquiry speaks louder than any forceful question. There is bitterness and I can understand some of it, but we must remember that if Christ died for sinners then certainly I can go the extra mile to be reasonable and loving. There will of course be times when we shake the sand off our feet, but avoiding any talk is certainly not helpful.

I think the vast majority of college students (this is from most of my alumni) are just rather clueless, even the hostile ones. And simply getting to know them is far better than trying to convince them but often leads to the latter. Sometimes you will build friendships, even in the midst of this, and truly as long as you can avoid getting pulled down into the mire, this is exactly as we should be. We are to be salt and light, gentle as a dove but clever as serpents. We are His tools, may we not provide any hindrance to our usefulness.

I had a assistant paster at a church once who said a very simple comment and yet it has stuck with me. Once when I was complaining about people in general and their frustrations he simply said this: "we are sinners, never be surprised by the behavior of sinners....what would we expect?" people will disappoint, especially unregenerate (bu sadly Christians as well).

I was at another church's lunch function with a pastor who was definitely OEC (framework) and it was rather unfortunate that some of his parishioners who weren't familiar with his views were railing science and OEC rather obnoxiously, obviously expecting him to join in. It was rather impressive to hear his gentle answer, very reasonable, direct, but not confrontational (lol, I thought "that's what I want to be when i grow up").

I am certainly not the best one to talk, considering my own frsutrations with church but it is vital to find the support from other Christians in a local environment. Even though I struggle with this, I know it is the best.

[jlay]

Great post Zoe.

One of my friends is an assistant pastor, and his testimony is that he was the guy that everyone said was hopeless and beyond saving. Drug dealer, hostile towards Christians, you name it. You won't find many more passionate about reaching the same kind of people. Remember, just because we see someone's outward reaction, we never know the effect on the heart.

[Gman]

This verse has always helped me...

Romans 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Knowing that it is the goodness of God that makes us want to repent.. Not harshness..

[zoegirl]

lol, of course, I too do not like cold witnessing....so defintiely sympathetic there. I intensely dislike when total strangers come up to be and just start asking so I can imagine it would be the same for the others. However, some defeintely have the talent for this, I do not.

There was a time in my life when I thought that cold witnessing was the defining method of witnessing...until somewhere in middle school, I don't remember when, I remember learning about what the word witness means and that me living for Christ is the best witness I could be.

[jlay]

Zoe, very good points.
Being a witness, as I recently pointed out, isn't grabbing someone on the street corner and shouting 'repent and perish.' That does more harm, and quite frankly I don't see any good. One thing that I had a great issue with in this thread and others, in addition to being called a clown and accused of forcing others off the board, is having my own personal beliefs misrepresented. Such as being a charismatic, which I am most definately not. And that cold witnessing is a 'requirement,' and that I think people who refuse are the spawn of Satan. What I do however believe is that we can not make claims that we are not called to be witnesses.
I made the point multiple times in this thread that being a witness doesn't have to boil down to cold witnessing, knocking on a stranger's door, etc. One thing I have learned is that if we are open to be used of God, opportunities will manifest. That may be striking up a conversation while waiting in a doctor's office. Seeing a neighbor in need. Plenty of ways. And these divine appointments will many times come at an inconvenience to our own time, comfort and methods.

Witnessing is neglected. Cold or otherwise.

However, some defeintely have the talent for this, I do not.

That depends on how you define talent. Moses said he didn't have the talent to speak for Israel. If you are saying that being outgoing and having natural abiblity is the key then I would strongly disagree. I have never met anyone that doesn't battle fear when speaking with others about matters of faith. Nor, have I ever met anyone who didn't struggle with their own qualifications, whether it be witnessing, mission work, preaching, etc. The fact is Zoe, no one is qualified. God doesn't call the qualified. He qualifies the called. People have an inate fear of confrontation and rejection. That is why so many people don't like to discuss religion and politics. If we say, "i'm not cut out for that. I'm too small, too tall, to skinny, too fat, to white, too black," then what are we saying? It's about me. I actually had that one come up when I was asked to share my testimony with a group of inner city black kids. "Me? I'm too white." Now, three of those boys are regulars in my Monday night men's group, and God is using them in mighty ways.

