Evidence for God from Science

DivineRageFromSpace wrote:The following questions are irrelevant to those who believe that the masturbation itself is sinful, but allow me to pose them anyway.

1) What if the fantasies behind the masturbation do not involve real people? i.e.; You imagine character(s) from an anime in sexual situations with you?

2) For that matter, what if the fantasies behind the masturbation do not involve you at all, like porn?

3) What if both of the above are true of the fantasies? What if it's only fictional people involved with other fictional people?

The discussion so far has been interesting, but I have yet to see these conditions be brought up...

Ah, but what if we take it a step further. What are the people in our imagination but just representations? Does it matter if our fantasy is based in reality or not? It's still a fantasy and unreal. No one would argue that the concepts we have of people ARE those people (no one sane, I suppose).

Beanybag wrote:Ah, but what if we take it a step further. What are the people in our imagination but just representations? Does it matter if our fantasy is based in reality or not? It's still a fantasy and unreal. No one would argue that the concepts we have of people ARE those people (no one sane, I suppose).

Precisely! Even if the people involved in our fantasies happened to resemble and be based upon someone we knew/had feelings for, it would still be a fictional scenario and not necessarily something we would act upon in the future. I suppose then the question would be whether masturbating to those representations of real people would be considered as defiling a person's image/honor. (Which could have a subjective answer, as it would depend upon whether the person being thought about thinks it would defile their image/honor.)

Also: Since our fantasies are fictitious and only have representations of others at best, is it morally acceptable by Christian standards for a fantasy to involve a member of the same sex, a very young child, etc.? After all, the fantasy is only imagined and will not necessarily be acted upon, so morals that applied to actual sex would be rendered moot.

DivineRageFromSpace wrote:Also: Since our fantasies are fictitious and only have representations of others at best, is it morally acceptable by Christian standards for a fantasy to involve a member of the same sex, a very young child, etc.? After all, the fantasy is only imagined and will not necessarily be acted upon, so morals that applied to actual sex would be rendered moot.

So, you're asking if it's ok to willfully think of a young child, in a sexual manner? You don't see something seriously wrong with that?

RickD wrote:

DivineRageFromSpace wrote:Also: Since our fantasies are fictitious and only have representations of others at best, is it morally acceptable by Christian standards for a fantasy to involve a member of the same sex, a very young child, etc.? After all, the fantasy is only imagined and will not necessarily be acted upon, so morals that applied to actual sex would be rendered moot.

So, you're asking if it's ok to willfully think of a young child, in a sexual manner? You don't see something seriously wrong with that?

Well.. I actually don't see the harm - no one real is being hurt. So long as fantasies like such remain in your mind, I don't see the problem. Can you explain?

RickD wrote:

DivineRageFromSpace wrote:Also: Since our fantasies are fictitious and only have representations of others at best, is it morally acceptable by Christian standards for a fantasy to involve a member of the same sex, a very young child, etc.? After all, the fantasy is only imagined and will not necessarily be acted upon, so morals that applied to actual sex would be rendered moot.

So, you're asking if it's ok to willfully think of a young child, in a sexual manner? You don't see something seriously wrong with that?

I never said that I didn't see anything wrong with that: I'm only trying to reason objectively. But suppose, for the sake of the argument, that I didn't. In fact, let's suppose I was a pedophile. I, as a pedophile, understand that society views my attractions as wrong. I also understand why they do, and would never actually involve a child sexually. But aren't my fantasies different from reality? If I represent a child (fictional or otherwise) in my fantasy and involve them sexually there, has anything wrong been done? The only people who would know I even did this would be myself and God, whereas the same situation in reality would involve myself, God, the child, the child's parents, the child's friends, the cops, etc. . . .

Beanybag wrote:

RickD wrote:

DivineRageFromSpace wrote:Also: Since our fantasies are fictitious and only have representations of others at best, is it morally acceptable by Christian standards for a fantasy to involve a member of the same sex, a very young child, etc.? After all, the fantasy is only imagined and will not necessarily be acted upon, so morals that applied to actual sex would be rendered moot.

So, you're asking if it's ok to willfully think of a young child, in a sexual manner? You don't see something seriously wrong with that?

Well.. I actually don't see the harm - no one real is being hurt. So long as fantasies like such remain in your mind, I don't see the problem. Can you explain?

Don't see the harm, you gotta be kidding.

Do you think people just go out one day and go "I think I will be a paedophile, rapist or a murderer", from my understanding a lot of fantasising is done before any actualisation of these thoughts happens.

