Free will and Omniscience

[neo-x]

y RickD on Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:22 pm

For example, someone threatens me at gunpoint

1. God knows what will I do in any circumstance.
2. In my head at the same time, I am thinking about yanking the gun from him and then shoot him.
3. I can't decide whether I should go for it or not.
4. Now God knows, what will happen, if I yank the gun or stay as it is and get shot.
5. If I yank the gun and then move on to shoot him, God already knew that.
6. Now where is my choice? what if I just yank the gun and move away? did God also knew that.
7. If so, then God didn't know what I would do exactly, he only knows I could do it either way:

A. I could yank the gun and shoot him
B. I could yank the gun and walk away.

Neo, I believe you're thinking way too much into this. You're making it way more complicated than it has to be.
In a given circumstance, where I have two choices and only one I can carry out, for God to know that particular one, he must know what I will finally choose, God can't know both at the same time to be true, because in my free will, I am the one who finally decides which one is true, and God's knowledge has to be compatible to that. You see, God may know how many choices I have, but that is not enough, he has to know what particular choice would I carry out. This becomes incompatible with "God knows what choice I will make in any circumstance." This bring us back to my original point, if he knew already the final action, it was not mere guess, it has to be true or God's knowledge is not accurate, mere probabilities.

Thinking way to much into this. It's much simpler than that.
As I said above, for a future event to be true, it has to be true at all times in God's knowledge.

There is no "all times" in God's knowledge. God is outside of time. So, that logic is flawed from the outset.
And since it is in God's knowledge before I am even born, then it is not me who decided that particular matter and hence I have no say in it. If God knows, I will shoot the guy, then he knows it from immaterial time, outside of it. And since he knows it already, it has to be true, or else he wouldn't know it. It must happen, that is why he knows it will happen. He is not guessing. And if he knows I will do a certain action in a given event then, I really have no choice. I will always get to choose what God had known I will chose.

Thinking way too much into it.
Did God know always that Charles Manson would do what he did or Ted Bundy would be a serial killer. This is a loaded statement and one which any atheist would be too happy to take and smash around. Because down this road, God becomes the source of evil as well.

Again, just because someone knows something will happen, doesn't mean He made it happen.
OR if God already knew that Lucifer would sin, then Lucifer will sin, no matter what happens.

There is no " no matter what happens". Lucifer did rebel against God.
The only reason God knew before hand that Lucifer would sin, is because he will sin.

The reason why God knew beforehand, is because God is omniscient.
But by your perspective another side problem arises, If God already knew my action, then I cannot change them, since it will be in conflict with God's knowledge and therefore that cannot happen.

You could change your actions. But, God would also know you would do that. No conflict there.
This way I can say, "hey, what wrong did I do, I just did as it was in your thoughts and since your thoughts would be true always, I can't change what you thought before hand" so I am not the culprit here. I had no will of mine this way. Okay, so is God the culprit? certainly not, he knew what I will do, but he didn't make that choice for me, he can not, it conflicts with his nature and his free will gift to us.

Thinking way too much into it.
My question is, then who made that choice before I was even born? I will let you guys decide how to answer this.

Nobody made your choices before you were born, because you weren't born, yet. Again, just because God knows your whole life, that doesn't mean He makes you do anything.
WHAT HE KNOWS BEFORE HAND HAS TO BE TRUE AT ALL TIMES.

I refuted this above, near the beginning of this post. So, now that the statement you made, for the basis of your argument is flawed, can't you see your argument is flawed?
As I said above, for a future event to be true, it has to be true at all times in God's knowledge.

There is no "all times" in God's knowledge. God is outside of time. So, that logic is flawed from the outset.

I am sorry bro, no offense, but I don't buy it. "I believe you're thinking way too much into this. You're making it way more complicated than it has to be." won't cut it bro. You have to show me how it is wrong. By simply asserting something does not prove it. I believe I have presented my pov, quite detailed with examples. And I fail to see how God's foreknowledge will not affect us, it would.

I think you missed my point here

Again, just because someone knows something will happen, doesn't mean He made it happen.

we are not not talking about "someone" Rick, the very fact that we are talking about God, makes all the difference here.

OR if God already knew that Lucifer would sin, then Lucifer will sin, no matter what happens.

There is no " no matter what happens". Lucifer did rebel against God.

