Evidence for God from Science

Ok brothers, Rick & Danny,

What I said and Byblos has been arguing uptill now is not that the believer does not have secured salvation BUT how does this secure salvation gets lost when one gets apostate, since your are arguing that once we believe it is 100% secured. You say that they were never really Christians to begin with. People turn from christ even after they receive the HS. It is no wonder, no hidden mystery.

I see no indication that they were ever saved. So again there is no turning away from a salvation, but a turning away from 'the faith'.

Danny, turning away from faith would logically result in losing your salvation. I do not get why you would pick such a stance. Faith and salvation go hand in hand. you can't have salvation without faith. Btw I do not see any indication either that these people were "not saved" to begin with. If they had faith, they believed, if they believed then they were saved and granted "secured salvation". Else, why would they turn away from faith if they never had believed to begin with?

The problem is, If you accept that the apostates who turned away were once firm believers, then it creates problems in your original scenario. That salvation is 100 secure. That it can never be taken away from you. As long as we see it individually this is fine. Yes I agree salvation is 100% secure, no doubts. But then this does not explain the apostates - which is not a problem as long as you do not add up your two statements together and make them sound one.

As far as I can understand, your point is

Salvation is secured 100% once you come to believe, - NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS + People who turn away from faith are not Christians and actually never received salvation to begin with. OBVIOUSLY THE SECOND PART OF THE STATEMENT IS THE BASE FOR THE "NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS" PART OF THE FIRST STATEMENT.


Now, how I understand the issue is this:
1. Salvation is secured 100% once you come to believe.
2. If a person turns from Christ, he can lose his salvation 100%, as well.

The only difference is I am not making the supposition, you are making in the second part of your statement. I think a "secure" believer can lose his salvation if he turns from Christ. Which indirectly implies that there are scenario(s) where one can lose his salvation. Even if this scenario is a single item, it still cancels out the statement that "Salvation is secured 100%-no matter what happens".

It is only secured 100% from God's point of view. It certainly is not secured from ours. Our choice still matters.

The idea that those who receive the HS can NEVER turn from God is a noble idea but Human choice still has value and decision making. Otherwise the only conclusion is that after we receive the HS, we become some kind of (ROBOTS), that is we can never deny Christ. The reason I use the word "robot" is that if you imply that a such a function as to deny Christ can never be carried out once we receive salvation, this means that our power to decide in this matters become, over-ridden, over ruled and non-existing.

As Byblos pointed out, you either have to believe 100% secure salvation, even for apostates , or you do not beleive that 100% secure salvation is a stamp which will get you to heaven even if YOU DO NOT WANT TO GO TO HEAVEN.

You can't have both at the same time, there is a fundamental problem here, which you guys are just sliding over. You think it doesn't exist, but it does. I think this reasoning on our side is perhaps a "no brainer" to you. But I really can not see how this could be avoided. This is leaning towards a Calvinist kind of principle-thinking, where some people were already destined to be non-believers even if they tried to believe, they would sooner or later would become apostate. If so then the promise of "secured salvation" was never true for them. If this is so, then really God is unjust.

Please if you will elaborate

Q1. How do we know, affirm 100% that we have 100% secured salvation? Other than our belief, fruits or the gifts of the spirit, since I have seen people who had these and later turned from Christ.

Q2. When do we receive this salvation?

Q3. Any biblical support that once I receive Christ, I will never become an apostate?

Q4. How do we know that a person who is now an apostate was a never a christian to begin with?

Q5. How and from where in scriptures, do we justify that the person who is now an apostate, but was a believer 10 years ago, had the experience of the HS and may even did ministry work - was never promised salvation to begin with? Otherwise by your stance he can't lose it once he receives it.