Zoe, if you went to a new job, or new church, new neighborhood or new school, and nobody came up to you. No one introduced themselves. How would you feel? The fact is that we can talk to people even strangers about spiritual things, and we don't have to be obnoxious about it. There are people who will be offended if we even hint at such things. There are people who are uncomfortable being talked to about spiritual things. There are even people who will react abrasively. We can politely excuse ourselves. But I know that there is a generation out there, desperate for answers, just longing that someone would share with them and enlighten them to the truth. I know, because I've seen it. Not everyone is like you. Not everyone is like me. But all need the Gospel, of this I am sure. I guess the question I ask myself, is what will I yield to, my own limitations or my desire to see the Gospel spread. If I just found out that I had been cured of a terminal disease, I wouldn't be shy about sharing that with anyone. Yet, we have even more than that.

I know there will be a day, when every opportunity God provided us will be clear. We will see the times that we submitted to our own fears and limitations. And we will see the times where we yielded ourselves to God, and relied completely on His sourcing, His provision, and His strength.

[zoegirl]

Zoe, if you went to a new job, or new church, new neighborhood or new school, and nobody came up to you. No one introduced themselves. How would you feel?

have been there and it's frustrating. It's defeintely true that we should be open to inviting people....but the proper motivation should be there. It think those that cold witness (I know you are not advocating it....just elaborating here) sometimes only do so for the notches on the belt. Whereas we should be inviting because we understand what we have to offer.

The fact is that we can talk to people even strangers about spiritual things, and we don't have to be obnoxious about it. There are people who will be offended if we even hint at such things. There are people who are uncomfortable being talked to about spiritual things. There are even people who will react abrasively. We can politely excuse ourselves. But I know that there is a generation out there, desperate for answers, just longing that someone would share with them and enlighten them to the truth. I know, because I've seen it. Not everyone is like you. Not everyone is like me. But all need the Gospel, of this I am sure. I guess the question I ask myself, is what will I yield to, my own limitations or my desire to see the Gospel spread. If I just found out that I had been cured of a terminal disease, I wouldn't be shy about sharing that with anyone. Yet, we have even more than that.

No disagreement here. There are certainly personality differences that makes some people more charismatic (here I am using this to describe the personality, not doctrine) and easy to walk up and talk to.

I certainly don't think we have to have some sort of "list" or quota for ourselves when we go out to the day, but simply be open for those opportunities. It is just as and more powerful to be the best neighbor you can be and care for your neighbors than simply place tracts or invitations to churches in their mailboxes (although that can have a place as well). It is a very powerful witness to be patient and kind to the clerk behind the counter (especially if you are repeat customer and can develop a sort of interaction...something that is lost in our society). That certainly is more my comfort zone in everyday life.

I think of Moses during these discussions, who felt his inadequacy very deeply towards, let's face it, his Egyptian brother and family, not just the Pharaoh, but his family. What's odd is that I don't consider myself a tremendous speaker, even in teaching. I went to speech therapy in elementary school and I still notice on very long hard days it can be hard to enunciate. Not to mention the nerves that still sometimes gets to me. But I think about all of the verses, especially to Moses and to Joshua. Do not be afraid, do not fear, we have not been given a spirit of fear but a spirit of boldness. Powerful words and even my own weaknesses God speaks through me. Shoot, it IS those weaknesses that God uses. And that both scares me and pleases me. I am not where I want to be, I still feel that pressure....but we already are witnesses. We can't help but be "living letters" to those around us.

That was the picture that was with me when i saw (sorry for waxing poetic about this) The Kings Speech. Although it didn't bring up God or religion, it very much evokes that story of overcoming that fear within us that can consume us. Very powerful film.......Go see it

[jlay]

Motivation is a huge key. What is driving us? Where is our heart? You do hear the 'we had x number of decisions for Christ.' That stuff doesn't do much for me. Particularly with a lot of the methods employed today to get those decisions.

I'll give you a recent example. There is a large hip church here in Knox Co. They just opened a campus in the county I live in, which is adjacent. Well, we certainly don't lack for congregational churches in my county. So I looked on their website to see if they explained their reasons for the plant. Nothing. Then I wrote the pastor an email, inquiring, 'What needs did you see, and what research did you do, to determine that Blount Co. was an appropriate location for a new campus." His response was that one of their 'goals' was to have a campus in each surrounding counties. Now their is a biblical mandate if I've ever heard it. No prayer, no research, no specific need recognized. Just a man made goal. After looking at their other goals on their website, it became clear that they are very earthly in their ambitions. Although our conversation was polite, you could tell in his response that he was caught off gaurd, and did not have a clear purpose for the move. The move wasn't based on the county, the people, and the needs within. It was based on arbitrary goal setting.

In the same way, our witness should be properly motivated. What you said, and what I said is true. Be open and ready to be used by God. We need to be prepared, and suited for the game. I love how Paul instructs the young church at Ephesus to put on the armor of God. This is no less true today.

[zoegirl]

yep