Evidence for God from Science

neo-x wrote:

Danieltwotwenty on Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:24 pm

Choice and predestination doesn't go hand in hand


Our brains must compute data differently, as i can reconcile them easily in my mind.

Dan, I am not talking about our choices. Predestination's line of thinking is, if God willed something to happen, it will happen, regardless of choice, as a matter of fact in our case, if God willed it, it will happen, you can say good bye to your choice.

See my point.

Right so you say if God willed something to happen - well if you notice right now it is God's choice to will something and if he wills something its because he freely choose to then it will happen. So i think it will only happen if God desires it and his desires come from his 'the Good' nature which is his character. It will be like me saying - I'm gonna go get chips in the future because i definitely want chips and if i didnt want chips i would definitely not get them.

neo-x wrote:

CeT-To on Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:18 pm

neo-x wrote:
I wish there was a brain explosion emoticon.


Choice and predestination doesn't go hand in hand, Dan. If God had choices, he had them from forever and I think you would certainly agree with me that if he wished, he could change them at his will.

But when we peruse the line of thinking about predestination (please note we are not talking about omniscience here), that something was going to happen because God willed it to happen, God wants it to happen. Then, can God change it, once he made it?


NEO LOL YOUR 666TH POST!!!

Lol...I missed it, in all the predestiniation thing....arrrgh wanted to see it

Wow i just realised im nearing mine ....

Right so you say if God willed something to happen - well if you notice right now it is God's choice to will something and if he wills something its because he freely choose to then it will happen. So i think it will only happen if God desires it and his desires come from his 'the Good' nature which is his character. It will be like me saying - I'm gonna go get chips in the future because i definitely want chips and if i didnt want chips i would definitely not get them.

But can he change his, can he say, "well I don't want chips now. I wanted to but not any more"???

You see, because his predestination would ultimately affect us. That is why I said, this kind of leaves no room for changing of will.

Yes, one can say, God never changes his will once he makes up his mind. okay. But may be, and it's just me, I prefer to think otherwise.

I think we have too over-formulated God into precise, defined boxes and he can't get out of it. He has to be defined in our senses, on our terms. he can do this, he can't do that. I think that is what many theologians have done and likewise a lot of people as well. And as soon as you think otherwise, you are met with rebuttal after rebuttal. Sure somethings are wrong and should be refuted, must be rebutted, but if something is mere speculation to begin with, it can not cancel another speculation. That is the general attitude in churches.

neo-x wrote:

Right so you say if God willed something to happen - well if you notice right now it is God's choice to will something and if he wills something its because he freely choose to then it will happen. So i think it will only happen if God desires it and his desires come from his 'the Good' nature which is his character. It will be like me saying - I'm gonna go get chips in the future because i definitely want chips and if i didnt want chips i would definitely not get them.

But can he change his, can he say, "well I don't want chips now. I wanted to but not any more"???

LOL no and thats the point that is why he is God - for some one to change his mind would mean that he is imperfect because of lacking knowledge yet this isn't the case for God he never changes his mind because he is perfect.

CeT-To » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:15 pm

neo-x wrote:
Right so you say if God willed something to happen - well if you notice right now it is God's choice to will something and if he wills something its because he freely choose to then it will happen. So i think it will only happen if God desires it and his desires come from his 'the Good' nature which is his character. It will be like me saying - I'm gonna go get chips in the future because i definitely want chips and if i didnt want chips i would definitely not get them.


But can he change his, can he say, "well I don't want chips now. I wanted to but not any more"???

LOL no and thats the point that is why he is God - for some one to change his mind would mean that he is imperfect because of lacking knowledge yet this isn't the case for God he never changes his mind because he is perfect.