Q6. Here is a greater problem but an extension of the original point I am making. What if I DO NOT turn apostate, lets say, I am BORN AGAIN beleiver, the HS dwells in me, I am a bible teacher, I believe 100% I am saved, I have secured salvation, I have accepted Christ as my savior, I live by the Word of God. I am doing all I can to walk a christian life because it feels wonderful to be with God. Now for some reason I - in a fit of rage - murder my wife, because I have evidence that she is cheating on me. I am enraged, jealous and very angry. I kill her. Then I hide the body and I do not report anything. I feel guilty but at the same time my anger is justified in my own mind. However the Word of God I have read all my life tells me I have done something very wrong. I am not sorry for my actions nonetheless for the sake of it I ask God for forgiveness, I can not report the murder because I have to raise my kids. It is convenient for me to not tell anyone. So, my question, "Have I lost my secured salvation?". I have done a crime, and while it is hideous it is by definition a crime for which there is forgiveness, since by the gospel, there is only one sin that is unforgivable by God. Regardless of whether I feel guilty and sorry OR I do not, is my salvation secure?.

Q7.What if I do not feel sorry at all. let us up the stakes, what if in the same scenario described above, I kill my wife and my children as well. Because I find out they are not my children either and she has cheated on me a number of times. But since I have not turned apostate, have not "turned away" from the Faith. I can still ask for God's forgiveness. Since by definition again, this sin is pardonable. Is it not? and even if it doesn't, it should not matter, because I have "secured salvation" I believe in Christ, the HS will dwell in me - as per your account it is a guarantee of our inheritance and no matter what sin we do, we can be saved. Our salvation does not rests on our works but on God's grace. So Do I still have secure salvation?

Q8. What if, in the light of Q6 & Q7, I am not sorry at all and I do not repent. But I do not turn apostate as well. Let us say, this is that sin for which I always fought in myself and being stubborn did not listen to the voice of God and never repented. Will my "secure salvation" be still in place?

Q9. Can the HS STILL dwell in me, if I do three murders and do not repent?

Q10. Can the HS STILL dwell in me if I do three murders and repent just outwardly?

Q11. Can the HS STILL dwell in me if I do three murders and just think that I am forgiven, when in reality I have not been forgiven because I was not truly sorry. But I believe 100% I am saved. I am deceiving myself, though unintentional-ly. Is there a way to know am I saved or not? Does my believe - in any way - affect my salvation?

For any question I do not think that mentioning Saul aka Paul as a tormentor of Christians would be a fitting example since we are talking about a BORN AGAIN believer to begin with.

Now before anybody jumps up and says these are straw-men, let me tell you, they are not, these are perfectly, practical scenarios which can very well happen in everyday life. All I am asking you is to tell me, how does your argument applies here and what does it imply. Simple as that. You may be asked this question from ex-murderer who is in jail as well as a student in a seminary, who knows? So my humble request is that you do explain what happens here according to your stance. How does your theory apply here. Please be specific with scriptural backing up if you would?

And if someone thinks that a BORN AGAIN believer can't possibly do any such heinous things, then that my friend is just a meaningless statement. Human choice is always there. We are not automated Christians at any time in our life, we can always do bad, evil, criminal, the choice is ours.

My apologies for the long post, do not mind the CAPS, I have just used them to indicate emphasis, that is all. I have asked these questions to avoid time wasting arguments in later posts on this thread. If you answer, I will at least know your stance in a more detailed and precise manner.

Brother Neo, I’m afraid your entire post misses the point.

Danny, turning away from faith would logically result in losing your salvation. I do not get why you would pick such a stance. Faith and salvation go hand in hand. you can't have salvation without faith. Btw I do not see any indication either that these people were "not saved" to begin with. If they had faith, they believed, if they believed then they were saved and granted "secured salvation". Else, why would they turn away from faith if they never had believed to begin with?

I don’t know where you are getting this “would logically result in” a loss of salvation from. They will fall away from *the* faith. Hence *their* ‘faith’ was counterfeit. 1 John 2:19. They have turned away from the Christianity of the Bible, Neo. They never were born again. If they were born again, they wouldn’t fall away and would not be put to shame.