Yes but you are skipping over your own theory here, God always knew he would sin, and if so, then evil existed before lucifer was ever present. I am baffled, rick how you chose to just overlook this part and answer it with a simple "you are thinking too much into it."

I mean as far as I can see, you are over simplifying it drastically, but it still doesn't make sense Rick. The flaws that I pointed out, remain to be addressed.

You could change your actions. But, God would also know you would do that. No conflict there.

No, Rick, it creates a problem when put to practice, like I showed you.

There is no "all times" in God's knowledge. God is outside of time. So, that logic is flawed from the outset.

Yes, but we are in time and so, that transition do affect us. Put it simply, if that conveys the sense, at all times, means at all times, in infinity, out of time as well as in human time, Rick, it would have to be true in all dimensions.

I'm afraid more reasoning may be needed on your part, this is simply a refusal to agree, Rick, not conclusive reasoning.

Nobody made your choices before you were born, because you weren't born, yet. Again, just because God knows your whole life, that doesn't mean He makes you do anything.

Please explain the mechanism, and please elaborate how it couldn't ever affect us. May be that will clear somethings. And by the way, I think you missed the part where I said, God doesn't make you do things. I agree with you on this. It was however your point of view which begs the question here and that I pointed out.

so is God the culprit? certainly not, he knew what I will do, but he didn't make that choice for me, he can not, it conflicts with his nature and his free will gift to us. My question is, then who made that choice before I was even born? I will let you guys decide how to answer this.

------

@Jilay, thanx for that link by Jac, I went and read the whole 10 pages. I think his grip on such topics is great and I liked a lot of the way he debated some of the things. It would have been a pleasure to have him with us.

However, the post that you made reference to, actually kind of supports my point, as in, my original statement was a take on Rick's pov, not my own.

[jlay]

Either our sin has to be an honest accident and hopefully we recognized it OR the sin happened in our mind OR the sin happened in our mind and we acted it out.

Why don't we all try focusing on this?

Could you clarify what you are asking here?

[RickD]

I am sorry bro, no offense, but I don't buy it. "I believe you're thinking way too much into this. You're making it way more complicated than it has to be." won't cut it bro. You have to show me how it is wrong. By simply asserting something does not prove it. I believe I have presented my pov, quite detailed with examples. And I fail to see how God's foreknowledge will not affect us, it would.

I've said why I believe what I believe about this subject, already. IMO, it doesn't really mean all that much to me one way or the other what you believe about this. It's a non-essential belief, that, is even less essential than other non-essentials. I'm at peace with what I believe with this, and it's fine with me if you are at peace with your belief, as well. So, as we're going around in circles, I'll bow out, and let you guys continue if you want.

[narnia4]

Let me see if I can sum up Neo-x's argument correctly.

You're saying that God knowing the decision we're going to make would mean that he designed us to make that decision? Therefore he purposefully avoids looking into the future except in those circumstances when it accomplishes some of his "big plans", like prophecy or related to Christ coming?

Or in an example of my own- a programmer gives an AI a choice of three paths that they could follow. If the AI chose randomly, the programmer wouldn't know which of the three paths the AI would choose. But if the programmer DID know what path the AI was going to choose, then that would mean that the programmer designed the AI so that it would choose THAT path and the other two paths were never really a choice. Is that the basic gist of what you're saying?

[kmr]

Personally I believe that we are over thinking this.

If God knows what will happen -- either by presence in all time or by knowledge of all time -- that doesn't mean that we don't have free will. He created us in the beginning in the way that He thought was either best or most fair, and the way he created us had nothing to do with the choices we make. Even if He knew what we would do, our actions were not the blueprint on which He designed us, therefore we have freewill regardless. He didn't design our actions, He designed us, maybe with no regard as to what our actions would be. Even if he "knew" what we would do, it isn't a lack of freewill because he didn't design our actions for us when he made us. Does that make sense? He didn't design our actions, he designed us based off of some other blueprint.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Personally I believe that we are over thinking this.

If God knows what will happen -- either by presence in all time or by knowledge of all time -- that doesn't mean that we don't have free will. He created us in the beginning in the way that He thought was either best or most fair, and the way he created us had nothing to do with the choices we make. Even if He knew what we would do, our actions were not the blueprint on which He designed us, therefore we have freewill regardless. He didn't design our actions, He designed us, maybe with no regard as to what our actions would be. Even if he "knew" what we would do, it isn't a lack of freewill because he didn't design our actions for us when he made us. Does that make sense? He didn't design our actions, he designed us based off of some other blueprint.

computes with my logic

[neo-x]

RickD on Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:57 am

I am sorry bro, no offense, but I don't buy it. "I believe you're thinking way too much into this. You're making it way more complicated than it has to be." won't cut it bro. You have to show me how it is wrong. By simply asserting something does not prove it. I believe I have presented my pov, quite detailed with examples. And I fail to see how God's foreknowledge will not affect us, it would.


