Evidence for God from Science

I would say people will follow him because for the first 3.5 years of his reign he will seem marvelous, he will bring peace to the middle east he will bring economic relief to the nations. He will seem like he is doing great things for the world. So the secular society that we live in will love this guy. They will take the "mark" whatever that happens to be with pleasure so they can participate in this seemingly wonderful world that he has brought about. Those that don't will be persecuted and not allowed to buy or sell. Now just think of what that will be like. If you don't take the mark you will be outcast you will not be able to feed your family. Remember those that take the mark will be turning their back on God and in turn God will turn his back on them. It will be the last time you can choose.


In Dan 11:36 it says "“The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the TIME OF WRATH is completed, for what has been determined must take place.” So God tells us he will be successful, I believe him.

The second 3.5 years will be totally different. Mr seemingly nice guy will (after his fatal wound and resurrection ) start to persecute the Jews who he established a treaty with in the first 3.5 years. It will be a horrible final 3.5 years. Thats when he will claim to be God as it states above.

I disagree with the Rule from Rome part also.

Murray wrote:?And another quic question, how did you get "his headquarters will be Rome"?

Grizz_1 wrote: I disagree with the Rule from Rome part also.

I didn't say that Rome will be Antichrist's headquarters; This is what I said:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:... In The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy, under the topic Antichrist, there are 10 clues to the Man of Sin's identity:

[clue number] 3. His headquarters will be in Rome. Revelation 17:8-9

Rev 17:9-10 mentions ''the seven hills on which the woman sits'' the woman being a false religious system used by the Beast which is the Antichrist. As for the seven hills, most people know that Rome is built on seven hills...but so are Ascuncion (Paraguay), Barcelona (Spain), Lisbon (Portugal), Cincinnati (USA), Mecca (Saudi Arabia) and Jerusalem (Israel) to name a few...there are about 30 other cities occupying 7 hills. So if we eliminate wacko choices like Ascuncion, Cincinnati and so on, we are left with Rome, Mecca and Jerusalem. The Bible never mentions Mecca, never even hints at it. Which leaves us with Rome and Jerusalem. The clue to which one is in Rev 17:10, ''They are also seven kings...'' these being Julius Caesar, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero (5 kings who have fallen, verse 10), ''and one is'' Domitian (#6, the last Caesar who ruled when John lived). ''And the other is not yet come'' (#7) which some think speaks of the Antichrist to come who will rule a revived Roman Empire.

The above relates very briefly why some think that Rome will be Antichrist's headquarters. There is much more biblical evidence that points to Rome than I've shown above. Carry on!

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:I agree with Grizz that the Antichrist will be a man because a literal reading & understanding of the Bible would suggest nothing else. In The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy, under the topic Antichrist, there are 10 clues to the Man of Sin's identity:

1. He will rise to power in the last days (Daniel 8:19-23).
2. He will rule the whole world (Revelation 13:7).
3. His headquarters will be in Rome (Revelation 17:8-9).
4. He is intelligent and persuasive (Daniel 7:20).
5. He will rule by international consent (Revelation 17:12-13).
6. He will rule by deception (Daniel 8:24-25).
7. He will control the global economy (Revelation 13:16-17).
8. He will make a peace treaty with Israel (Daniel 9:27).
9. He will break the treaty and invade Israel (Daniel 9:26).
10. He will claim to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The number 666 can have many fanciful interpretations as Carpentersson has pointed out. In my lifetime, I have seen it applied to the Pope, Leonid Bresnev, Mao and - lately - to President Obama. While all of this is amusing perhaps the real meaning is hidden for the moment - veiled - until the Restrainer is taken away and the Man of Sin is allowed full rein, and full reign, so to speak. When that time comes, faithful Christians will have no trouble identifying the Antichrist.

FL

Every instance of the word "He" or "She" does not always mean a man, human being, true? And would you apply a literal meaning to these verses?
Revelation 13:1 "...Hehad ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name."
Revelation 17:4 "Sheheld a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries."

Perhaps the real meaning of the number 666 is not hidden for the moment, perhaps not so veiled but revealed from long ago in prophecy.
Perhaps when that time has come already many faithful Christians will have trouble identifying the "Beast" because they confuse scriptures written about "the beast out of the sea" with many other scriptures and different terms like the "man of sin", "antichrist", "The Antichrist", "dragon", "false prophet", etc. Perhaps many will be led astray by numerous movies, TV documentaries, and differing opinions of various authors such as those found in premillenialist Tim LaHaye's "Popular Encylopedia of Bible Prophecy".

