Evidence for God from Science

Thats a typical slippery slope arguement. Love can exist between two people, but I highly doubt that profound love can exist between a man and an animal.

Alright then, what do you think the Bible says is the reason for marriage and why is it only possible for straight people to have it? If your answer is to have children, I hardly think it seems reasonable to say that a homosexual couple should be forbidden from being in a relationship because it is biologically impossible for them to have children.

To be honest, I really do not know, and I can only guess. But the reason for marriage isn't sexual attraction, I can't remember the exact verses, though, somebody help me out? However, in a homosexual relationship, the only motivation that they could have to marry of their same sex is because of their sexual attraction to their partner. I mean, honestly, would a straight person marry someone of their own sex? Only people who are sexually attracted to the same sex will want to marry likewise.

Anyways, marriage is symbolic of the relationship between Christ (Man) and the Church (Woman), according to Paul. The bible says that marriage is to be a representation of Christ living in humanity, man and woman, not man and man. It is also meant to be the basic foundation upon which to build a family and avoid sexual immorality. But in a homosexual relationship, the symbolism is gone, no family, and the bible specifically condemns homosexual activity as sexual immorality. Gays do have the same biblical rights as straights... the right to marry someone of the opposite sex. But it is not about sexual pleasure, it is about pleasing the Lord.

I, not having a lot of the bible memorized, am probably not the best qualified to answer this question... I hope that someone in the upper realms of this board will jump in...

It is because all lust is sin that marriage was developed... it isn't that heterosexual lust is the only "legitimate" form of lust, it's that God designed the institution of marriage to be the holy bond against lustful immorality. Just as marriage isn't between more than two people or between animals, both of which people can be lustful for, marriage was installed between a man and a woman as a set lock so that human lust could be avoided anywhere else. In a nutshell, humans can lust for just about anything, but marriage is a fixed relationship that prevents that lust from going outside of God's commands.

So what ought a homosexual do? Marry someone of the opposite sex that they are not remotely attracted to and keep away from who they are attracted to (emotionally and spiritually as well as sexually) all because it better aligns with the cute "symbolism" behind marriage? That tends not to work out very well.

I'm all for pleasing God, but I can't picture the Biblical God being delighted in demanding that people lead ficticious and loveless lives.

I didn't say it was necessarily genetic (even though there is a strong probabilility that it is), it's just not a choice. If it was nurture rather than nature it wouldn't make a difference. Even in the cases of it being traced back to some memory as a kid, they didn't have control over it. There have been countless cases of teens who kill themselves because they find themselves attracted to the same sex yet they don't want to be. I've seen in person a case where someone threatened to do so. That does not sound like a choice to me, nor does it sound like they are simply interested in experiencing new things.

Funny you should mention how our brains being hardwired would mean there is no free will. That's something else I've been inquiring about.
Most neuologists who study the brain would probably tell you that most if not all of our characteristics most certainly are hard wired into our brains in one way or another.

What is hard wired is gut instinct and reflex, not relationships. Homosexuality is not a result of nature, and how they couldn't change and control is concerned, I really think that such people need counselling rather than shutting themselves in the closet and cutting out their wrists. I empathize with what they go through. But this isn't again a reason to do something un-natural. If homosexuality is not a choice then what is it? it certainly isn't something you're born with. Those who claim such things also say that there is no such thing as a free will and we will do what our hormones make us do. But the fact is there is a system inherent in us that evaluate decision based upon our morality and its compass. Not on our hormones, if you really believe this than as I quoted above there is no such thing as a good and bad, the courts would have hell of a time deciding what's right and whats not, because to prove something as a crime it has to be established that it was done in conscience. If hormones overrides such conscience than there is no reason we should convict anyone with anything after all this is what their nature led them to do. How can you blame someone for some thing he has no choice in.

This is just a sloppy excuse for justifying homosexuality.

So what ought a homosexual do?

Get counselling

I'm all for pleasing God, but I can't picture the Biblical God being delighted in demanding that people lead ficticious and loveless lives.

Who says he is delighted?

How can you blame someone for some thing he has no choice in.

This is my point exactly. I am saying that homosexuals cannot be blamed for their condition for this very reason. How do you know it's not how they are born? It is not "unnatural" by default, it has to be proven that it is. I've seen plenty of evidence in favor of it being entwined in their being, and none for it being otherwise.

And it isn't a sloppy justification, I think it's pretty solid actually.

Who says he is delighted?

