Evidence for God from Science

[quote=jlay]Why is that any better than unreasonable and chaotic thinking?[/quote]
because, when it comes to how i try to make sense of things making sense first often works better.

[quote=jlay]Your answer smuggles in objective value.[/quote]
i remember saying or implying that this is my opinion.

[quote=jlay] You are presupposing that reasonable is good.[/quote]
To avoid a hypothetical situation that would say other wise i would say, no reasonable is not always good. We need the heart to balance it out a little.

[quote=jlay]This presupposes that humanity has inherent value and that being doomed is bad,[/quote]
so what? god sees no value in us? And he doesn't think being doom is bad? Because if he does i disagree

URGH quote to tedious for me now >.<

"with no way to jusitfy that position."
Because it is an opinion?

"Afterall, if people are just molecules in motion, then so what?"
I didn't think anyone would use that shallow argument here!
SO what? they have feelings, i have feelings.
God is just an immaterial ghost in the sky, so what?(can work both way dude).
We aren't suddenly any more or less valuable if god exists.
Some people would dislike it because now they are just a possession, some would like it because something that loves them has something special in mind.

"Think about the question. Are your issues with the scripture simply intellectual? There are three basic objections. Intellectual, emotional, and volitional. "
wiggy wha? iam not sure what you mean.

"There are many things in nautre we simply can NOT understand."
i'll give you that one. It is true.

"ust because I can't meet personally with the President, or see him physically, doesn't mean that the Press Secretary can not."
but we know the president exists.
We know people can speak and communicate, so if someone has someone else speak for them that won't be hard to believe.

"if Christianity were true, would you become one?"
I said yes didn't i?

"Can you trust your reason and logic?"
i don't know, it just depends on how well i present myself, how things make sense to you, and how honest you are to yourself(not trying to imply you believe dishonestly to yourself).

sailornaruto39 wrote:

Afterall, if people are just molecules in motion, then so what?

I didn't think anyone would use that shallow argument here!

Why not? If we are the product of purely natural causes (can nature produce nature?) then this is what we are. Apart from being emotional, what rational argument do you have against this?

sailornaruto39 wrote:SO what? they have feelings, i have feelings.

So what?

sailornaruto39 wrote:We aren't suddenly any more or less valuable if god exists.

Of course we are. If we are here for a purpose, then we are quite obviously of infinite more value than if we weren’t.

sailornaruto39 wrote:Some people would dislike it because now they are just a possession, some would like it because something that loves them has something special in mind.

What? Please explain the “possession” bit.

because, when it comes to how i try to make sense of things making sense first often works better.

Again, you are smuggling in objective morality. Better? Compared to. Otherwise, your better could be my worse. Preference. Who is right?

so what? god sees no value in us? And he doesn't think being doom is bad? Because if he does i disagree

We are talking about your worldview here. I didn't say that is what I believe. I am simply following your worldview to its logical conclusions. I have just, objective reasons for valuing human life in my worldview. There is value in human life because God created and values human life. John 3:16

Just hit the quote button, and type your text in between.

We aren't suddenly any more or less valuable if god exists.

Well, if that is how you feel, then there really isn't any point in going further. we might as well get pizza. If all worldviews add no value to human life, then human life has no value. I'm no better off if I reject God, believe in God, or if there is no God. It is all futile. Life is just an illusion. So, why exactly are you here?

SO what? they have feelings, i have feelings.

Shallow? Based on what? I am simply projecting the realities of a godless worldview. So, on what grounds do feelings matter? Subjective. You said earlier, "my personal preference." Why is your personal preference better than someone who thinks that feelings are weakness and need to be conquered? Such as some Buddhist. You are assuming that feelings have value, yet I've not seen you account for this outside of "my personal preference." That's fine if you want to hold that position. I just don't think you will like where that position forces you to go.

Some people would dislike it because now they are just a possession, some would like it because something that loves them has something special in mind.

I possess tremendous love for my daughter. As my child she belongs to me. I value that possession. Are you saying she should see herself as 'just a possesion,' and that she shouldn't value my love anymore than say being an orphan?

Anytime we use terms like better, it presumes an objective standard. For example, if I say vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate, you know that it isn’t actually better. It’s my preference. Even if 100 out of 100 people prefer vanilla, it is still subjective. It isn’t right or wrong to like vanilla ice cream. If objectivity were determined by preference, then it would actually become wrong to prefer vanilla, if the majority preferred chocolate. Silly isn’t it. So, preference doesn’t determine right or wrong, personally or collectively. Logical?