Your scenarios are mere complications set up without any scriptural warrant whatsoever. No born again believer turns from Christ.

Believers will not be ashamed
Romans 10:11

All who believe the Son *have* eternal life
John 6:39,40

We are justified by the faith *of* Christ, and not by ourselves
Galatians 2:16 Ephesians 2:8

A Christian does not stay saved through human effort
Galatians 3:2,3

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise
Ephesians 1:12,13,14

Nothing can spoil the inheritance
1 Peter 1:4,5

We are born again of an imperishable seed, and the word of God stands
1 Peter 1:23,24,25

Perseverance is grounded in the believer’s union with Christ
Colossians 3:1,2,3,4

Christ keeps us strong
1 Corinthians 1:8

Logically speaking, since scripture is the final authority, and since scripture tells us that all who believe will never be spoiled or put to shame, and since scripture tells us that all who leave the fold were never really *of* the fold, isn’t it logical to conclude that those who turn away were never really born again? That being, logically speaking, the best explanation given what the scriptures tell us.

DannyM wrote:

Byblos wrote:Which is EXACTLY the point I'm trying to make Danny. If they abandoned the faith and were never saved, what does that say about that absolute assurance they THOUGHT they had at the time they thought they were believers? It becomes meaningless Danny because NONE of us can be sure we will never abandon the faith and prove we were never saved, none (unless of course we have a private and direct revelation from God). There have been many who were in that position who will tell you they had all the assurance in the world to later find out they never had it because they proved to themselves they were never saved. In any case, I think we've beaten the issue to death at this stage but I'm sure we'll have to revisit later on as we go.

Brother, how can I ever abandon the faith? Why would I ever abandon the faith? Once born again, you have the seed of God 1 John 3:9 I'm off to bed and will try to answer more fully tomorrow the contention that the stragglers 'had' or 'thought they had' assurance.

I want to seriously challenge this notion that people who turned from the faith ‘thought they had’ assurance. We are called to test our faith.

2 Corinthians 13:5

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves …

Galatians 6:4,5

Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else,
5 for each one should carry his own load

Hebrews 3:12

See to it. Brothers, that none of you has a sinful,
unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.

Here we have clear guidance to test ourselves. We know that the scriptures tell us that those who fall away were never really of the fold to begin with. But we are allowing apostates and counterfeits to tell us that they ‘thought’ they had assurance? I’d like to tentatively suggest they had no such assurance, and if they had read the scriptures they would have known this. If they did indeed read the scriptures then they would have been shown that they were not of the fold. Thus the scriptures helped them to understand that they were never a born again believer. No-one who is born of God is without His seed. 1 John 3:9

Brother Danny,

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."

This verse does not say that their faith had ALWAYS been counterfeit. It says that they were not of us. This state of being "not of us" could be achieved at any point when you have real faith and decide to let it go. As soon as you let go the faith and turn from it, you are not part of the body of Christ anymore and hence "they were not of us" ...the word 'really' doesn't actually appear in all translations, but anyways, this alone, is trivial. The point is, this verse is open to interpretation. It might not be the same way you are reading it. Because then it also implies divine election, which would go against John 3:16, this however is another point but it does makes some questions.

To me the verse simply means that whoever left was "not of us" anymore rather than he was "not of us" from the beginning, at least I do not see the "beginning" part. And by their apostasy we know that all who are in the church are not true believers. Apostle John is indicating to a past incident, where people left the church, hence the past tense. Brother Danny, as far as I see, this verse does not dictate what you are implying. I do not think this verse is a "universal truth, applicable at all times" statement. More of a general indicator to the fact that people left because they lost their faith. Since they did not believe anymore, there is no reason that they would remain in the church.

All of rest of your post stands on this premise and I am afraid in light of the above, my questions do stand.

Minor Edit

Your scenarios are mere complications set up without any scriptural warrant whatsoever. No born again believer turns from Christ.

