"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
Paul, have you ever thought of exposing the atheist's own circular logic?PaulSacramento wrote:Oh there is no way for US to convince ANY skeptic, that is God's place with His Holy Spirit.
I simply try NOT to be a "stumbling block" for any that have questions.
And for many skeptics, "circular logic" is just that ( regardless of we are or not).
Danny, that my friend, is precisely why I'm fed up with the "church scene". It's as if all of a sudden, the bible, and the cross of Christ have lost their power.DannyM wrote:Katabole,
Excellent post! I want to pick two paragraphs. First, this almost forensic offering:
I, like Dan, cannot understand the position of those who assert and believe that many of the Bible's parts are myths, mistranslations and forgeries, while at the same time they continue to quote it, write commentaries upon it and accept endorsements and dignities for preaching or lecturing about it. The Bible simply claims to be the Word of God. It does not attempt to establish its claim, or seek to prove it. It merely assumes it and asserts it. It is for us to believe it or to leave it. But, by believing it, our aim then is to seek to understand what God has thus written for our learning.
Precisely! If anyone is in any doubt, read this paragraph carefully.
What is it with this ‘post-modernism’? As far as I’m aware it says that everybody is right and nobody is wrong. Can you clear this up for me?Unfortunately, the church in our generation is drifting from these fundamental convictions and has already begun to embrace postmodern ideas uncritically. Many churches do not teach the Bible anymore and so the sheep, starve. Evangelicalism is quickly losing its footing, and the church is becoming more and more like the world. Fewer and fewer Christians are willing to stand against the trends, and the effects have been disastrous. Subjectivity, irrationality, worldliness, uncertainty, compromise, and hypocrisy have already become commonplace among churches and organizations that once constituted the evangelical mainstream.
Yet Scripture is seen to be inerrant "when the ipsissima verba of the original autographs are ascertained and interpreted in their natural and intended sense."14 Inerrancy is not attributed to copies, much less to our vernacular translations, but to "the original autographic text."15
Oh, it's because we live in an age of individualistic relativism. Tolerance in Western society presently, for example, is the supreme virtue of the public square. Tolerant people can be broad thinkers, open-minded, and charitable to every worldview—every worldview, that is, except biblical Christianity. The authoritative demands of Jesus Christ are beyond the threshold of postmodern tolerance. As a matter of fact, tolerance may soon be the only virtue secular society will embrace. Many traditional virtues (including humility, self-control, and chastity) have already fallen out of public favor and in some quarters are openly scorned or even regarded as transgressions.DannyM wrote:What is it with this ‘post-modernism’? As far as I’m aware it says that everybody is right and nobody is wrong. Can you clear this up for me?
Whenever the try to play the "evil" or "suffering" or "morals" card.DannyM wrote:Paul, have you ever thought of exposing the atheist's own circular logic?PaulSacramento wrote:Oh there is no way for US to convince ANY skeptic, that is God's place with His Holy Spirit.
I simply try NOT to be a "stumbling block" for any that have questions.
And for many skeptics, "circular logic" is just that ( regardless of we are or not).
This is why Christian post-modernists baffle me!Katabole wrote:Oh, it's because we live in an age of individualistic relativism. Tolerance in Western society presently, for example, is the supreme virtue of the public square. Tolerant people can be broad thinkers, open-minded, and charitable to every worldview—every worldview, that is, except biblical Christianity. The authoritative demands of Jesus Christ are beyond the threshold of postmodern tolerance. As a matter of fact, tolerance may soon be the only virtue secular society will embrace. Many traditional virtues (including humility, self-control, and chastity) have already fallen out of public favor and in some quarters are openly scorned or even regarded as transgressions.
I’m pretty sure political correctness was here before post-modernism. Post-modernism only exacerbated this nonsense.Instead, with the beatification of tolerance, what was once forbidden is now encouraged. What was once universally deemed immoral is now celebrated. Marital infidelity and divorce have been normalized. Profanity is commonplace. Abortion, homosexuality, and moral perversions of all kinds are championed by large advocacy groups and tacitly encouraged by the popular media. The modern notion of “tolerance” is systematically turning morality on its head. Just about the only remaining taboo is the naive and politically incorrect notion that another person’s “alternative lifestyle,” religion, or different perspective is wrong.
Yes, I’ve seen that site … ‘Irony’ is not the word…One major exception to that rule stands out starkly: it is OK to be intolerant of biblical Christianity. In fact, those who fancy themselves the leading advocates of religious tolerance today are often the most outspoken opponents of evangelical Christianity. A classic example of this is the Web site at religioustolerance.org. Page after page at that Web site lambastes Bible-based Christianity. It is one of the most bitterly anti-Christian sites on the internet.