So, if preference is the standard, let’s see where it leads. Hitler preferred killing Jews. He likes killing Jews, I don’t. Vanilla/chocolate. It wouldn’t be objectively wrong. One might say, ‘but harming people is wrong.’ That presumes human life has objective value. In this case, killing Jews, enslaving blacks, rape, child abuse aren’t really wrong. They just aren’t preferred. If Hitler had won, and convinced the rest of the world with his propaganda, then killing Jews would be the morally right thing to do. (Sounds insane doesn’t it.) It is.

Saying life doesn’t have more value if God exist is like saying the earth wouldn’t have more light if the sun didn’t exists. It’s preposterous. Or saying that mount Rushmore doesn’t have any more meaning for American history, than any arbitrary rock formation.

So, where I suspected you were coming from, has pretty well been confirmed by your replies. And so it would seem that you have no way to account for meaning regarding ANYTHING in life. Saying life has meaning because you say so, is uhhh, well…..shallow. And, yet you want us to provide you meaning for the tree of life. That sir is impossible. You demand reasonable answers, yet you can’t even begin to account for the existence of logic in the first place. It would be like trying to describe the color blue to a blind person. You first need to put your current worldview to the same scrutiny you attempt to put the bible under. Then you can get those answers.

@ danny:
"Why not? If we are the product of purely natural causes (can nature produce nature?) then this is what we are. Apart from being emotional, what rational argument do you have against this?"
*rolles eyes*

Like i said, humans should reason with emotions and logic.But to answer your question none,but that is like asking me to prove to plus 2 with out taking 2 things and showing you. Why should we listen to god? Just because he can hurt you?

"Of course we are. If we are here for a purpose, then we are quite obviously of infinite more value than if we weren’t. "
like i said,that is subjective,alot of people would prefer to not be a product of the god of the bibile, with him and his track record.Some people see this life as the only one,which is why you should make the best of it they say.

"What? Please explain the “possession” bit."
do we not have to devote our life to him? Does he not use use in certain ways?
Do we not belong to him?

@jlay:
"you are smuggling in objective morality. Better? Compared to. Otherwise, your better could be my worse. Preference. Who is right? "
No iam not, iam telling you this is only my opnion. As compared to, the current system, you know the one with people dying for reasons outside of their control
Who is right? I don't know.

Just hit the quote button, and type your text in between

ok that helped

Life is just an illusion. So, why exactly are you here?

As far as we can see no it isn't. It may be but since we have senses that help us recognize the world it seems pretty real.

Shallow? Based on what? I am simply projecting the realities of a godless worldview.

sorry not shallow, i meant CLOSED MINDED!!!
People see value in a godless world because they feel "hey we are all alone and if you are happy i can be happy so let's try to get along"
They find strength in their independence.
If you feel you have more value with your life with god, good for you. You belong to a cause now,but so do non believers,just not on a spiritual level.

"Why is your personal preference better than someone who thinks that feelings are weakness and need to be conquered?"
nothing really,but it has just come to it were people usually turn out to where they respect others(mostly) and don't turn into the world you are implying.

"I just don't think you will like where that position forces you to go."
that would be?

" As my child she belongs to me. I value that possession."
ok i'll give you that one. But i cleared up what i meant better above

If you want my worldview then here it is because things are getting scattered XD
I believe in god, not of any particular religion though. I think he/she/it/they (but i go with he because i use to be christian) are kind just not omnipotent. Which would make much more sense for why the world is the way it is instead of going through the logical gymnastics of thinking the imperfect world world is created by an perfect god.

Morals are subjective, value is subjective. ok
Logic is contextually subjective and objective and needs alot of consideration to be done. Which means it depends on the situation and goal.

FYI please don't try to take the way i use words are trying to look smart,i just like typing this way.

that would be?

I added to my previous post, so please review.

People see value in a godless world because they feel "hey we are all alone and if you are happy i can be happy so let's try to get along"

Seeing value? Feeling value. It hasn't nothing to do with 'feeling.' Life either has inherent value, or doesn't. Otherwise, the 'feeling' is just an illusion. The result of molecules in motion. It's no more significant than an elephant fart.

nothing really,but it has just come to it were people usually turn out to where they respect others(mostly) and don't turn into the world you are implying.

You need to take a closer look at the atrocities in the world today. You are gravely mislead.

Anytime we use terms like better, it presumes an objective standard.

not objectively, relative to context with a touch of subjection.

preference doesn’t determine right or wrong, personally or collectively.

yes it does. Not in an objective sense, but it is not like people are going to say silly things like that are wrong.
Murder is wrong because
-We have the goals to want to extend the life of others(with exceptions)
-We want to advance society
-We understand and pretty much all share the experience of undesired pain.

