Evidence for God from Science

Telling indeed, but what does it tell? For me it's that Judeo-Christian thought is inspiring atheism like nothing else the world has seen. No other religion creates hate and disbelief in God as well as Christianity, and maybe Islam, is doing at the moment. It would seem that your religion is not only based on people that agree with you but it is also proven true every time someone disagrees with you.

Prejudicial and arbitrary. Please do tell Pro, what Christian scriptural teachings lead to this hate?

Sorry Pro, but your belief doesn't determine whether someone is genuine. I have given a condition based on the tenets of the faith. You given your opinion, based on....well your obvious prejudices and nothing else. Not to mention you cleverly side stepped the question, how do you unknow someone. Waiting....

That most Christians don't do in depth studies into other religions does not invalidate Christ but is does invalidate their dismissal of other religion.

Actually there is some great scholarship on this. It may actually address what you perceive as Christianity. But it also makes a fallacious assumption that all world religions deserve equal consideration. The fact is that 99.8% of world religions fail to get out of the gate. Frank turek and Ravi Zacharias have some good info on it. if you are as open minded as you expect Christians to be, then go and get Ravi's book, Jesus among other Gods. Put your money where your mouth is. Great read.

jlay wrote:

Telling indeed, but what does it tell? For me it's that Judeo-Christian thought is inspiring atheism like nothing else the world has seen. No other religion creates hate and disbelief in God as well as Christianity, and maybe Islam, is doing at the moment. It would seem that your religion is not only based on people that agree with you but it is also proven true every time someone disagrees with you.

Prejudicial and arbitrary. Please do tell Pro, what Christian scriptural teachings lead to this hate?

The mains ones I hear people getting vocal about are stances on homosexuality, that it should be viewed as a sin and not play a part in marriage, and the pro life stance. I'm not sure the hatred is rooted in scripture but more a reaction to Christianity as a whole, as a working body compromising of billions of people.

I have given a condition based on the tenets of the faith. You given your opinion, based on....well your obvious prejudices and nothing else. Not to mention you cleverly side stepped the question, how do you unknow someone. Waiting....

You don't unknown someone. I don't think I said you unknown someone. Some people claim to know Jesus, some people who have claimed to know Jesus have went on to dismiss Jesus saying they were mistaken and that those who still feel they know that Jesus Christ exists in the Christian sense are all mistaken. Who's closest to the truth, only time will tell.

That most Christians don't do in depth studies into other religions does not invalidate Christ but is does invalidate their dismissal of other religion

Actually there is some great scholarship on this. It may actually address what you perceive as Christianity. But it also makes a fallacious assumption that all world religions deserve equal consideration. The fact is that 99.8% of world religions fail to get out of the gate. Frank turek and Ravi Zacharias have some good info on it. if you are as open minded as you expect Christians to be, then go and get Ravi's book, Jesus among other Gods. Put your money where your mouth is. Great read.

99.8% of world religions fail to get of the gate? which particular gate are you speaking about?
I'll put Ravi and Turek on the reading list. Just read St. Augustine's Confessions and currently reading C.S Lewis' Mere Christianity, Lewis covers to some extent why he choose Christianity over other options.

Proinsias wrote:

Mariolee wrote:The problem I see with people when they doubt God is they stop in the middle of their research. They look at the non-Christian side exclusively, and then they go: "Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, Christianity is a bunch of bull." And they forget to look at it all objectively. They just look at one side and stop. And that's a bit disappointing.

It's pretty tough to look at things objectively when you're not God. There are atheists who have looked at the Christian side, the guy who started the Atheist Toolbox, an old atheist forum I used to frequent, had been an evangelical pastor for many years. Most atheists I know were Christian beforehand, they have both looked at and lived the other side. There does seem to be a rather problematic assumption that anyone who turns from Christ was not really Christian in the first place, whereby a newly converted Christian can dismiss the experiences of someone with many years of experience on them as they must not have been genuine anyway - one man's 6 month long faith in Jesus is more relevant than someone with 30 years under his belt and a current rejection of Jesus.