On the topic of 666...Why was Revelation 13:18 written and why does it call for a "wise" man?
2 Timothy 4:3-4 "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

carpentersson wrote:Every instance of the word "He" or "She" does not always mean a man, human being, true? And would you apply a literal meaning to these verses?

It seems to me that you really want to force a meaning into 666 and anything we say will not convince you. You want to believe that 666 refers to the web...fine. I am well aware that there are people who are convinced that 666 is a system and not a person, in spite of what the Bible obviously says.

My method of biblical interpretation is the grammatico-historical, also known as the literal or normal method. Which method do you go by?

FL

I didn't say that Rome will be Antichrist's headquarters; This is what I said:

I did not mean to imply you said that. I realize that you were quoting from The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy. My apologies.

I don't see how Rome fits in with some of the other statements made in Rev, but I don't say that it can't be Rome either. Some of my difficulties come in the following verses.

“And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, .where the whore sittest, are peoples, and multitudes and nations and tongues…And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.” Rev 17:15,18 (KJV)

"Merchants of the earth grew rich by the abundance of her delicacies" and, "Your merchants were the worlds great men". Brokers, traders, importers, exporters and entrepreneurs, all became fabulously rich through dealing in this city.

It seem to me that this city, whatever that city is will have the following attributes.

The implication is that this great city is a sea trading city.
Everything is for sale that anyone could ever want to buy in this city.
It is the financial center for world trade and commerce. Businessmen have made vast fortunes by trading with this city.
This city has high towers that reach to the sky.
This city has a multi-cultural population drawn from all corners of the globe.
The headquarters of the government of the Antichrist will rule from its offices in this wealthy city.
This city is described as ‘the Mother of Prostitutes’ and has a golden cup in her hand.
This city is also an evil city as all manner of sin and Godlessness will operate there.

''And the other is not yet come'' (#7) which some think speaks of the Antichrist to come who will rule a revived Roman Empire.

My thoughts are that the Anti-christ will rule the world. Not just a revived Roman empire as it says in Rev 13:7

I don't see how Rome fits. But I could be wrong.

Every instance of the word "He" or "She" does not always mean a man, human being, true? And would you apply a literal meaning to these verses?

Sure why would they not? Unless its obviously referring to something else. In the first verse you quote "He", is referring to the anti-christ who is a man, so "He" is appropriate.

In the second verse "She" refers to a Woman..."The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with..."
so "She" would be appropriate in reference to the word "Woman".

I'm not sure where your confusion lies? You quote Rev 13:18 where it plainly says "...for it is the number of a man"
Now are you saying that when the scripture says "Man" it means something else?

Grizz_1 wrote:

I didn't say that Rome will be Antichrist's headquarters; This is what I said:

I did not mean to imply you said that. I realize that you were quoting from The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy. My apologies.

I don't see how Rome fits in with some of the other statements made in Rev, but I don't say that it can't be Rome either. Some of my difficulties come in the following verses.

“And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, .where the whore sittest, are peoples, and multitudes and nations and tongues…And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.” Rev 17:15,18 (KJV)

"Merchants of the earth grew rich by the abundance of her delicacies" and, "Your merchants were the worlds great men". Brokers, traders, importers, exporters and entrepreneurs, all became fabulously rich through dealing in this city.

It seem to me that this city, whatever that city is will have the following attributes.

The implication is that this great city is a sea trading city.
Everything is for sale that anyone could ever want to buy in this city.
It is the financial center for world trade and commerce. Businessmen have made vast fortunes by trading with this city.
This city has high towers that reach to the sky.
This city has a multi-cultural population drawn from all corners of the globe.
The headquarters of the government of the Antichrist will rule from its offices in this wealthy city.
This city is described as ‘the Mother of Prostitutes’ and has a golden cup in her hand.
This city is also an evil city as all manner of sin and Godlessness will operate there.

''And the other is not yet come'' (#7) which some think speaks of the Antichrist to come who will rule a revived Roman Empire.

My thoughts are that the Anti-christ will rule the world. Not just a revived Roman empire as it says in Rev 13:7

I don't see how Rome fits. But I could be wrong.

Every instance of the word "He" or "She" does not always mean a man, human being, true? And would you apply a literal meaning to these verses?

Sure why would they not? Unless its obviously referring to something else. In the first verse you quote "He", is referring to the anti-christ who is a man, so "He" is appropriate.
I'm sorry but still I just can't find any reference to "antichrist" or "The Antichrist" in Revelation. 13:1 refers clearly to the beast out of the sea because it says "And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name." Further in Revelation 17 we read that the same beast out of the Abyss had seven heads which are seven hills and seven kings. Whatever this is describing, some global power/kingdom, maybe a world ruler of some kind "different from the others", but definitely not any mere human being.