I've said why I believe what I believe about this subject, already. IMO, it doesn't really mean all that much to me one way or the other what you believe about this. It's a non-essential belief, that, is even less essential than other non-essentials. I'm at peace with what I believe with this, and it's fine with me if you are at peace with your belief, as well. So, as we're going around in circles, I'll bow out, and let you guys continue if you want.

I understand Rick, no problems. peace brother.

I apologize if you thought I was unnecessarily dragging the subject to make it complicated for you, that was not my intention. Teaching the Bible for years has kind of made my habit of studying like this, cuz you never know when some smart headed student might ask you about it.

[neo-x]

narnia4 » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:26 am

Let me see if I can sum up Neo-x's argument correctly.

You're saying that God knowing the decision we're going to make would mean that he designed us to make that decision? Therefore he purposefully avoids looking into the future except in those circumstances when it accomplishes some of his "big plans", like prophecy or related to Christ coming?

Or in an example of my own- a programmer gives an AI a choice of three paths that they could follow. If the AI chose randomly, the programmer wouldn't know which of the three paths the AI would choose. But if the programmer DID know what path the AI was going to choose, then that would mean that the programmer designed the AI so that it would choose THAT path and the other two paths were never really a choice. Is that the basic gist of what you're saying?

Essentially yes. The AI and the programmer example works fine, except that in the case of God knowing the future - would make it true (even if its not going to happen that way). So that is why God does not see in the future except in prophecies, because if he knew what I will do, then OF COURSE and OBVIOUSLY it MEANS, I would do that. I can't question God's foreknowledge, now can I?

And as you pointed out, in the case of programmer knowing which path the AI will choose, essentially means that the other two paths were not really a choice. In the scenario of God and man, it makes choice, an illusion.

And I don't think this is pretty hard to understand. It is an obvious problem. I can understand, if like Rick, someone might not think it essential, or might not want to engage in working this out, this is of course a choice and I respect that. But saying this is overly complicated is just sliding by the issue, in my opinion. I believe I have given ample food for thought. What if an atheist genuinely asked this question, would you guys really turn and tell him, we think it doesn't matter and its "too complicated" so we don't want to discuss it. (no disrespect to anyone, but it can happen)

It may not be essential to salvation but it is to apologetics.

Anyway, here is another take on this,

Gen 22 says, God told Abraham to offer Isaac; why did he do that?

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

Look at verse 12 and please see my point, according to those who think God knows our choice before hand - God already knew that Abraham would not hesitate in offering Isaac, since God is omniscient, right?

But when I see verse 12's second part, it makes me think that God did not see beyond Abraham's choice until Abraham actually did it or else this whole things become just a formality.

Again, let us look into another example.

when God asked Solomon to ask whatever he wanted, did God already knew that Solomon would choose wisdom, because if so, then it doesn't matter how many choices Solomon had, he would of course choose wisdom, because that is what God knew, even before the start of the universe.

Narnia, one more thing I would like to point out here, I am not saying that God designed us to make those decisions (but one can say this about those who think God always knew what we would do), neither is this my objection. My objection is, by God's foreknowledge, by his knowing the future - would make the future true, regardless of any choices, present. They would be over-ruled.

Put it this way, if you had the ability to see in the future with pin point accuracy, that your knowledge was absolutely conclusive and concrete, what you see in the future can NEVER BE FALSE, and so on your son's birthday, you are thinking of either buying him candies, a toy car and a scrabble game board. You have the ability to know what your son will like the most, by just looking into the future.

Now if you saw the future with absolute clarity and knew that the toy car is the one that matters to your son, and the rest of the two gifts will be a no-brainer to him. Wouldn't it mean that since he is going to choose the toy car - even if you present him with the other two toys, they will never be selected. And now one may say that your foreknowledge has no affect on his decision, he has free will, he may change his mind at the last moment (as they are saying about God, that his foreknowledge does not affect our decision). But here is my point, we started with the premise that your ability to see in the future is unquestioned, what you see happening in the future, will happen, because your ability supersedes any cause and effect, you know the ultimate outcome, you knew it before your son was even born, what you know is TRUE. In that sense just by knowing the future you sealed it to be, and even you can't help it because what you saw, will happen.