A lot of Christians become atheists because a lot of people are Christians. I suspect if the majority of the population were atheistic and Christians therefor arose out of atheistic roots, there wouldn't be the same morbid presupposition that 'expanding objectivity' in observing belief systems is only a precursor to atheism. However, the thing that fascinates me is how people act after their 'conversion'. One of the people I used to respect the most went from a Christian to an atheist and lost virtually all of his old friends (Christian and non) because of his manipulative and narcissistic personality that developed out of it. Former atheists I know tend to gain people's respect. Maybe its biased based on who i know, but I haven't seen evidence to indicate the same is as common in the opposite direction, though I know it does happen sometimes.

In order to admit that someone was a 'True Christian', you have to admit to true Christianity (the reality of it, not the belief system). If you cannot admit that someone could truly be a member of God's family, than its hard to say "well, this atheist WAS a true Christian". There would be no such thing. It is quite sane to assume that a "True Christian" could only exist in a world where Christianity was true, and one simple evidence of this is that Christianity condemns lies and Christianity itself would be the mother of lies if it were to be untrue.

If anything modern atheism seems more a rejection of Christianity as opposed to a default position in ignorance of Christianity. Most atheism isn't really based upon a rejection of Brahman or Taoism, it's based upon a rejection of the Judeo/Christian all good, all powerful, all knowing creator God/judge. In short much of the argument seems to be based around - if you reject it then you don't get it, you can't possibly understand me and disagree with me.

Correct. Most atheists, just like most people who move from one worldview or another, always have far more critical things to say about the worldview they just left. They know it better than the new one in many cases and its a way to gain a footing in their new worldview. What I find interesting though isn't the opposition, but the hatred. Hate enters into the realm of spiritual things if you ask me, and I've never seen it in more of its fermenting, acidic nature than when I go to Youtube and read atheistic comments or read books written by atheists in the early 20th century. Its hatred of something without a belief that anything is worth hating. Its condemnation from a mindset that claims to view all things as natural and ammoral.

I think the problem works both ways, most Christians don't get overly deep into studying and experiencing other religions, they right them off as a bunch of bull. If we could all look at each others beliefs objectively, would we still feel the same about our own?

It is true that the problem works both ways. But indeed it does work both ways, and atheists are not left off the hook of responsibility. Many people, atheists included, tend to disregard all additional information once they are grounded in their worldview. But there is a catch here. Christianity (and other Theistic beliefs) can provide one more level of evidence above and beyond the natural order. They can provide revelation. Two atheists might be inside of a box, but have no idea as to where the box is or where it came from. But if one received a letter from a being outside the box documenting both of those topics, he might jump up and become a theist from the Revelation. The other atheist might claim his evidence as fallacious or insane, but he cannot claim that he has confirmation to the opposite position. He has received no letter.

In this sense, atheism and theism are not under the same guidelines for evidence 'objectively' as you put it. And the fact is that no religion on earth has touched more foreign faiths than Christianity, and it still remains a dominant belief system on the planet.

jlay wrote:

Telling indeed, but what does it tell? For me it's that Judeo-Christian thought is inspiring atheism like nothing else the world has seen. No other religion creates hate and disbelief in God as well as Christianity, and maybe Islam, is doing at the moment. It would seem that your religion is not only based on people that agree with you but it is also proven true every time someone disagrees with you.

Prejudicial and arbitrary. Please do tell Pro, what Christian scriptural teachings lead to this hate?

Sorry Pro, but your belief doesn't determine whether someone is genuine. I have given a condition based on the tenets of the faith. You given your opinion, based on....well your obvious prejudices and nothing else. Not to mention you cleverly side stepped the question, how do you unknow someone. Waiting....

That most Christians don't do in depth studies into other religions does not invalidate Christ but is does invalidate their dismissal of other religion.

Actually there is some great scholarship on this. It may actually address what you perceive as Christianity. But it also makes a fallacious assumption that all world religions deserve equal consideration. The fact is that 99.8% of world religions fail to get out of the gate. Frank turek and Ravi Zacharias have some good info on it. if you are as open minded as you expect Christians to be, then go and get Ravi's book, Jesus among other Gods. Put your money where your mouth is. Great read.

Really?

