Evidence for God from Science

I won't argue about what we DON'T know about the surgeon's story. But what we DO know is that this man, by his own admission, was NOT a believer before saying he visited heaven. So you think that is possible - that a non Christian can go to heaven, if even briefly? On what basis would one believe this? Not only that, but he comes back with a description of heaven that is right out of the movies, and yet has NOTHING to say about seeing or God/Jesus or being aware of His presence? He comes back spewing scripturally contradicting nonsense about the living being able to converse with the dead - which, by the way, we are strictly warned to not attempt this (Deuteronomy 18:11; Isaiah 8:19). And we have not one positive example of this in scripture, and we're strongly warned that such a practice opens the door to demonic deception.

Can those who don't believe in Jesus before their death be saved AFTER they are dead. The Bible says absolutely not. And ignorance of Scripture is no excuse. Romans 2:12 tells us: "For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law." However, ARE THERE people whom might respond positively to the Gospel message if they were to hear it - sure, possibly, some. Does, at perhaps the cusp of (but BEFORE) death, Jesus reveal Himself to SOME who have never heard His message, or that this happens and no one sees this happen before some die? Possibly. But we have no way of knowing. But one thing IS certain, "ALL people everywhere" (Acts 17:30) must repent and believe in Jesus in order to be saved - BEFORE death. So if such miraculous, saving communications/appearances by Jesus happen to some (that we do not/cannot know about), all we can honestly say is, "we just don't know!"

Paul stated: "God is NOT a religion, Christ is NOT a religion. We make religions to express our faith for them BUT they supersede religions."

But God's word is TRUTH! And it says "ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE" must repent BEFORE death.

And we have no indications that there are second chances after death: "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment ..."

Paul, you would seem to be making an argument that we shouldn't believe God would allow those of another faith to go to hell because they don't know the truth about Jesus or the Gospel message. But Romans clearly says they ALREADY know enough to believe in God or to reject Him (and remember, Jesus is part of God, so to reject God as He has revealed Himself - even if Jesus has not been revealed to them yet - is to also reject God as He truly is).

Romans 1: "18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Notice in the above Scripture that not one word about rejecting Jesus is even mentioned. Why? This Romans passage is saying rejecting God as He has ALREADY revealed Himself - even if that hasn't included direct knowledge of Jesus and the Gospel - is enough to seal one's doom. God is saying He has ALREADY revealed enough, and it also implies that for those who would reject even the knowledge He has already given them, that further knowledge of Jesus would not profit them, as they would only reject that knowledge as well. Is this certain? We have no way of knowing or any Scriptural reason to believe otherwise.

And note the other New Age like assertions the doctor says about his experience: He describes "the Gateway or the Core" in which a being tells him, "THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO WRONG." And he comes back stating that there is no ONE religion that offers the way to God. These are all things that directly contradict the teachings found in Scripture. And so to believe the assertions of this surgeon is a very dangerous thing to buy into.

Mallz wrote:I do have one question that's been on my mind. And correct me if I'm wrong...

The implications of your account show that in Sheol, demons have rule over fallen humankind. The natural end to those who follow satan; is it to be ruled by him and his legions in such a fashion? Would that imply God's justice is being perpetrated by demons? This is confusing to me.

Does this mean to choose to not be with God, is choosing to be with satan and his minions? Why would they be in position of power over fallen humans when they, themselves, are not only fallen, but worse off that any fallen human from falling from perfection? Shouldn't their existence in Sheol be of repercussions from rejecting God instead of power?

Hi Mallz,

What does the bible say about these things? That is what we all should stick with. I’ll answer from my experience but this experience shapes my opinion. Therefore, I’ll give you my opinion on this matter as it pertains to the bible as best as I can and pray that it helps answers your questions.

First, the scriptures reveal what in 1 John 5:19, 2 Co 4:4, and Eph 2:2 ?

Next in regards to sheol – Jesus stated this about it in Matthew 25:41 that it was prepared for the devil and his minions. Isa 24:22 sets forth a principle that the current hell is liken to a prison. The word translated prison in the text from the Hebrew denotes a place of incarceration and detainment, a holding center, but not the final abode of the d-mned. It was expressed by Jesus in Matthew 25:41 – a place made to hold the devil and his minions.

People who don’t know the Lord are not his children and are called in the bible – children of the devil, see 1 John 3:10. Jesus told the Pharisees of his time on earth that their father was the devil in John 8:44. So the principle holds true Paul speaks of in Eph 2:3 and Romans 5: 8,10c. We are all enemies of God before becoming saved and thus this prison was for us too, but Jesus saved us from this demise – of living death.