No brother Danny, they are real life problems and one should be able to answer them, I am sure you can but may be you think it is pointless at this time. However, my questions even if they are complicated must have an answer from your position. You would certainly know how to address them. Also why would a real life crime-problem require scriptural warrant? It is a problem, we need to decide whether the scripture can answer this or not.

As for no born again believer turns from Christ, I am not sure this statement can be concluded from scriptures decisively as I showed you above.

Logically speaking, since scripture is the final authority, and since scripture tells us that all who believe will never be spoiled or put to shame, and since scripture tells us that all who leave the fold were never really *of* the fold, isn’t it logical to conclude that those who turn away were never really born again? That being, logically speaking, the best explanation given what the scriptures tell us.

To be clear my objections are not that somebody can not have secure salvation, rather when and how does this apply to everyone and under which circumstances it wouldn't. I am afraid the scripture is not quite clear on the latter - contrary to as you imply.

Note: I have edited my post a couple of times.

Neo,

1 John 2:19 (NIVUK)

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

John says those who leave the faith leave having never been saved to begin with, based on the principle that "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us".

How you glean this:

To me the verse simply means that whoever left was "not of us" anymore rather than he was "not of us" from the beginning, at least I do not see the "beginning" part.

from that scripture is beyond me. There is not the slightest implication here that these people were saved at some point and then now all of a sudden unsaved; quite the opposite!

…For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

I hate to use the word ‘clear’ here, but could it really be any clearer?

Brother Danny, as far as I see, this verse does not dictate what you are implying. I do not think this verse is a "universal truth, applicable at all times" statement. More of a general indicator to the fact that people left because they lost their faith. Since they did not believe anymore, there is no reason that they would remain in the church.

All of rest of your post stands on this premise and I am afraid in light of the above, my questions do stand.

The verse fits in pretty nicely with my argument, as it happens. I’ve given ample scripture emphasising the believer’s security. All you need do is come back with the scripture that shows my position wrong. I might be wrong. But I don’t think I’ve been shown wrong thus far.

John 5:24

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life

The secured Christian has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no-one can snatch them out of my hand

Do you think the opposition is included here in “no-one”?

Brother Neo, regarding your questions on sin, I’ve already said the sin/not sin scales do not need to be in credit in order to guarantee what is already guaranteed. How much sinning are you permitted? What’s the cut off point? Are some sins beyond some ‘scope’ of what Christ came to cover? How do you expect to keep a favourable balance on your sin/not sin scales? How would you achieve this when you are up against such overwhelming odds? Romans 7:14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23

And if we are saved by the faithfulness of Christ, how can we penetrate this phenomenal act of grace?

Guys,
As I said before, none of us is going to convince another that his position in this is in error. We need to pray that God will speak to us and show us where we are in error. If we have the Holy Spirit of God in us, He will show us where we are in error.
With that, I'll try to answer your questions.

People turn from christ even after they receive the HS. It is no wonder, no hidden mystery.

Why do you believe this? Danny has already proven from scripture, that once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer, The Holy Spirit finishes the work He began.Philippians 1:6

The problem is, If you accept that the apostates who turned away were once firm believers, then it creates problems in your original scenario.

Apostates were NEVER saved. They turned away from their "faith", which is a false belief system. They never had a redeeming faith in Christ.

Salvation is secured 100% once you come to believe, - NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS + People who turn away from faith are not Christians and actually never received salvation to begin with. OBVIOUSLY THE SECOND PART OF THE STATEMENT IS THE BASE FOR THE "NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS" PART OF THE FIRST STATEMENT.

Once a true believer believes, he has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. God will persevere in that believer. The believer in and of himself can never gain nor keep salvation. It is the work of the Holy Spirit of God.

Now, how I understand the issue is this:
1. Salvation is secured 100% once you come to believe.
2. If a person turns from Christ, he can lose his salvation 100%, as well.

If a person "turns from Christ", that person never actually turned to Christ in the first place. And shows he was never saved.

It is only secured 100% from God's point of view. It certainly is not secured from ours. Our choice still matters.