In the second verse "She" refers to a Woman..."The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with..."
so "She" would be appropriate in reference to the word "Woman".
And again above you correctly said that this "mother of prostitutes" is a city and not interpretted literally is a human woman just because it is referred tp as "She".
17:18 "The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

I'm not sure where your confusion lies? You quote Rev 13:18 where it plainly says "...for it is the number of a man"
Now are you saying that when the scripture says "Man" it means something else?

No, but the subject of the verse is "it", being the "number" of the name of beast out of the sea, from the context of the previous verses. The subject here is not "man" and we don't read "it is a man".
Now you might agree that many bible scholars and a host of the saints believe some numbers in the bible have spiritual significance/meaning as well as quantitative value. I don't want to argue numerics but most assign a meaning of "man" or "imperfection" or something similar.
Anyway, for explanation, suppose I told you that a certain television show has a name and a number and the number of that name is a zip code? Would you therefore conclude that the TV show must be filmed in Beverly Hills?
Or, what is the meaning of U2 and the B52's? Do we know those can only be kinds of aircraft?
"This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it (the number) is man's number. His (the beast's) number is 666."

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

carpentersson wrote:Every instance of the word "He" or "She" does not always mean a man, human being, true? And would you apply a literal meaning to these verses?

It seems to me that you really want to force a meaning into 666 and anything we say will not convince you. You want to believe that 666 refers to the web...fine. I am well aware that there are people who are convinced that 666 is a system and not a person, in spite of what the Bible obviously says.

My method of biblical interpretation is the grammatico-historical, also known as the literal or normal method. Which method do you go by?

FL

I like the wording of the Bible Answer Man, Hank Hanegraff for priciples of biblical interpretation, the acronym LIGHTS.
Of course in the book of Revelation we are dealing with visions of the future and the meaning of mysteries so correct interpretation is arguable using any set of principles, even if we all agree on those principles at the outset.

I thought I had been very careful in my wording NOT to force any particular meaning to 666 but instead to challenge assumptions, reasoning from the scriptures for the validity of differing possible interpretations. In every post I have carefully said that I don't see how the beast out of the sea and the number of his name necessarily must refer to a human being/man. Of the 10 scriptures you sighted as referring to the "man of sin", 8 refer instead to the beast out of the sea, 1 scripture is about a "stern faced king" but only one is describing a "man of sin/lawlessness" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4.
I have called attention to the fact that Revelation 13 talks about two different beasts, the latter being the beast out of the earth, that is you might agree also called "the false prophet", later referred to in Revelation 16:13, 19:20 and 20:10, which is present with and commands worship of the first beast. The "abomination of desolation" referred to in Daniel is apparently that same image set up in the temple of the first beast out of the sea, an image which gives it a voice. The false prophet seems to be described in human terms as a man but with an evil spirit who is with the beast and also worshipped as God in the temple. The dragon is said to be Satan. All three, the Dragon, the Beast and the False Prophet are the unholy trinity thrown into the pit.
In the book of Revelation, the beast out of the sea is not so clearly explained as a human man, in fact he apparently has no voice at first, seems to have no physical body and thus needs an image as a representation, is different somehow from all the former rulers, and is continually called "the beast" for some strange reason, maybe a man or possibly something else?

It seems to me that you want to force a meaning onto 666 that it is The One Antichrist which is the same as the two different beasts of revelation which must both be men.

I am not so sure but The Spirit in me causes me to question...why?...and if these 3 in 1 members of the unholy trinity are indeed a mirror opposite of the 3 in 1 Holy Trinity, then how many of those members would have a physical body?
And again, if this all in one=man of sin=The Antichrist=beast of the sea=beast out of the earth=false prophet=whatever can be identified by counting the numerical value of all of the letters of his name totalling 6 hundred 60 and 6, how would anybody know for sure, since you have agreed that method could result in numerous different names? But if the name to be revealed is counted as three 6's in a row as one manuscript is read, then it might be ZZZ in Greek or WWW/VVV in Hebrew. Perhaps there is yet to come some human being named ZZZ or VVV, I don't eliminate that possibility, but the other logical possibility, WWW, is a recognizable name and has already existed since 1990, and I dare say already a world power.

No, but the subject of the verse is "it", being the "number" of the name of beast out of the sea, from the context of the previous verses. The subject here is not "man" and we don't read "it is a man".