I know. The implication in those ads was clear. Typical of the morally bankrupt Dawkins. One wonders why the misrepresentations are so blatant and numerous…The question you ask is the same question I ask. Why does authentic biblical Christianity find such ferocious opposition among today’s self-styled champions of “religious tolerance”? For example, the bus adds that read, 'There's probably no god, so stop worrying and get on with your life'. Why is it that they make synonymous belief in God and worry? Are they afraid to meet God as judge? Though these people claim not to be judgmental, they really are quick to judge. And yet they support and fight for liberal rights at any cost? Why?
Yeah, you confirmed my fears about post-modernism. Thanks, Katabole.It is because Christianity is diametrically opposed to the postmodern ideas that have made this an age of “tolerance.”
Truly, it's prophecy in motion, 2Tim 4:3.
Good.PaulSacramento wrote:Whenever the try to play the "evil" or "suffering" or "morals" card.DannyM wrote:Paul, have you ever thought of exposing the atheist's own circular logic?PaulSacramento wrote:Oh there is no way for US to convince ANY skeptic, that is God's place with His Holy Spirit.
I simply try NOT to be a "stumbling block" for any that have questions.
And for many skeptics, "circular logic" is just that ( regardless of we are or not).
I agree. It's self-defeating anyway! Makes the mind boggleRickD wrote:Danny, that my friend, is precisely why I'm fed up with the "church scene". It's as if all of a sudden, the bible, and the cross of Christ have lost their power.DannyM wrote:What is it with this ‘post-modernism’? As far as I’m aware it says that everybody is right and nobody is wrong. Can you clear this up for me?
People today, need the real Jesus. Not some sugar coated gospel.
"Sunday school theology" is a dangerous things in the hands of people like Dawkins, Harris, Dennet and others.I know. The implication in those ads was clear. Typical of the morally bankrupt Dawkins. One wonders why the misrepresentations are so blatant and numerous…
Absolutely. Doesn't it make you wonder why they so blatantly (and surely *knowingly*) distort Christianity and Christian theology?PaulSacramento wrote:"Sunday school theology" is a dangerous things in the hands of people like Dawkins, Harris, Dennet and others.I know. The implication in those ads was clear. Typical of the morally bankrupt Dawkins. One wonders why the misrepresentations are so blatant and numerous…
They learn just enough to find the stuff they don't like and to confirm ( to themselves) the truth that they have always known:
Religion is evil and causes hate and intolerance, it drives people to kill, makes good people bad and the bible is a prime example as it shows that God is a genocidal egomaniacal maniac
Well, part of me HOPES it is just ignorance.DannyM wrote:Absolutely. Doesn't it make you wonder why they so blatantly (and surely *knowingly*) distort Christianity and Christian theology?PaulSacramento wrote:"Sunday school theology" is a dangerous things in the hands of people like Dawkins, Harris, Dennet and others.I know. The implication in those ads was clear. Typical of the morally bankrupt Dawkins. One wonders why the misrepresentations are so blatant and numerous…
They learn just enough to find the stuff they don't like and to confirm ( to themselves) the truth that they have always known:
Religion is evil and causes hate and intolerance, it drives people to kill, makes good people bad and the bible is a prime example as it shows that God is a genocidal egomaniacal maniac
The sequence: God's rationality (is the rational foundation for) --> human faith (which is the rational foundation for) --> human reasoning.When arguing for an ultimate criterion; one must use criterion compatible with that conclusion. Vlach notes this as well, “Assuming the truth of Christianity is not a vicious circular argument. As Frame puts it, ‘the rational basis for faith is God’s own rationality. The sequence is: God’s rationality → human faith → human reasoning. The arrows may be read ‘is the rational basis for’ (Frame in Cowan, 210). Thus, the sequence is linear, not circular.”
Oh dear...PaulSacramento wrote:Well, part of me HOPES it is just ignorance.DannyM wrote:Absolutely. Doesn't it make you wonder why they so blatantly (and surely *knowingly*) distort Christianity and Christian theology?
The other part fears that it is something far more disturbing than that.
An example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6twSN8ZS_VA
Indeed.DannyM wrote:Oh dear...PaulSacramento wrote:Well, part of me HOPES it is just ignorance.DannyM wrote:Absolutely. Doesn't it make you wonder why they so blatantly (and surely *knowingly*) distort Christianity and Christian theology?
The other part fears that it is something far more disturbing than that.
An example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6twSN8ZS_VA
Rick, I didn't see this the thread moved so fast!RickD wrote:Danny and Paul,
I know both you know this, so I'm not speaking directly to you. The only way we can reach unbelievers is through prayer. God has to be the one to open them up to His message. That is the only way they can begin to understand anything of God. That is the only way any of us came to understand anything from God. That's the difference between making arguments through the guiding of the Holy Spirit, and making arguments through our own power. The power of the flesh.