(don't mind the caps, it's just for emphasis)
YOU SEE THE POINT, YOUR SON HAS FREE WILL, BUT THE MOMENT YOU SAW THE FUTURE, YOU SEALED THE CHOICE HE WAS FREELY GOING TO MAKE, BECAUSE WHAT YOU SAW, CANNOT ALTER. AND SINCE YOU KNEW THE FUTURE BEFORE TIME BEGIN, THE CHOICE YOU SAW HE WOULD MAKE, WOULD BE THE CHOICE HE WILL MAKE, BECAUSE YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF FUTURE CANNOT BE FALSE AT THE SAME TIME. THIS ELIMINATES THE CHANCES OF CHANGING THE FUTURE, ONCE YOU SEE IT HAPPEN.


The only way to to go would be to not look into the future, give your son with all three and let him decide. By not looking into the future, no future event will become actually true, and your son would have the option to make his mind.

Hope this makes sense to you.

[B. W.]

B.W. I love your thinking, man. Its engaging.

The problem with Free will and Omniscience is that there isn't any. Only human beings make a problem out of it due to black and white thinking.

Heres the problem I think with what you just said. You're saying that Free will and Omniscience is an illusion AND that we were not made in the image of God. God made us in his image and likeness. This includes THINKING and having a mind of our own just like him. We can think, see the world and see the greatness of God, but yet what we experience in terms that I decide to go here or go there. Eat this or eat that. If it is indeed an illusion then you can calling God a deceiver within his creation. I disagree with your assertion that human beings are black and white thinkers.

The mind is amazingly simple yet powerful. We have one LIKE our creator. The mind is simpler then the universe. The difference between us and our creator is that he is THE supreme being. He CREATED time and space. We can understand it, we just can't do what he does.

Actually my bad – I forgot to type the word problem and it should have read this way: The problem with Free will and Omniscience is that there isn't any problem Does make a difference

...People make this non-essential doctrine far to complex was my next point. It does not need to be and is actually very simple. Praise God, His silence was not golden for if it was, we would all be in a world of hurt!

If God never called out to Adam and Eve after the fall, abandon them, could human beings save themselves?

Of course not.

That is what the bible confirms.

If the Word, John 1:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 14c, did not come, could human beings choose salvation?

Of course not BUT could God exercise his omnipotence to provide salvation?

He did, by the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world so he knew in advance and provided His best living way to provide salvation perfectly just to morally reasoning beings…proving that God is true to his own nature and character. Ponder it more…

Does the calling forth that symbolic means of salvation “Where are you” belong to God alone or man who hides?

He called them because God recognized that they were separated. God didn't need to ask. He felt it!

What options were presented to Adam and Eve? A decision between two options is a choice, isn’t it? In Adam and Eve’s case, they realized they could not hide and stood up to face the music and what did God do? Banished them away and provided a temporary clothing to clothe their shame in what they did. The new sin nature was in them and their progeny would grow as they, so a fuller and better covering and cleansing would have to wait a while longer. All this God foresaw and knew in advance had a plan.

What does this call create?

Nothing. Separation happened. He was communicating it. They knew what they just did, but didn't know much more then that. God certainly needed to explain what happened. He loved them.

Realize that God gave them the ability to decide- choose naming animals and exercise of dominion, etc and etc… Yet to deny a morally reasoning being to even disobey God’s command would be unjust and unloving. Living according one’s perfect just standards and perfect ways means God will be so toward those he fashioned as a morally reasoning being. Next and then, Living accordingly to one’s own omnipotence – what has God to fear in doing so? Rebellion and sin would be dealt with by God… in due time...

Who Created it?

The initiative of calling to all people is God’s own. By it choice is created within human beings.

Nothing was created in this instance. God needed to exercise his omnipotence out of love for his creation.

Love demonstrates being just to all…. And God created choices to Adam and Eve – naming animals, exercising dominion, raising offspring, tending and keep the garden. He place a tree of knowledge in the Garden and told Adam not to eat of this tree. Again a choice. God creates choices and from these – he draws people to himself…

Does God foreknow the results that his own call will have? Yes, but he still calls nevertheless to all for if he did not, then, how could God truly be absolutely just in all His ways?