So demons have rule over the unsaved and natural world of humanity. Jesus came and broke that power and gave his people power to resist the devil and he will flee. For us, we find a new found liberty in becoming Christ like in conduct and character.

Now to try to explain what demons do in hell and if they rule there over people. Job 41:34 expressed a principle about the devil that he is ruler over all the children of pride; therefore, what does that say to you of their role in the current prison of hell?

Next, demons are not meting out God’s justice as you describe - its a bit different than that. Let's look: Sheol – hell is a place of God’s wrath/anger Deut 32:22. It is his anger / wrath that exposes what all the d-mned are truly like. Job 26:5 NKJV and Job 26:6 NKJV bring this principle out. The demons inside sheol, don’t like it there as recorded in Matt 8:29 – a place of torment for them too. Hard to explain in five easy words or less. God’s wrath exposes them for whom and what they are really like just as it does with human spirits (hell is naked before God and ruin has no covering note the Job 26 ref). The difference is that, it is the demonic nature to cause misery and death.

These beings are described as the rulers of the atmosphere around earth and thus, there in hell, are like, no other way to say it, like guards living true to their own character and nature because the wrath of God exposes/proving what is truly within a being, exposing their real true self, thus, readying the whole lot for the future lake of fire, Rev 20:14-15.

In the lake of fire, they will not rule, nor shall anyone in it, the full fury of God’s just wrath is made manifest, then, on a despicable lot whose true nature and character has been fully revealed in the holding center. The sense of God’s justice is proving beyond all reasonable doubt how unredeemable all in sheol and in the future lake of fire really are. God’s justice leaves no stone unturned – it is truly fearful to fall into the hands of the living God as an unsaved person and face this about oneself. See what and who you really are with all the pretenses and excuses.

In that sense, God’s justice is carried out by the very nature of his just wrath and not by anything ease as his wrath reveals the real person. Demons are not perpetrating God’s justice in hell. You could say that they retain their authority over the children of pride and uncover others true nature in degrees of payback as God's wrath reveals their nature/character too. Recall, demonic beings hate it there and suffer torment there as well too and that drives them, well, mad and they lash out on those they help capture. That is why the demons in the demoniac begged Jesus not to torment them before their appointed time, for that, they did not want to return to sheol.

Don’t get me wrong, Paul mentions that he turned someone over to the devil for the destruction of their fleshly sin – yes – demons can carry out functions of God’s justice but are not the means of that justice. The means of just recompense exposes what is in the heart proving unredeemableness to those in hell. Hope this makes sense. No other way to simply explain it.

Mallz you asked: Does this mean to choose to not be with God, is choosing to be with satan and his minions?

Yes, but most folks don’t think there even is a satan and think they’re goodness outweighs their badness never realizing that since they do both, in reality, shows they can’t ever not stop doing bad. People choose from the choice God confronts them with. Pride often gets in the way of making an intelligent choice. (reap what you sow)

Mallzm you asked: Why would they be in position of power over fallen humans when they, themselves, are not only fallen, but worse off that any fallen human from falling from perfection? Shouldn't their existence in Sheol be of repercussions from rejecting God instead of power?

I hope I explained some of this to you already. There is more. You see God gives promises, gifts, and callings. He does not take these back as that would show he can’t keep his word and disproves his own justice. The fallen angelic beings before they fell were given certain promises, gifts, and callings. Bible calls them rulers of the air Eph 6:10-19, Ezekiel 28:12-19. They rebelled, and like we humans when Adam rebelled, God did not take away what he promised humanity in Gen 1:26-28 did he? Who was responsible for changing sides and using dominion as their own gods? So they, like us, have the authority God gave them and they abuse it in the fallen state. The promise is still there - dominion we do exercise - in a fallen way, albeit.

As for the last part – demons do suffer repercussion – what does Rev 20:14-15, Rev 21:8, 27, Rev 22:15 reveal to you?
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You've answered all my questions to satisfaction, thank you. I wanted to reply real quick as I've been busy, but have read your post multiple times. I think I'll have more questions coming, given some time ^.^ Plus questions from others who are reading your book.

Thanks for the thorough response!

I'm sure the answers are here and I've looked, but am having a hard time coming up with them. So here I go:

I've become confused as to our state of being now and after death.
1) Are we not mortal and immortal currently? Our spiritual souls created by God intertwined with our physical shells created from our parents? Our bodies are mortal, but our spirit is eternal? Are our spirits not eternal?