And here's where you are missing the mark. Let me ask you this, neo-x: Once we are in heaven, do we have free-will?
Once we believe, and the Holy Spirit is indwelling us, God begins His work of conforming us to Christ's image. Our sinful nature is at odds with God within us. God's will is certainly more powerful than ours.

As Byblos pointed out, you either have to believe 100% secure salvation, even for apostates , or you do not beleive that 100% secure salvation is a stamp which will get you to heaven even if YOU DO NOT WANT TO GO TO HEAVEN.

Again, anyone has free will, but our free will doesn't "trump" God's will.

Q1. How do we know, affirm 100% that we have 100% secured salvation? Other than our belief, fruits or the gifts of the spirit, since I have seen people who had these and later turned from Christ.

I can know that I have eternal assurance in Christ, because The Holy Spirit of God in me, speaks to my spirit, confirming God's promises of the perseverance of the Holy Spirit in me. If one doesn't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then one can't claim absolute assurance.

Q2. When do we receive this salvation?

When we trust on Christ ALONE. That His redeeming work is all efficacious.

Q3. Any biblical support that once I receive Christ, I will never become an apostate?

All the biblical verses that Danny quoted, are God's promises that a true believer will always be kept secure by the Holy Spirit.

Q4. How do we know that a person who is now an apostate was a never a christian to begin with?

Once God begins His work in a believer, He will complete it. Do the fallen angels know who Christ is? What happened to them. Knowing who Christ is, isn't the same as accepting what Christ did, as the only way of eternal life.

Q5. How and from where in scriptures, do we justify that the person who is now an apostate, but was a believer 10 years ago, had the experience of the HS and may even did ministry work - was never promised salvation to begin with? Otherwise by your stance he can't lose it once he receives it.

People can experience the Holy Spirit, and not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. People go to church every day, see the Holy Spirit at work there, and still not be saved. Because someone did ministry work, or even cast out demons, doesn't mean that person is saved.Matthew 7:22-23

Q6.

Once a believer's salvation is secure, he can't do anything to change that. He did nothing to gain that salvation in the first place. We all sin once we are saved. Our old sin nature is still there until our redemption is complete, after we leave this mortal body.

Q7.What if I do not feel sorry at all. let us up the stakes, what if in the same scenario described above, I kill my wife and my children as well. Because I find out they are not my children either and she has cheated on me a number of times. But since I have not turned apostate, have not "turned away" from the Faith. I can still ask for God's forgiveness. Since by definition again, this sin is pardonable. Is it not? and even if it doesn't, it should not matter, because I have "secured salvation" I believe in Christ, the HS will dwell in me - as per your account it is a guarantee of our inheritance and no matter what sin we do, we can be saved. Our salvation does not rests on our works but on God's grace. So Do I still have secure salvation?

The child of God under grace has been delivered from the burden of works. He is not striving to be accepted in Christ(Ephesians 1:6). The child of God is not now called upon to live by the energy of his own flesh. He lives in the power of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Of course we can ask for God's forgiveness when we commit a sin. But remember, God has already washed away ALL
your sins. Even future sins.

neo-x, I'll ask you the same question I asked Byblos: Do you have absolute assurance?

(let me re word) The only scripture I'm aware of that says there is evidence other than one's own faith, that someone is saved is from Hebrews 12:7

"Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all." (Hebrews 12:7)
Obviously there are some contextual considerations here. But, if we apply this verse to all believers, we see that no discipline from God is evidence of no conversion. No indwelling of the spirit. A believer WILL be disciplined.

Can a believer commit three murders and still be a believer? I suppose they could. But if they are a true believer, they will undergo chastening from God. Having experienced God's chastening first hand, I can speak to how a believer can be living in rebellion to the knowledge he has, and to the results of doing such.

Hebrews also deals with the issue of apostasy. It's not an easy subject, and I don't pretend to be able to give you a succinct answer that would clarify every question. However, if one believes that a believer can lose their salvation by crossing some sin threshold, I would equally challenge them to show us where this threshold lies, and how they are certain they haven't crossed it as well.