This one flew over my head. God is Just because he loves us and wants us to be with him again. This would require that he exercise his omnipotence.

He did so with Christ and exposed what the evil one (serpent) is all about… Think about this more in light of the short answers I provided and mull over these a few days and pray that the Lord enlighten you on this.

Deut 32:3, 4 , "For I proclaim the name of the LORD: Ascribe greatness to our God. 4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He." NKJV

God foreknows the final result of that His call will have on all people. Now known that a person who rejects God’s word, can be fashioned a Pharaoh for whatever sovereign purposes God desires, or since known to accept, fashioned into a Jeremiah or better yet, back into the image of Christ like character.

Since God creates a choice by His Word to reject or accept Him does not mean that He is a slave to free will, rather, the Lord necessarily has to violate our free will by imposing certain kind of choice called out to all by His Word, and in this, is how he test those whom he created as morally reasoning beings. In so doing, the Lord justly discovers who will one love, obey, serve… Think about it…

[kmr]

When the witches told Macbeth he would be king, did that make him any less responsible for murdering King Duncan? They knew what his choices would be, but he was still the one who had to make them.

[neo-x]

When the witches told Macbeth he would be king, did that make him any less responsible for murdering King Duncan? They knew what his choices would be, but he was still the one who had to make them.

I am afraid this is quite a bit different scenario, because the future, witches saw, could be changed, they are not God. But my question is, what God knows will happen, can that be changed?

[DannyM]

Look at verse 12 and please see my point, according to those who think God knows our choice before hand - God already knew that Abraham would not hesitate in offering Isaac, since God is omniscient, right?

Of course, Bro. Anything else makes God's knowledge contingent upon man.

But when I see verse 12's second part, it makes me think that God did not see beyond Abraham's choice until Abraham actually did it or else this whole things become just a formality.

Did God foreknow He would test Abraham?

[RickD]

RickD on Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:57 am

I am sorry bro, no offense, but I don't buy it. "I believe you're thinking way too much into this. You're making it way more complicated than it has to be." won't cut it bro. You have to show me how it is wrong. By simply asserting something does not prove it. I believe I have presented my pov, quite detailed with examples. And I fail to see how God's foreknowledge will not affect us, it would.


I've said why I believe what I believe about this subject, already. IMO, it doesn't really mean all that much to me one way or the other what you believe about this. It's a non-essential belief, that, is even less essential than other non-essentials. I'm at peace with what I believe with this, and it's fine with me if you are at peace with your belief, as well. So, as we're going around in circles, I'll bow out, and let you guys continue if you want.

I understand Rick, no problems. peace brother.

I apologize if you thought I was unnecessarily dragging the subject to make it complicated for you, that was not my intention. Teaching the Bible for years has kind of made my habit of studying like this, cuz you never know when some smart headed student might ask you about it.

Neo, I don't think you're dragging the subject to make it complicated for me. I just think we're going around in circles, at this point. I think You are looking too deeply into this. I think you are making something complicated, that can be explained in a much simpler way.

[RickD]

B.W. wrote:

God foreknows the final result of that His call will have on all people. Now known that a person who rejects God’s word, can be fashioned a Pharaoh for whatever sovereign purposes God desires, or since known to accept, fashioned into a Jeremiah or better yet, back into the image of Christ like character.

I agree with B.W. here. This gets to the heart of why I believe what I believe about God's omniscience. That's why I can't believe it the way you guys are putting forth.

[domokunrox]

I dunno guys. I think the very fact that we can consider it makes it broken.

I stand by that our free will actions have an effect. Our life path can only have foreknowledge up to a point because we need to freely act first. Part of our free will is that we can follow God's plan or not.

Citing the bible's prophecy as foreknowledge is very misleading. God took action. He didn't just "know" it. Knowing something doesn't translate into actions of another being until it really has happened.

Actions and events speak louder then words or predictions.

This is the very gist of what I was saying. I have absolutely no problem with God being omniscient. But the manner in which some of you guys are thinking of it, it is broken.

Is it non essential to salvation? Yes
Is it non essential to apologetics? No! Its a big problem! This is all that I really wanted to convey out to you guys. As an apologetic, this has to be part of my defense plan from time to time. The answer you guys are giving will NOT work. Just pointing it out to you guys.