LOL...I think we are being too tight on God, here. Changing his mind wouldn't make him imperfect. It is not like he can mess up on his own will, can he? This is flawed thinking. Lack of knowledge is not even a factor here. He can change his mind with all knowledge.

in gen chp 6
God had a change of heart

5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

If he was deeply upset, then why? he always knew it will happen. Why did he regret? did things not go according to plan? and if they did, then why the shock?

neo-x wrote:

CeT-To » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:15 pm

neo-x wrote:
Right so you say if God willed something to happen - well if you notice right now it is God's choice to will something and if he wills something its because he freely choose to then it will happen. So i think it will only happen if God desires it and his desires come from his 'the Good' nature which is his character. It will be like me saying - I'm gonna go get chips in the future because i definitely want chips and if i didnt want chips i would definitely not get them.


But can he change his, can he say, "well I don't want chips now. I wanted to but not any more"???

LOL no and thats the point that is why he is God - for some one to change his mind would mean that he is imperfect because of lacking knowledge yet this isn't the case for God he never changes his mind because he is perfect.

LOL...I think we are being too tight on God, here. Changing his mind wouldn't make him imperfect. It is not like he can mess up on his own will, can he? This is flawed thinking. Lack of knowledge is not even a factor here. He can change his mind with all knowledge.

Alright then, give me a situation where he would need to change his mind where it wouldn't be grounded in lacking in knowledge?

check my previous post, I edited it, Cet-to

neo-x wrote:

CeT-To » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:15 pm

neo-x wrote:
Right so you say if God willed something to happen - well if you notice right now it is God's choice to will something and if he wills something its because he freely choose to then it will happen. So i think it will only happen if God desires it and his desires come from his 'the Good' nature which is his character. It will be like me saying - I'm gonna go get chips in the future because i definitely want chips and if i didnt want chips i would definitely not get them.


But can he change his, can he say, "well I don't want chips now. I wanted to but not any more"???

LOL no and thats the point that is why he is God - for some one to change his mind would mean that he is imperfect because of lacking knowledge yet this isn't the case for God he never changes his mind because he is perfect.

LOL...I think we are being too tight on God, here. Changing his mind wouldn't make him imperfect. It is not like he can mess up on his own will, can he? This is flawed thinking. Lack of knowledge is not even a factor here. He can change his mind with all knowledge.

in gen chp 6
God had a change of heart

5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

If he was deeply upset, then why? he always knew it will happen. Why did he regret? did things not go according to plan? and if they did, then why the shock?

Ahh so it is lack of knowledge see! because as you think he was in shock, which i don't think it is the case. Things did go according to plan remember he knows the end from the beginning.

It is perfectly conceivable that God knew this yet he was still hurt at heart when the time came for it.

Ahh so it is lack of knowledge see! because as you think he was in shock, which i don't think it is the case.

I like to think it was.

Things did go according to plan remember he knows the end from the beginning.

No cet-to you are mixing two different things here, predestination and omniscience, forget what HE knew, you are saying now that it was his plan that all the people in the flood die because he already knew.(was that his plan?) If he predestined all of them would die, then that is a different matter. If he knew they will die, that is different. In case of predestination, he set it that way that they die and only Noah is saved. They had simply no choice in the matter.

Please do not confuse the two. Omniscience and predestination are two different things. Predestinations means, he set the events to be like they happened (since the beginning, this is not omniscient information, it is his will), no matter what anyone, thinks, believes or chooses. Omniscience carries a sense of choice on our part, predestination doesn't.

My question, was the flood of Noah, predestined?

neo-x wrote:

Ahh so it is lack of knowledge see! because as you think he was in shock, which i don't think it is the case.

I like to think it was.

Things did go according to plan remember he knows the end from the beginning.

No cet-to you are mixing two different things here, predestination and omniscience, forget what HE knew, you are saying now that it was his plan that all the people in the flood die because he already knew.(was that his plan?) If he predestined all of them would die, then that is a different matter. If he knew they will die, that is different. In case of predestination, he set it that way that they die and only Noah is saved. They had simply no choice in the matter.

Please do not confuse the two. Omniscience and predestination are two different things. Predestinations means, he set the events to be like they happened, no matter what anyone, thinks, believes or chooses. Omniscience carries a sense of choice on our part, predestination doesn't.