Q1. How do we know, affirm 100% that we have 100% secured salvation? Other than our belief, fruits or the gifts of the spirit, since I have seen people who had these and later turned from Christ.

The 'knowing' comes by faith, and faith by hearing and believing the truth of Christ. You say, 'other than our belief,' in a way that seems to diminish faith.
Regarding those who later turned away. That brings in a myriad of possibilities. Was their faith genuine? We can't 'know' for sure. The same gray area you use for your case, also exists here. I can assure you of this, I have never met a person who said, "I used to be a Christian," who has ever been able to convince me under the most basic scrutiny. EVERY time, through questioning, I've been able to reveal the deception of their supposed belief.

Another question this brings up. Can a person be truly saved, and then come do deny their real salvation, yet still be soundly saved? I know of people who though brain trauma, or drug abuse, and mental illness who can't remember their own parents. So, I would suppose this is possible. Although, all the instances I've come across seem to lend themselves to the first example.

Also, if someone can be truly saved, and then genuinely lose their salvation, then they are without hope. If we follow that line of interpretation consistently through. "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance." (Heb. 6:4-6)

If we believe that every person has the capacity for faith, then we can also state that faith can be rejected. And that the rejection is not dependent on someone being a convert. Obviously the reformed view (which I reject) is that faith is essentially implanted for the elect, and absent for the reprobate. Of course, if this is the case, then someone losing their salvation is even more absurd.

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).
"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14).

Are these official catholic doctrines saying that if someone has absolute assurance, that he should be cursed by God?

Canon 24:  "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

This official catholic doctrine says works are necessary to preserve and increase God's justice.

Canon 30:  "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."

Christ's sacrifice isn't sufficient?

Canon 33:  "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.

Byblos, I urge you to pray to God for deliverance from this that has hold of you. If you pray for God's discernment, and deliverance, He is faithful, and will do it. God will lead you to salvation through Christ, and freedom from the burden of works.

Rick, I don't think Byblos holds to such dogma.

RickD wrote:

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).
"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14).

Are these official catholic doctrines saying that if someone has absolute assurance, that he should be cursed by God?

Canon 24:  "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

This official catholic doctrine says works are necessary to preserve and increase God's justice.

Canon 30:  "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."

Christ's sacrifice isn't sufficient?

Canon 33:  "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.

Byblos, I urge you to pray to God for deliverance from this that has hold of you. If you pray for God's discernment, and deliverance, He is faithful, and will do it. God will lead you to salvation through Christ, and freedom from the burden of works.

Can we please just dispense with the sermonizing? I mean come on, I have been a member of this and other Protestant sites for years. Do you honestly believe I haven't seen these arguments or not considered them a thousand times over? If anything so far in this thread I have argued nothing but to try to STRENGTHEN YOUR position and you refuse to see it. You still do not get that as long as you argue that someone can prove they were never saved then you do not believe in secured salvation my friend. There CANNOT be absolute assurance if that assurance can turn out to be a false one. Absolute assurance carries the burden of 'NO MATTER WHAT' and that does include one proving they were never saved, otherwise you're adding a condition to NO MATTER WHAT. Anyway, I'm preparing a post to present my case, it will take a few more days.

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).
"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14).

Are these official catholic doctrines saying that if someone has absolute assurance, that he should be cursed by God?

Canon 24:  "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

This official catholic doctrine says works are necessary to preserve and increase God's justice.

Canon 30:  "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."

Christ's sacrifice isn't sufficient?

Canon 33:  "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.

Byblos, I urge you to pray to God for deliverance from this that has hold of you. If you pray for God's discernment, and deliverance, He is faithful, and will do it. God will lead you to salvation through Christ, and freedom from the burden of works.