You think most christians know nothing of other religons...What a bigoted statment. Actually at my church we had 2 weeks devoted to learning about other religons, so ya...

And if you want to talk about misinformation lets talk atheist.

One time an atheist said quote "any historian who is smart knows the bible is false, the bible says the world is flat and it is 7 days old". Now every single statment there is incorrect and neither of which is in the bibile. Also eery single war in the OT and every city has been found to be accurate. Let me give you an example.

In 1917 a british luitenant read the biblical story of King david and his sword barrar. The story goes they found a goat path, attacked the phillistines from behind then got the phillistines to assume a large force was attacking them at which time the main isreali force attacked their front and won. The british luitenant following the bibles directions, found the exact same goat path and sent an elite squad of troops to attack the ottomans rear while the main british force attacked their front. That is extreme accuracy if you ask me, to deny that accuracy you are ignoring logic and reason.

I, being a history buff can tell you almost every single historical claim made in the bible is factual and to date not one shred of edivence has been found against the bible historically.

Murray, a lot of "Christians" themselves don't know Christianity in depth, not a huge leap to say they don't know much about other religions. While it's admirable your church did a study of other religions, I think it would be naive to say others are doing the same.

Echoside wrote:Murray, a lot of "Christians" themselves don't know Christianity in depth, not a huge leap to say they don't know much about other religions. While it's admirable your church did a study of other religions, I think it would be naive to say others are doing the same.

^ I agree with you 100%

The problem is most christians put themselves before there religon. A perfect example of this would be the folks from jersy shore. They wear huuge diamond bling crosses and you'll see them praying sometimes, but honestly, if they read the bible i'm sure that they would find that there behavior is unexaptable christian behavior.

The largest concept I think alot of christians need to understand is we are here to serve god, he is not here to serve us.

99.8% of world religions fail to get of the gate? which particular gate are you speaking about?
I'll put Ravi and Turek on the reading list. Just read St. Augustine's Confessions and currently reading C.S Lewis' Mere Christianity, Lewis covers to some extent why he choose Christianity over other options.

Ravi and Turek go in depth on this very thing. In other words, what are the criteria to judge whether a world religion deserves legitimate consideration.

The mains ones I hear people getting vocal about are stances on homosexuality, that it should be viewed as a sin and not play a part in marriage, and the pro life stance. I'm not sure the hatred is rooted in scripture but more a reaction to Christianity as a whole, as a working body compromising of billions of people.

Well, sounds like you admit then that it is arbitrary and prejudicial. That doesn't mean that Christianity 'creates' hate. But the Bible does say this, which actually seems in a way to give evidence that the bible is prophetically correct. And maybe give you a different perspective to view this from.

Proverbs 29:27 The righteous detest the dishonest; the wicked detest the upright.
Matt. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
John 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.

Murray wrote:Really?

You think most christians know nothing of other religons...What a bigoted statment. Actually at my church we had 2 weeks devoted to learning about other religons, so ya...

I said that most Christians don't do in depth studies of other religions, not that they know nothing of them. There are people here who have been Christians for many years still learning loads and getting deeper and deeper insight bringing about even stronger faith and commitment. Other religion also have hidden depths not always easily seen by a cursory glance.

Murray wrote:One time an atheist said quote "any historian who is smart knows the bible is false, the bible says the world is flat and it is 7 days old". Now every single statment there is incorrect and neither of which is in the bibile. Also eery single war in the OT and every city has been found to be accurate. Let me give you an example.

In 1917 a british luitenant read the biblical story of King david and his sword barrar. The story goes they found a goat path, attacked the phillistines from behind then got the phillistines to assume a large force was attacking them at which time the main isreali force attacked their front and won. The british luitenant following the bibles directions, found the exact same goat path and sent an elite squad of troops to attack the ottomans rear while the main british force attacked their front. That is extreme accuracy if you ask me, to deny that accuracy you are ignoring logic and reason.

I, being a history buff can tell you almost every single historical claim made in the bible is factual and to date not one shred of edivence has been found against the bible historically.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that there are not stupid atheists making sweeping statements or soldiers winning battles using information gleaned from ancient texts.

