Evidence for God from Science

Seraph wrote:

DannyM wrote:It's always lovely to get such a tirade from a 'liberal' Christian. Confidence in Christ, confidence in one's security, these things are quite often looked down upon by the so-called liberal side of Christianity. Trouble is, the 'all-inclusive' 'liberal' Christians have no comfort for you; they won't tell you you're lost.

I know where my money is when spotting the smug ones ...

Well I don't try to conform to the image of a "liberal" Christian. And this is why I hate the fact that tone of voice isn't transmitted through posts. That wasn't supposed to be a tirade, I'm sorry it looked like one Danny. I wasn't aiming that at you and wasn't saying you were guilty of what I was describing, it was against a much more extreme version of the "Us vs Them" idea. That said, I still stand by the content of that post. If that makes me too "liberal", fine. I don't equate "liberal" with "bad".

I presumed to take offence as I thought it must've been aimed at me since I was the one who dared to suggest a split. I'm afraid it is you reading an "us vs. them" attitude into the equation; nobody is against anybody. I want as many of "them" in my camp as is possible. There is no smugness, there is no triumphal attitude on Christianity’s part here. That said, I'm sorry if I jumped on you needlessly; it just felt like a classic liberal ploy.

Gman wrote:

Johnny916 wrote:I'm more Orthodox and traditional. I have strict views against what I would call outside practices. If it be something liberal or from a different belief system. It's hard to bridge the gaps.

That's great.. And you are correct not to take on any outside practices.. We are to be Torah observant in everything we do. That is where mainline Christianity missed the mark. Again, if you went to my synagogue you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. We recite the Shema, pray toward the ark.. We are NOT liberal either.

Wrong. We do not have to observe the Torah at all in mainline Christianity - We are under the new Convenant - so we don't have to worry about all the laws and regulations of Leviticus or kosha foods - or praying towards the Ark. Christianity in its purest form is Jesus centred worship full stop.

Silvertusk.

Silvertusk wrote:

Gman wrote:That's great.. And you are correct not to take on any outside practices.. We are to be Torah observant in everything we do. That is where mainline Christianity missed the mark. Again, if you went to my synagogue you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. We recite the Shema, pray toward the ark.. We are NOT liberal either.

Wrong. We do not have to observe the Torah at all in mainline Christianity - We are under the new Convenant - so we don't have to worry about all the laws and regulations of Leviticus or kosha foods - or praying towards the Ark. Christianity in its purest form is Jesus centred worship full stop.

Exactly. I was reading this thread and found all this...well...weird. I do not see what any of it has to do with Christianity in its purest form

I see watcha did there.

Agreed with You?

Your response seems laced with some suspicion. Care to clarify?

Silvertusk wrote:

Wrong. We do not have to observe the Torah at all in mainline Christianity - We are under the new Convenant - so we don't have to worry about all the laws and regulations of Leviticus or kosha foods - or praying towards the Ark. Christianity in its purest form is Jesus centred worship full stop.

Silvertusk.

So you don't think Jesus was a Torah observant Jew? Also Christ did not come to destroy Torah.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

We can actually obey the entire law when we obey Christ. True or not true? While following the kosher food laws and others it has nothing to do with salvation but respect for the law. And we would probably benefit our bodies when we obey the kosher laws too. As for praying towards the ark, do you not stand and pray towards the front of the Church or do you sit and turn your head away? Again, those things are done out of respect, not that we fulfill the law when we do such things.

DannyM wrote:

Silvertusk wrote:

Gman wrote:That's great.. And you are correct not to take on any outside practices.. We are to be Torah observant in everything we do. That is where mainline Christianity missed the mark. Again, if you went to my synagogue you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. We recite the Shema, pray toward the ark.. We are NOT liberal either.

Wrong. We do not have to observe the Torah at all in mainline Christianity - We are under the new Convenant - so we don't have to worry about all the laws and regulations of Leviticus or kosha foods - or praying towards the Ark. Christianity in its purest form is Jesus centred worship full stop.

Exactly. I was reading this thread and found all this...well...weird. I do not see what any of it has to do with Christianity in its purest form

We need to be more careful before we judge. Look what I wrote previously.

Gman wrote:

Silvertusk wrote:

Wrong. We do not have to observe the Torah at all in mainline Christianity - We are under the new Convenant - so we don't have to worry about all the laws and regulations of Leviticus or kosha foods - or praying towards the Ark. Christianity in its purest form is Jesus centred worship full stop.

Silvertusk.

So you don't think Jesus was Torah observant? Also Christ did not come to destroy Torah.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

We can actually obey the entire law when we obey Christ. True or not true? While following the kosher food laws and others it has nothing to do with salvation but respect for the law. And we would probably benefit our bodies when we obey the kosher laws too. As for praying towards the ark, do you not stand and pray towards the front of the Church or do you sit and turn your head away? Again, those things are done out of respect, not that we fulfill the law when we do such things.

Just curious G, do messianic Jews believe in the Trinity and the divinity of Christ?

Byblos wrote:
Just curious G, do messianic Jews believe in the Trinity and the divinity of Christ?

Yes they do.. If they didn't I wouldn't be there. Also they do NOT support dual covenant theology which states that Jews can be saved outside of Christ. I would never support such a thing.

If anything the services there resemble a Catholic mass, it's just that it is done by Jews.. In Hebrew instead of Latin. It's very compelling.

Gman wrote:

Byblos wrote:
Just curious G, do messianic Jews believe in the Trinity and the divinity of Christ?