Not at all these things mix naturally because God knowing what they will do with their free will put people to a specific time and place so that in the end of history the most number of people are saved. God sets all the pieces in place knowing what the pieces will do with their free will so that his plan achieves the greatest amount possible saved.

There is a fine difference between predestination and omniscience, first Daniel mistakenly confused the two, now you.

So please guys, lets define these

Omniscience = God knows all, regardless of his own will. I can go to McDonald's tomorrow, God does not have to agree with me on this, but yeah, he knows it.

Predestination = God wants me to go to McDonald, it is predestined, it can not be changed. This now involves God's will and intent. He wants it done. In both cases God knows before hand, but in the latter, God wills it, it is he who designed it and my choice simply does not count.

So you see, what kind of implication your statement would give, if the flood of Noah went according to God's plan? If so then we are not talking about omniscience, because that does not carries God's will, but the idea that he knows everything. But when we say, things went as planned, that means predestination, God willed it. It happened that way because God wanted it to happen that way. He designed it that way. So lets not confuse the two. You might make the wrong statement, without realizing it, bros.

neo-x wrote:There is a fine difference between predestination and omniscience, first Daniel mistakenly confused the two, now you.

So please guys, lets define these

Omniscience = God knows all, regardless of his own will. I can go to McDonald's tomorrow, God does not have to agree with me on this, but yeah, he knows it.

Predestination = God wants me to go to McDonald, it is predestined, it can not be changed. This now involves God's will and intent. He wants it done. In both cases God knows before hand, but in the latter, God wills it, it is he who designed it and my choice simply does not count.

So you see, what kind of implication your statement would give, if the flood of Noah went according to God's plan? If so then we are not talking about omniscience, because that does not carries God's will, but the idea that he knows everything. But when we say, things went as planned, that means predestination, God willed it. It happened that way because God wanted it to happen that way. He designed it that way. So lets not confuse the two. You might make the wrong statement, without realizing it, bros.

Okay lets back track a little, God's will comes from his desire which comes from his nature/character which is 'the Good'. how does God get his will done perfectly? By knowing everything that could possibly happen (Omniscience) and by choosing to make one of those possible realities into an actual reality ( Omniscience + Predestination). God can't choose to make his perfect will happen ( predestination) without knowing everything possible ( omniscience) it logically follows. So how does God predestine without interfering with creatures who are endowed by free will? By placing certain people in a certain place and a certain time( plus God choosing specific times to intervene) where in the end through the creatures free will they actualise the greatest amount of possible people saved. This hinged on the fact that there is NO such possible reality where everyone is saved.

Predestination = God wants me to go to McDonald, it is predestined, it can not be changed. This now involves God's will and intent. He wants it done. In both cases God knows before hand, but in the latter, God wills it, it is he who designed it and my choice simply does not count.

Predestination= God knows I'll go to McDonalds, it's predestined, it cannot be changed. Since God knows that I will be at McDonalds at 5:09 pm, then that cannot change. It was my choice to go there at that time. And God knew that. And since God knew that, it cannot change. Before you say, "what if I changed my mind, and went to Burger King, instead?". Well, then that would be predestined, because God would also know you were going to change your mind. You can't pull a fast one on God. Besides, McDonalds menu is a much better value than BK.

Wow, didn't realize my assertions would spur on another back and forth over predestination.

Phillip, if by human nature you mean, that he was without sin, then, yes.

Yes, that's certainly close to what I meant. But when I said that Jesus' human nature "cloak" did not change WHO He was, I was not saying that He also was not fully human, fully able to be tempted, just as all of us in the flesh are. But Jesus' MINDSET and His WILL did NOT change. He made decisions and gave us revelations that only God could make. Yet did Jesus voluntarily forgo some of His abilities during His incarnation - I would say yes. But this didn't change the God part of Him - which is Spirit AND UNCHANGEABLE.