It is all for the sake of stabilizing.

What is making valillia ice cream wrong going to accomplish? Nothing, or at least from this world view, there might be some different world it that is so. It is not like god makes it any more objective, it would all be relative to what HE says is wrong or right. Morals are much more complex than you try to make them out. Just as how humans have developed a system of logic and reason they have with morals too. Just saying something is right or wrong won't make it so, pratcial consequences and benefits are to be considered.

Saying life doesn’t have more value if God exist is like saying the earth wouldn’t have more light if the sun didn’t exists.

i think you messed up on that somewhere, you sure that is what you are trying to say?
Because if the sun didn't exist the earth would have more light.

"Saying life has meaning because you say so, is uhhh, well…..shallow."
herp derp is it not the same if god says so? And even if he says so why should i care? He says murder is wrong, i kill someone and iam like "well that was moral"
Why should i care if iam in a valley of shadows or lake of fire?
Your questions aren't making a point. Like i said, god is just doing what people are already doing for themselves, deciding morals based on words.

" Life either has inherent value, or doesn't. Otherwise, the 'feeling' is just an illusion."

feelings don't exist in the same way rocks do, emotions and feelings exist as a phenomena.

I don't even know how you got me talking about this. what does this have to do with the tree?
I didn't think anyone would be brazen. You scrutinize another person by questioning the fabric of reality and try to imply the godless should feel that not likeing ice cream and killing people are even near the same.

Iam going to say this one last time(but with some more stuff) MORALS A CONTEXTUAL RELEVANT SUBJECTIVE/OBJECTIVE WAYS THAT ARE DEPENDS ON A SOCIETY AND THERE GOALS AFTER CONSIDERING BENEFITS AND GOALS!!!

If in your ice cream world they valilia ice cream cause anyone looking at another eating it to explode, and they value most life then valinia ice cream would be bad since it has bad consequences.

What do you think morals are for?

If God's the source of morality, then his commandments are part of his nature. And as per Christianity, we are made in the image of God. Thus God's morality is our morality and the -only- possible objective standard.

It is not so trivial as "God says so", it is God declaring those despicable acts a person already knows in their heart.

Echoside wrote:If God's the source of morality, then his commandments are part of his nature. And as per Christianity, we are made in the image of God. Thus God's morality is our morality and the -only- possible objective standard.

It is not so trivial as "God says so", it is God declaring those despicable acts a person already knows in their heart.

"If God's the source of morality, then his commandments are part of his nature."
and?

"we are made in the image of God"

obviously to an extent.That doesn't make it any more objective.

"acts a person already knows in their heart"
A built in morality meter? Where is the free choice in that?
tell that to a sociopath, or an un-remorseful serial killer.

Stop telling others what they "KNOW".

sailornaruto39 wrote: obviously to an extent.That doesn't make it any more objective.

I'd call it objective if it's the one and only standard that can logically exist.

sailornaruto39 wrote:
A built in morality meter? Where is the free choice in that?
tell that to a sociopath, or an un-remorseful serial killer.

Tell them what? They did what they know is wrong and must now face the consequences?

Do you fault the laws of logic for being "built in" as well? Free choice is limited one way or another, do you also complain of your lack of ability to fly?

sailornaruto39 wrote:Stop telling others what they "KNOW".

Not me, it's Christianity that makes this claim. I'm simply advising you of the fact that it's not some huge inconsistency.

I'd call it objective if it's the one and only standard that can logically exist.

Well... it isn't. It is subjective to what he wants. It maybe objective that he thinks/feels murder is wrong. But it is a matter of value. And non mathematical value you all based on preference, the next thing you know, he might suddenly feel that stonings are ok again. Or have them be ok to begin with.

"Tell them what? They did what they know is wrong and must now face the consequences? "
Do you not know what a sociopath is? Or what it means to have no remorse? Even if they "know" it is wrong it is only from the culture they were raised in.

"Do you fault the laws of logic for being "built in" as well? Free choice is limited one way or another, do you also complain of your lack of ability to fly?"
Logic is not something you would put fault in the same you would a conscious entity or being. It is merely a cause effect thing. And to be honest i actually do. Sometimes i wish i could fly,sometimes i wouldn't get fat from eating sugar. But oh well dems da breaks, nothing i can do about it.