How you come up with this bewilders me. But...the subject of the verse is the "Beast" The whole context "of the previous verses" from verse 1 to 18 is explaining who this beast is, what he will do, and who his partner will be. We are told "His" number is 666, we are told that "it is the number of a man".

The Greek used for "man" here is anthrOpou or anthropos meaning "of-human". So that in itself should tell you it is a man, a human. Not some system, religion, internet, country or whatever.

So original Greek translated is " here the wisdom is, The one having the mind let-pebble (let-him-calculate) the number of-the wild beast. Number for OF-human it is, and the number of it 666"

So this beast will be human, how do I know? The scripture plainly says so. So how you come up with anything else surprises me. Remember what Peter tells us in 2 Peter 1:20 I let the Word interpret itself. I don't force any could be's might be's into it.


Do you know that when Peter says "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” The Greek word for private here is idios and means ‘one’s own’. That is, no prophecy of the scripture is of one’s own interpretation. Because if it is left up to us, we will absolutely mess it up which causes confusion and dissension and then division. This has been the curse of the Christian church for centuries. But if we faithfully go back to the scripture and read and understand diligently, we find that in most cases it will interpret itself, thus removing the guesswork and providing us with the truth. And you can see what English word derives from the Greek word, idios!

Maybe you should read 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul tells us all about the "Man of sin be revealed" and the "Son of perdition" and "That wicked" (the lawless one) Who do you think he is talking about? Where ‘the Day of the Lord’, which is the Apocalypse, is mentioned, it says; “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. …And then shall that wicked (the lawless one in Greek) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders."

is continually called "the beast" for some strange reason, maybe a man or possibly something else?

Beast is a figure of speech. Like Jesus is referred to as a Lamb and a Lion,These names of animals are given as figures and also describe the personality of those to which they are connected. So we have lion and lamb referring to Jesus. The serpent and dragon who is Satan. The Beast from the Abyss who is the Antichrist. Lambs among wolves talking of the disciples among demons. Just a figure of speech that are used a lot throughout the Bible.


Again, what TV show titles and band names have to do with the word of God is beyond me.

Carpentersson & Grizz,

I think if we continue discussing like this we will just be going around in circles. I'm talking about Rome, Carpentersson is digital and Grizz is bewildered by it all. Perhaps the best thing to do is to take up a verse-by-verse study of a particular chapter of Revelation together. If you both like, we could start at Revelation 1 and work our way till the end. This way we would all be on the same page.

The choice before you is to start a structured discussion or to stay chaotic.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Carpentersson & Grizz,

I think if we continue discussing like this we will just be going around in circles. I'm talking about Rome, Carpentersson is digital and Grizz is bewildered by it all. Perhaps the best thing to do is to take up a verse-by-verse study of a particular chapter of Revelation together. If you both like, we could start at Revelation 1 and work our way till the end. This way we would all be on the same page.

The choice before you is to start a structured discussion or to stay chaotic.

FL

Please do, i just read Revelation last week and i am struggling to understand it

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Please do, i just read Revelation last week and i am struggling to understand it

OK... we'll just have to wait for Carpentersson & Grizz to chime in.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Carpentersson & Grizz,

I think if we continue discussing like this we will just be going around in circles. I'm talking about Rome, Carpentersson is digital and Grizz is bewildered by it all. Perhaps the best thing to do is to take up a verse-by-verse study of a particular chapter of Revelation together. If you both like, we could start at Revelation 1 and work our way till the end. This way we would all be on the same page.

The choice before you is to start a structured discussion or to stay chaotic.

FL

Yes brothers, for sure, this is a potentially bewildering subject and worthy of a verse by verse study.
I don't see that we're arguing in circles but rather disagreeing and/or misunderstanding.

The topic at the heading is "Does 666 Spell Rockefeller?" so I'm talking about 666 and by what method it might be calculated to any name like Rockefeller or some other, thus identifying the beast out of the sea.

But maybe I'm just wasting my time here to stay on subject?

Yeah - How did you get that his Headquaters will be in Rome from all that.

Also I don't think we need to worry as Christians about who the anti-christ is. If he does not come on the clouds of heaven then he is the beast.

Silvertusk.

Great idea FL verse by verse will be great. x

Should we start a new topic or stay here? I don't think your wasting you time carpentersson but maybe before we get to 666 we should start at the beginning and work our way there. As C S Lewis said in one of his books (as I'm sure others have said also) The longest way round is the shortest way home. Or something like that.

Also I don't think we need to worry as Christians about who the anti-christ is.

No worries its just fun and interesting discussing Revelation.