If God is all knowing and good and does not delight in it, then I would imagine, in my humble opinion, that He would be sympathetic to a homosexual's condition rather than declare it an abomination.

This is my point exactly. I am saying that homosexuals cannot be blamed for their condition for this very reason. How do you know it's not how they are born? It is not "unnatural" by default, it has to be proven that it is. I've seen plenty of evidence in favor of it being entwined in their being, and none for it being otherwise.

And it isn't a sloppy justification, I think it's pretty solid actually.

Then God is un-just

I'm not accusing God of being unjust, I'm assuming that there has to be some rational explanation.

But I can't just assume that homosexuality is a choice and an abomination becuase its the only way God could be just in condemning them.

I'm not accusing God of being unjust, I'm assuming that there has to be some rational explanation.

But I can't just assume that homosexuality is a choice and an abomination becuase its the only way God could be just in condemning them.

Sereph, my dear, there is no other way around it. The bible says homosexuality is a sin, if we establish that it can't be controlled then the logical outcome is simple, God is unjust. if we say they have a choice, then it makes sense, but that is something you are not willing to accept.

I am not saying that you are accusing God of being unjust but that is the only implication out of it. You want a God according to what you think is right. God's morality is above us, when he says something is sin, it is. It is not dependent on the factor - if the person doing sin is good or bad - but the sin itself that is bad. It is simply ungodly.

Right, wow Neo-X, I like your debating skills!

Anyways, to have a "sexual orientation" that makes you lust mostly for your same sex doesn't mean that you were born that way. People who desire animals, dead things, and the like weren't born that way, they were somehow subconsciously introduced to those disgusting lusts. Pornography too, the more they allow themselves to view it, the more disgusting the pornography has to be in order to satisfy them. I certainly know a lot of people who have confided in me to say that they honestly could become gay in an instant if they were to let themselves accept their lust. But, some of these same people lead wonderful, fruitful Christian marriages and relationships that are heterosexual and are very happy. Who's to say that homosexuals can't be the same way? If the lustful desires of any given person could shift one way or another, to any manner of perversion, then why not at least try to follow the bible instead of giving into lust?

Anyways, to have a "sexual orientation" that makes you lust mostly for your same sex doesn't mean that you were born that way. People who desire animals, dead things, and the like weren't born that way, they were somehow subconsciously introduced to those disgusting lusts. Pornography too, the more they allow themselves to view it, the more disgusting the pornography has to be in order to satisfy them. I certainly know a lot of people who have confided in me to say that they honestly could become gay in an instant if they were to let themselves accept their lust. But, some of these same people lead wonderful, fruitful Christian marriages and relationships that are heterosexual and are very happy. Who's to say that homosexuals can't be the same way? If the lustful desires of any given person could shift one way or another, to any manner of perversion, then why not at least try to follow the bible instead of giving into lust?

Spot on Kmr, if only people view it in perspective. A lot of people blame gays and so people feeling compassionate about them tend to defend them out of conscience, which is not a bad thing at all. But that is not an reason to justify homosexuality. You can empathize with them, protect them, sure, do so with all the christian spirit of love and grace but that does not mean we endorse or justify homosexuality. As I said before everything begins with choice, choice is born out of preference, preference is based on our evaluation of ourselves and our experiences. Our evaluation in turn is derived from and serves a purpose to our own selves, our basic needs, not only what we want but in preference what we like. Down right below there is nothing but one thing, either we like something or we don't. And hence the wheel goes again and again. It is so much embedded in all of our train of thought that we actually begin to think we are born this way but that is just the opposite of what is real.

If you read about Feral Children, it would surprise you how if you raise a child as an animal he becomes an animal. This is how adaptable human beings are. The other day I was reading about a Feral child Oxana read it and then can some one tell me, is it natural she feels like this.

http://www.mymultiplesclerosis.co.uk/mi ... ldren.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxana_Malaya

There are tons of other examples

If it was found out that homosexuality was not a choice would it not support the claim of the strict calvanist since god has made them to be condemed?

This is my point exactly. I am saying that homosexuals cannot be blamed for their condition for this very reason

Let's get a show of hands. Have you always done what you felt like doing? Have you ever had desires that you knew you shouldn't act on?

Well, according to Seraph and others here, we should be able to act on all our natural inclinations because that is just how we are hard wired. And no one should be able to judge us for these actions. I think we can all agree that this argument can not be followed through consistently.