Marcus:

I pretty much agree. Can't say I've had the same experience of people turing to atheism and becoming unpleasant, or more unpleasant than they usually are I think most people who go from being Christian to atheist do go through a phase along the way of heavily criticising religion, it's part of the process. I'm sure others use their atheism to justify behaviour which alienates them from their friends but religious converts can also do this.

jlay wrote:Ravi and Turek go in depth on this very thing. In other words, what are the criteria to judge whether a world religion deserves legitimate consideration

I'll give Jesus Among Other Gods a read. I'll admit that even before ordering it I can sense a strong bias in the title. Setting forth a criteria by which one can measure religion does seem like a rather big task, even moreso when one considers the author was already sold on the winner before he started the book. The title doesn't lend much weight towards objectivity. I did enjoy Ninian Smart's Dimensions of the Sacred as a method of comparing the worlds religions, worth a read if you've not already.

The mains ones I hear people getting vocal about are stances on homosexuality, that it should be viewed as a sin and not play a part in marriage, and the pro life stance. I'm not sure the hatred is rooted in scripture but more a reaction to Christianity as a whole, as a working body compromising of billions of people.

Well, sounds like you admit then that it is arbitrary and prejudicial. That doesn't mean that Christianity 'creates' hate. But the Bible does say this, which actually seems in a way to give evidence that the bible is prophetically correct. And maybe give you a different perspective to view this from.

Proverbs 29:27 The righteous detest the dishonest; the wicked detest the upright.
Matt. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
John 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.

I'd rather not say Christianity creates hatred, more that Christianity seems to be fertile ground for atheism. And that many atheists go through a period of hatred for religion. Buddhism, taoism and the like seem less prone to extreme atheist reactions and in many cases they seem less centred on a truly good God giving people instructions.

On another note is hatred a thing? can it be created? is is not in the Christian sense an absence of love? as darkness can be described as the absence of light.

Proinsias wrote:Marcus:

I pretty much agree. Can't say I've had the same experience of people turing to atheism and becoming unpleasant, or more unpleasant than they usually are I think most people who go from being Christian to atheist do go through a phase along the way of heavily criticising religion, it's part of the process. I'm sure others use their atheism to justify behaviour which alienates them from their friends but religious converts can also do this.

In my experience, some of the people who became atheists were jerks beforehand, and remained jerks afterwards. Others had quite the personality shift towards that direction. Either way, it was sad to watch and both were pretty frustrating.

I'll admit that even before ordering it I can sense a strong bias in the title.

Sounds like you have a strong bias. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Ravi Zacharias was a man who was born and grew up in middle eastern culture. He is more than adept in this, and his book title is only stating the obvious. How does 'Jesus' stack up among the other gods.

MarcusOfLycia wrote:

Proinsias wrote:Marcus:

I pretty much agree. Can't say I've had the same experience of people turing to atheism and becoming unpleasant, or more unpleasant than they usually are I think most people who go from being Christian to atheist do go through a phase along the way of heavily criticising religion, it's part of the process. I'm sure others use their atheism to justify behaviour which alienates them from their friends but religious converts can also do this.

In my experience, some of the people who became atheists were jerks beforehand, and remained jerks afterwards. Others had quite the personality shift towards that direction. Either way, it was sad to watch and both were pretty frustrating.

That's the thing. i have seen some jerks become christians and remain that way ,but, I have also seen many jerks become christians and become nice people. In my life I have never seen a jerk become an atheist and become a ncie person.

narnia4 wrote: Oh, andif the average youtube user is really smarter, wealthier, and better educated than the average person... then heaven help the world.

Perhaps the internet causes temporary ignorance...

I think the problem is very many people who call themselves "Christians" do not know much about their own religion or really know why they chose it. The same thing actually happens to atheists, but since there are not very many of them it happens less and you wouldn't notice it as much. That said, the people on this forum certainly do not go into that category.
But these supposed "Christians" go and do and say very many things that totally contradict Christianity and give it a bad name. Up to the point of people saying things like "Christian terrorist" (Anders Brevik) and so on...
Atheism often comes from these sorts of misunderstandings and misrepresentations.