Yes they do.. If they didn't I wouldn't be there. Also they do NOT support dual covenant theology which states that Jews can be saved outside of Christ. I would never support such a thing.

If anything the services there resemble a Catholic mass, it's just that it is done by Jews.. In Hebrew instead of Latin. It's very compelling.

Interesting. What about animal sacrifice for atonement, Passover, Yum Kippur, etc. How are they viewed/practiced?

Byblos wrote:
Interesting. What about animal sacrifice for atonement, Passover, Yum Kippur, etc. How are they viewed/practiced?

That is the best part... It's practiced in recognition of Yeshua (Jesus) as being the fulfillment of those festivals. It augments the festivals in light of Christ the way it probably should have been done in the past. It is so amazing to see Jews celebrate it in light of Yeshua.. It has brought me into a deeper relationship with Him..

I'll give you one example. When Jews celebrate passover called "Pesach" in Hebrew they make a cracker called matzah break it and give it to the congregation. This symbolizes communion where Christ's body was sacrificed as the passover lamb as it was in the exodus.

Here is the cool thing about matzah. If you notice it has strips on it and it is also pierced and is unleavened (sinless). So who also had strips and was pierced and was sinless before he died? (hint: Yeshua) Next the matzah is broken in a cloth (Christ's burial cloth) and given to the people with wine symbolizing the blood as the atoning sacrifice. There are many other parallels too but this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Gman wrote:

DannyM wrote:

Silvertusk wrote:

Gman wrote:That's great.. And you are correct not to take on any outside practices.. We are to be Torah observant in everything we do. That is where mainline Christianity missed the mark. Again, if you went to my synagogue you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. We recite the Shema, pray toward the ark.. We are NOT liberal either.

Wrong. We do not have to observe the Torah at all in mainline Christianity - We are under the new Convenant - so we don't have to worry about all the laws and regulations of Leviticus or kosha foods - or praying towards the Ark. Christianity in its purest form is Jesus centred worship full stop.

Exactly. I was reading this thread and found all this...well...weird. I do not see what any of it has to do with Christianity in its purest form

We need to be more careful before we judge. Look what I wrote previously.

Sorry, G, didn't mean to come across judgemental, but realise I did

DannyM wrote:
Sorry, G, didn't mean to come across judgemental, but realise I did

No problem Danny... As far as I'm concerned, once someone accepts Christ they are saved. It doesn't mean that they have to become a Messianic Jew. I wouldn't say that.. For me Messianic Judaism is just another way to get closer to Christ. It's a blend of Judaism and Christianity but the focal point is Jesus (Yeshua). So we may wear the garments and practice the festivals, I believe it has more to do more with one's sanctification and not salvation. It's done out of respect.. And people can reach that anyway they want as long it aligns with Christ....

If anything the services there resemble a Catholic mass

Oy vey!!



But seriously, Gman, isn't it true that all ceremonies, and observances in Judaism, point to Christ?

RickD wrote:

If anything the services there resemble a Catholic mass

Oy vey!!



But seriously, Gman, isn't it true that all ceremonies, and observances in Judaism, point to Christ?

Yes they do.. But Jews wouldn't acknowledge that. The problem here however is taking the law or Torah and saying that one is saved or justified when then they practice Torah. Unfortunately the claim is false because NO ONE can make the claim that they follow Torah completely. That isn't true Judaism, and many religious Jews even carry that to the Oral traditions such as the Midrash making it even more complicated.

Some say that they must follow the letter of the Law of Torah to be justified forgetting that it is actually walking in SPIRIT OR FAITH OF TORAH where one is justified. And the only one who we can say walked in SPIRIT OF TORAH was Christ or Yeshua. That is a HUGE difference. No one could ever say that they are justified by the letter of the law, there are over 613 mitzvots to abide by. That is just pain silly..

What should we desire? How to walk in SPIRIT OF TORAH. That is the key here because no one could ever justify themselves by the letter of the law.

Sorry of the capitalized letters. Just trying to make a point..

Gman wrote:

Silvertusk wrote:

Wrong. We do not have to observe the Torah at all in mainline Christianity - We are under the new Convenant - so we don't have to worry about all the laws and regulations of Leviticus or kosha foods - or praying towards the Ark. Christianity in its purest form is Jesus centred worship full stop.

Silvertusk.

So you don't think Jesus was a Torah observant Jew? Also Christ did not come to destroy Torah.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

We can actually obey the entire law when we obey Christ. True or not true? While following the kosher food laws and others it has nothing to do with salvation but respect for the law. And we would probably benefit our bodies when we obey the kosher laws too. As for praying towards the ark, do you not stand and pray towards the front of the Church or do you sit and turn your head away? Again, those things are done out of respect, not that we fulfill the law when we do such things.

He fufilled the law so we are not bound by it. The law of Leviticus was given to Israel to set them apart from all the pagen nations that surrounded them. It was also stated that this is not the ideal situation but initially meeting Israel where they are and slowly improving their society. It was never meant to be permanent - Jesus changed all that. The law convicted the OT people of their sins - now we have the Holy Spirit to do that.

I have no problem with people following the Torah in their Christian beliefs - but as I stated before that is not what makes Christianity pure. Worshipping Jesus is what makes it pure. Traditions are ok to help with that - but even then there is a danger of the tradition becoming a chore and no real heart worship taking place.

Even in Acts there was a big debate about the Jewish Christians putting a yoke on the backs of Gentile Christians with all their laws and traditions - the conclusion being that they only had to abide a few of them - mainly the ones relating to sexual morality.

SIlvertusk