We can not prove whether homosexuality is an innate behavior. Does it even matter? The confusion is over actions verse inclinations. As a child I had the inclination not to share. Do you have to teach a child to be selfish? No. It is a natural inclination. Do we nurture that behavior? No. Do we just accept it? No. How dare we!! That is how a child is hardwired. I don't think anyone should be condemned for HS tendencies. But to say that acting upon those tendencies is OK, because they didn't ask to be born that way, is not logically consistent. People have the conscious will to choose to act on a desire or deny it. Whether it is punching someone in the face when you get mad, or flipping somebody the finger in traffic. I can't speak for the rest of you, but I'll be honest and say that I've had some tendencies through my life that I am thankful I did not act on. I've never had the tendency to be sexually attracted to the same sex. But I have had tendencies towards the opposite sex, that I did not act on. And the reason I didn't act on them is because I knew they were wrong. Shame on me if I did act on them and then tried to say that God had no right to condemn me because I was just born that way. And shame on anyone who tries to judge God, or justify what He has clearly said is an abomination.

Atta boy jlay, right on time with the oversimplified strawman as always. And a slippery slope fallacy to go with it too!

What the real non-straw version of me is saying is that I have seen plenty of evidence that they could not be straight if they tried due to factors that run much deeper than just what they want to do, whether it be genetic or a testosterone/hormone imbalance or an experience as a young person that scrambles their sex drive, whaterver. The only alternative for them is a life of complete involunatry celebacy. It would be diffent if everyone were capable of being attracted to either sex but more inclined to be attracted to one, but this is not the case. It is not nearly as simple as "resist the tempatation to have sex with men, find the right woman, and everything will be a-okay". It is very different from most sinful everyday temptations that we have like the ones you mentioned. Gay Christians kill themselves over this issue. Why? Because they are told that they are abominable and sick and need to be cured when in reality it doesn't work that smoothly. It disgusts and disturbs me intensely.

And shame on anyone who tries to judge God, or justify what He has clearly said is an abomination.

You remind me of a pharisee and I can barely see you way up there on that horse. Surely you still follow all of the laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy by the book to this day because who would you be to try and justify what God says is an abomination? No, you cherry pick Leviticus 18:22 from a book filled with laws you don't follow. For some reason, that verse is eternal and unchanging while the others were only culturally relevant to the Jewish people. Yes, shame on me for daring to even think about inquiring about something if it seems to me to be inconsistent with my experiences with reality but I'm afraid I'm plauged by these things called "thoughts".

Atta boy jlay, right on time with the oversimplified strawman as always

I didn't see a strawman argument in what jlay posted. I think jlay summed up the issue pretty well. The actions of homosexual behavior is what's wrong. Just like the actions of any other sinful behavior.

The only alternative for them is a life of complete involunatry celebacy

Haven't you heard of any men who lived a homosexual lifestyle, that have given their lives to Christ, and then got married(I mean real marriage to a woman), and live a happy life? Once we become born-again, the Holy Spirit enters us and dwells within us. God can change anyone.

It is very different from most sinful everyday temptations that we have like the ones you mentioned.

Why is homosexual temptation different than any other temptation people have? If we give ourselves over to temptations, we become slaves to them. And sometimes we will do just about anything to justify them.

Gay Christians kill themselves over this issue. Why? Because they are told that they are abominable and sick and need to be cured when in reality it doesn't work that smoothly.

It is truly sad IMO when someone kills himself over any issue. Just because someone says practicing gays are abominable and sick, doesn't mean that their lifestyle isn't wrong. We sometimes, as Christians have a difficult time separating the sin from the sinner. By saying their choices to practice homosexuality is ok is doing more harm to their spiritual lives, then if someone has the guts to speak up to them, with the love of Christ, and tell them there is someone who loves them with the true love they really desire, not the counterfeit love that a homosexual lifestyle brings. Sugar coating a sinful lifestyle doesn't help the person struggling with the temptations. That goes for any sinful lifestyle, not just practicing homosexuality.

Surely you still follow all of the laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy by the book to this day because who would you be to try and justify what God says is an abomination? No, you cherry pick Leviticus 18:22 from a book filled with laws you don't follow.

I don't see cherry picking going on here at all. The topic is "homosexuality", the verse is relevant.

Seraph, it seems to me that you are saying that homosexuality was wrong for the jews, but is ok for us as Christians now, because we don't live under the law, but under grace. Is that what you're saying?