Also, in addressing the why of an all-knowing God ever experiencing regret: Well, it's like IF WE could foresee disappointments that our children would one day give us - just because we could ALWAYS see it coming and still allowed it, doesn't mean that it wouldn't still hurt when we actually get to the experience that disappointment in real time, even though we already knew exactly what was going to happen. The giving of free will means also that God would also have to experience (and also knew the specifics of) great disappointments and anger over the actions of His creatures. But His overall plan addresses and is perfectly designed to accomplish His END of game/time results.

You see, as God desired before time to give us free will, it also means that God is patient in waiting out and responding accordingly to our actions, albeit in OUR real time. However, our free will is limited in certain parameters - we can't fly, we can't become invisible, we aren't all-knowing, aren't impervious to God's interventions, or His swaying and His enormous influences, and we can't change the locked in and ENDING parameters (Heaven or hell) He has linked to OUR free will choices (He will sway, sometimes intervene or influence along the way, but He won't force the choice HE gave us - to either rebel or repent/love/have faith). And, our free will cannot triumph over God's ULTIMATE will for us (AFTER this life). Allowing sin and a fallen world are TEMPORARY things God allow, otherwise He'd likely have wiped us all out before Adam and Eve ever left the garden.

by RickD on Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:39 pm

Predestination = God wants me to go to McDonald, it is predestined, it can not be changed. This now involves God's will and intent. He wants it done. In both cases God knows before hand, but in the latter, God wills it, it is he who designed it and my choice simply does not count.

Predestination= God knows I'll go to McDonalds, it's predestined, it cannot be changed. Since God knows that I will be at McDonalds at 5:09 pm, then that cannot change. It was my choice to go there at that time. And God knew that. And since God knew that, it cannot change. Before you say, "what if I changed my mind, and went to Burger King, instead?". Well, then that would be predestined, because God would also know you were going to change your mind. You can't pull a fast one on God. Besides, McDonalds menu is a much better value than BK.

No, Rick. You completely missed my point. when I say predestination, I mean, plans hard set in concrete, can not change, whatsoever, designed by God, not by our will. That would be just knowledge to God, if he knows what we will do. But predestined events are bound to happen, anyway.

That is the difference here, predestination is, God willed something to happen, he just didn't know it. He wanted it.

Was the lamb of God, who was slain before the foundations of the earth were ever laid down, slain because God saw in the future and saw that he will be accepted by 12 apostles, just that, nothing else. This is just info, not predestination, Rick. This is God's redemptive plan, regardless of human will. Did man ever willed God to send his son? No. This was initiated by God, totally independent of human choices.

I am talking about predestination apart from our choices. what about prophecies which are hard set. I am not talking about predestination of our actions. choice and predestination doesn't coincide. You are looking at it from the opposite side. You are tracing predestination, from your action and backwards. I am not saying this at all.

Predestination can exist without human will and intent.

btw. simply put, these are two different things, if something is predestined, it is predestined, your choice or my choice does not matter at all. Was Jesus predestined to be born? according to your definition, its because God saw Mary in the future saying yes to the angel, that's it. This just a result of the plan that God started, not the cause of God's plan, his will and intent. God''s big plans are not set by looking into the future at human responses. His plans are not our plans, rick. Jesus would be born, whether someone wanted it or not. so the prophecies could be fulfilled.

Predestination implies God's will, as in prophecies. For example, what you are saying can be perused to really absurd conclusions. For example, was the Holocaust predestined?

You can say it was, based on Hitler's decision which God knew. Technically it would be just omniscience to God, not predestination. predestination would mean, God designed Hitler to be like this and so he went and ultimately God was responsible for the Holocaust. So the definition of predestination you are using is not whole, as I showed you above. Predestination is bigger then our choices, Rick. or else what is predestination if it is not designed by God.

Besides, McDonalds menu is a much better value than BK.

I agree with you on this.

God designed Hitler to be like this and so he went and ultimately God was responsible for the Holocaust.

So are you saying GOD caused Hitler to sin?; That GOD caused the slaughter of 6 million of His chosen race?; That GOD desired the unthinkable abominations, evils and massive suffering caused by the Nazis? Our Holy God, Who hates sin? Wow!