Dan

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Beanybag wrote:

RickD wrote:

DivineRageFromSpace wrote:Also: Since our fantasies are fictitious and only have representations of others at best, is it morally acceptable by Christian standards for a fantasy to involve a member of the same sex, a very young child, etc.? After all, the fantasy is only imagined and will not necessarily be acted upon, so morals that applied to actual sex would be rendered moot.

So, you're asking if it's ok to willfully think of a young child, in a sexual manner? You don't see something seriously wrong with that?

Well.. I actually don't see the harm - no one real is being hurt. So long as fantasies like such remain in your mind, I don't see the problem. Can you explain?

Don't see the harm, you gotta be kidding.

Do you think people just go out one day and go "I think I will be a paedophile, rapist or a murderer", from my understanding a lot of fantasising is done before any actualisation of these thoughts happens.

Dan

Sure, but in countries where porn is legal, incidents of rape tend to be lower. It could be possible that fantasizing is causative of such crimes or it might be preventative. There doesn't seem to be any inherent harm, however, until causation can be shown.

Beanybag wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Beanybag wrote:

RickD wrote:

DivineRageFromSpace wrote:Also: Since our fantasies are fictitious and only have representations of others at best, is it morally acceptable by Christian standards for a fantasy to involve a member of the same sex, a very young child, etc.? After all, the fantasy is only imagined and will not necessarily be acted upon, so morals that applied to actual sex would be rendered moot.

So, you're asking if it's ok to willfully think of a young child, in a sexual manner? You don't see something seriously wrong with that?

Well.. I actually don't see the harm - no one real is being hurt. So long as fantasies like such remain in your mind, I don't see the problem. Can you explain?

Don't see the harm, you gotta be kidding.

Do you think people just go out one day and go "I think I will be a paedophile, rapist or a murderer", from my understanding a lot of fantasising is done before any actualisation of these thoughts happens.

Dan

Sure, but in countries where porn is legal, incidents of rape tend to be lower. It could be possible that fantasizing is causative of such crimes or it might be preventative. There doesn't seem to be any inherent harm, however, until causation can be shown.

There might be other factors at play other than porn legalisation like social, religious, education and even environmental. The fact remains that the majority of offenders fantasise before their action.

Dan

Danieltwotwenty wrote:There might be other factors at play other that porn legalisation, but the fact remains that the majority of offenders fantasise before their action.

Dan

But the majority of non-offenders might also fantasize before their non-action. If it isn't causative of anything, what is it to anyone?

Beanybag wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:There might be other factors at play other that porn legalisation, but the fact remains that the majority of offenders fantasise before their action.

Dan

But the majority of non-offenders might also fantasize before their non-action. If it isn't causative of anything, what is it to anyone?

And who is to say they will never offend, also you say MIGHT because you don't know, lets just go on the facts shall we.

BTW I edited my post a bit sorry, thought you hadn't read it yet.

Well you can believe thinking about children in a sexual way is a.o.k., but I am never going to agree with you.


Dan

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Beanybag wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:There might be other factors at play other that porn legalisation, but the fact remains that the majority of offenders fantasise before their action.

Dan

But the majority of non-offenders might also fantasize before their non-action. If it isn't causative of anything, what is it to anyone?

And who is to say they will never offend.

BTW I edited my post a bit sorry, thought you hadn't read it yet.

Well, the point I'm trying to make is: The majority of sex-offenders probably had breakfast the day they offended. Does that mean anything? It might be intuitive to think that fantasizing before the action has something to do with the action, but I just am unsure. It would seem that a whole lot of people fantasize about things and I am not one to sentence them to a crime they never committed - rather I'd commend them for not harming anyone to begin with. I am not saying you have to agree, just voicing my thoughts. Thanks for sharing. :]

Beanybag wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Beanybag wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:There might be other factors at play other that porn legalisation, but the fact remains that the majority of offenders fantasise before their action.

Dan

But the majority of non-offenders might also fantasize before their non-action. If it isn't causative of anything, what is it to anyone?

And who is to say they will never offend.

BTW I edited my post a bit sorry, thought you hadn't read it yet.

Well, the point I'm trying to make is: The majority of sex-offenders probably had breakfast the day they offended. Does that mean anything? It might be intuitive to think that fantasizing before the action has something to do with the action, but I just am unsure. It would seem that a whole lot of people fantasize about things and I am not one to sentence them to a crime they never committed - rather I'd commend them for not harming anyone to begin with. I am not saying you have to agree, just voicing my thoughts. Thanks for sharing. :]

Lol I did it again, I am not having much luck today.

I wonder if we have any forensic psychologist's visit here that would have some more insight into these types of things.


Dan