Do you not know what a sociopath is? Or what it means to have no remorse? Even if they "know" it is wrong it is only from the culture they were raised in.

My best friend is a diagnosed sociopath, he feels no empathy for other people yet he is a Christain. He does struggle sometimes and does the best he can, but through the love of Christ he has overcome. I have a friend on my basketball team who has schizopherenia, when his whole life was turned upside down he found comfort in God as he was the only thing that didnt change and he gave him the power to overcome and gain control of his disease.

I disagree with your statement implying that because of a disorder/disease that they do not have a choice over their actions as i have seen it first hand.

sailornaruto39 wrote: Well... it isn't. It is subjective to what he wants. It maybe objective that he thinks/feels murder is wrong. But it is a matter of value. And non mathematical value you all based on preference, the next thing you know, he might suddenly feel that stonings are ok again. Or have them be ok to begin with.

It's not as much what God wants, as what IS. They of course coincide with one another, but it's not some arbitrary decision thrown out, it's part of the nature of being and existence imparted to us.

sailornaruto39 wrote:Do you not know what a sociopath is? Or what it means to have no remorse? Even if they "know" it is wrong it is only from the culture they were raised in.

If you would like to discuss God and the things you find illogical with him, you cannot at the same time push a subjective agenda and argue it's their cultures' fault after presupposing God's rules. Either they know it is wrong or they do not.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Do you not know what a sociopath is? Or what it means to have no remorse? Even if they "know" it is wrong it is only from the culture they were raised in.

My best friend is a diagnosed sociopath, he feels no empathy for other people yet he is a Christain. He does struggle sometimes and does the best he can, but through the love of Christ he has overcome. I have a friend on my basketball team who has schizopherenia, when his whole life was turned upside down he found comfort in God as he was the only thing that didnt change and he gave him the power to overcome and gain control of his disease.

I disagree with your statement implying that because of a disorder/disease that they do not have a choice over their actions as i have seen it first hand.

Well congrats to those 2, and i mean it. They have alot of mental strength, with or with out god. And that is the good thing about religion, it can give people a reason to fight more.

Sorry i guess i misused the example.

It's not as much what God wants, as what IS. They of course coincide with one another, but it's not some arbitrary decision thrown out, it's part of the nature of being and existence imparted to us.

so we are pre designed to know right from wrong? Wrong. The fact remains that many people have different opinions of moral behavior. And god is? is what? Morality?

@Echo: ok thinking it over i have contradicted myself, i have been saying gods morality is subjective to him and told him how to do his own opinion.
LOl sorry about that.
If god honestly values this free will stuff, bonds from suffering... fine, got me there(got myself XD). That still doesn't explain the tree, i think rick told me without the tree the world would be like heaven. I thought to myself that if he wants the best that would be fine,but no he wants all this bonds through suffering mess.

I then pondered "why not just make humans the way they are now? All prone to sin and that good stuff" But then i guess that would mean he directly made us so prone to sin. So the way i see it now is that the tree was just a way to make it look like Adams fault while setting the whole plan in motion.

Because really now. He put that dangerous tree (as to why it is bad in the first place is still beyond me) to give him the choice to disobey? Who does that XD.
If we are going to anthropomorphize our relation to him with that of a parent, shouldn't we think what a parent would do first?

I then pondered "why not just make humans the way they are now? All prone to sin and that good stuff" But then i guess that would mean he directly made us so prone to sin. So the way i see it now is that the tree was just a way to make it look like Adams fault while setting the whole plan in motion.

I was under the impression that the tree was symbolic, we chose to reject God on the basis that we knew better than him and that we didnt need God for our survival ( we thought we could be like God ).
God knew even before we were created that we would ultimately fall into sin and had already paved the way for our salvation through Christ, as a creature with free will that is freely able to reciprocate Gods love we made our choice to reject Gods love and the tree is symbolic of that rejection( IMO ). As a loving Father he knew we would make mistakes but like all Fathers he needed to let his child make the mistake so that they may learn. As a father myself of two boys i have to tell them not to do things like not to play with matches but ultimately it is their choice if they want to listen to me or not and if they do not they will have to suffer the consequences of their actions.

I have one question for you, if you wanted to create a being that could love you how would you go about that process and remember real love is when it is a choice.

Daniel

i think rick told me without the tree the world would be like heaven.

I never said that.

I said thisin regards to the tree:

When I talk about "free will", I mean freedom to choose between right and wrong. Not absolute freedom to do even impossible things. God gave a command not to eat of a certain tree. The freewill comes in when Adam and Eve decided to go against God, because they thought they knew better than God.