Can we please just dispense with the sermonizing? I mean come on, I have been a member of this and other Protestant sites for years. Do you honestly believe I haven't seen these arguments or not considered them a thousand times over? If anything so far in this thread I have argued nothing but to try to STRENGTHEN YOUR position and you refuse to see it. You still do not get that as long as you argue that someone can prove they were never saved then you do not believe in secured salvation my friend. There CANNOT be absolute assurance if that assurance can turn out to be a false one. Absolute assurance carries the burden of 'NO MATTER WHAT' and that does include one proving they were never saved, otherwise you're adding a condition to NO MATTER WHAT. Anyway, I'm preparing a post to present my case, it will take a few more days.

Is this official, unrecanted Catholic dogma,or not? If you hold to the Catholic Church as the ultimate authority, then how do you explain this? This is the works based salvation that I've been talking about.
Byblos, you agreed with me, I thought, that neither of us is going to convince the other that his position is incorrect. You also agreed, I thought, that you would pray, and seek God's guidance on this issue. Have you earnestly prayed,and asked God to speak to you on this issue? Are you being honest with yourself and God?

DannyM wrote:Rick, I don't think Byblos holds to such dogma.

Danny, Byblos said the Catholic church is the ultimate authority. This is their official dogma. This is what I've been saying all along. Catholicism is a works based religious system. Anyone that puts his faith in a works based system, cannot have absolute assurance of salvation. God offers salvation based on the atoning sacrifice of Christ, alone. Adding anything to that, is putting one's faith in something other than Christ.

Brothers... chill...

Byblos wrote:You still do not get that as long as you argue that someone can prove they were never saved then you do not believe in secured salvation my friend. There CANNOT be absolute assurance if that assurance can turn out to be a false one. Absolute assurance carries the burden of 'NO MATTER WHAT' and that does include one proving they were never saved, otherwise you're adding a condition to NO MATTER WHAT. Anyway, I'm preparing a post to present my case, it will take a few more days.

John, I am challenging this assertion that some counterfeit had absolute assurance. Some straggler saying he 'had' absolute assurance does not demand my attention. And it does not put a dent in secured salvation.

And personal incredulity does not constitute an objection.

RickD wrote:

DannyM wrote:Rick, I don't think Byblos holds to such dogma.

Danny, Byblos said the Catholic church is the ultimate authority. This is their official dogma. This is what I've been saying all along. Catholicism is a works based religious system. Anyone that puts his faith in a works based system, cannot have absolute assurance of salvation. God offers salvation based on the atoning sacrifice of Christ, alone. Adding anything to that, is putting one's faith in something other than Christ.

I know Byblos is a Catholic, Bro, but I'm pretty sure he would not go along with any doctrine geared towards a works-based salvation; especially some of the nonsense that came out of Trent. I don't want to presume to speak for another Brother, Rick, but these are firm impressions I have of Byblos.

Hey, John! If I'm wrong then I am sorry.

DannyM wrote:

RickD wrote:

DannyM wrote:Rick, I don't think Byblos holds to such dogma.

Danny, Byblos said the Catholic church is the ultimate authority. This is their official dogma. This is what I've been saying all along. Catholicism is a works based religious system. Anyone that puts his faith in a works based system, cannot have absolute assurance of salvation. God offers salvation based on the atoning sacrifice of Christ, alone. Adding anything to that, is putting one's faith in something other than Christ.

I know Byblos is a Catholic, Bro, but I'm pretty sure he would not go along with any doctrine geared towards a works-based salvation; especially some of the nonsense that came out of Trent. I don't want to presume to speak for another Brother, Rick, but these are firm impressions I have of Byblos.

Hey, John! If I'm wrong then I am sorry.

Danny, If that is official Catholic dogma that I posted, then anyone that doesn't believe it, is anathema, according to the Catholic church. Unless the Catholic church recanted, and changed its position. Either it's official Catholic doctrine, or it's not. Byblos keeps saying he doesn't believe in a works based salvation, and he also says that the Catholic church is the final authority. That's a contradiction.