2) What happens after death? Aren't we all asleep waiting to be judged? If so that would go against your experience where those deserving of hell would immediately go there after death. Or are those to be judged sleeping and those convicted by refusal of Christ already convicted not needing judgement? How does this tie in with the 1000 years? Is it only those through the rapture and those that died in Christ will be raised for it? The rest of humanity waiting till the end for judgement? If thats the case... I'm just real confused now.

Please explain. What happens to the variety of souls after death? Who will be alive with Christ in the 1000 years? Who will be resurrected after the 1000 year reign? When does judgement occur? When does one go to hell? If one escapes judgement are they resurrected before or after 1000 years? etc. etc. etc. I'd like as much insight about this topic as possible. If we need to start a new thread, then ok!

Mallz wrote: I'm sure the answers are here and I've looked, but am having a hard time coming up with them. So here I go:

I've become confused as to our state of being now and after death.

1) Are we not mortal and immortal currently? Our spiritual souls created by God intertwined with our physical shells created from our parents? Our bodies are mortal, but our spirit is eternal? Are our spirits not eternal?

2) What happens after death? Aren't we all asleep waiting to be judged? If so that would go against your experience where those deserving of hell would immediately go there after death. Or are those to be judged sleeping and those convicted by refusal of Christ already convicted not needing judgement? How does this tie in with the 1000 years? Is it only those through the rapture and those that died in Christ will be raised for it? The rest of humanity waiting till the end for judgement? If thats the case... I'm just real confused now.

Please explain. What happens to the variety of souls after death? Who will be alive with Christ in the 1000 years? Who will be resurrected after the 1000 year reign? When does judgement occur? When does one go to hell? If one escapes judgement are they resurrected before or after 1000 years? etc. etc. etc. I'd like as much insight about this topic as possible. If we need to start a new thread, then ok!

Hi Mallz,

In regards to question one:

Are we not mortal and immortal currently?

The answer is yes…

Our spiritual souls created by God intertwined with our physical shells created from our parents?

You can say that is why life begins in the womb for us. God gives life to the soul/spirit in the womb. With this in mind, what Peter writes in 1 Peter 3:7 regarding that the husband and wife are joint heirs together in the grace gift of life takes on a more profound meaning.

Our bodies are mortal, but our spirit is eternal?

Yes, are bodies are mortal. In this, we have a second chance to be reconciled to God, whereas, once entering an eternal state, one would not have this chance, Why, answer: due to the fuller understanding of who God is as to His attributes and Nature that comes in the eternal state, a being, could exploit the attributes of God for one’s own gain. The devil did this and still does. We also do this as well due to the fallen nature of man.

Are our spirits not eternal?

There is confusion over what defines a spirit and a soul due to, theological nitpicking. Often, in the bible, spirit and soul are used use to describe distinct parts of human oneness, and others, they are gelled together so that this distinction is not at all clear. Sometimes, a biblical writer will combine soul and spirit together and a reader will not pay attention to the context of a bible passage and gain a wrong idea of what these words mean.

Yes, our spirits are eternal as well as our souls because they had a definite beginning during the womb/birth phase of human beginnings. They are designed by God to be thus. This poses a great responsibility. Eccl 3:11 NKJV and Eccl 3:14 mention this: verse 14 pertains to things God does in regard to designing us and of judgment for what we do with such gift as this just as the context lays out in Eccl 3:15-22. 2 Sam 14:14 reveals this principle as well.

Zec 12:1 makes a bold statement that verifies Eccl 3:11 as do these verses: Gen 2:7; Num 16:22; Eccl 12:7; Isa 57:16; Jer 38:16; Eze 18:4; Heb 12:9

Mallz wrote:
2) What happens after death? Aren't we all asleep waiting to be judged? If so that would go against your experience where those deserving of hell would immediately go there after death. Or are those to be judged sleeping and those convicted by refusal of Christ already convicted not needing judgement? How does this tie in with the 1000 years? Is it only those through the rapture and those that died in Christ will be raised for it? The rest of humanity waiting till the end for judgement? If thats the case... I'm just real confused now.

Please explain. What happens to the variety of souls after death? Who will be alive with Christ in the 1000 years? Who will be resurrected after the 1000 year reign? When does judgement occur? When does one go to hell? If one escapes judgement are they resurrected before or after 1000 years? etc. etc. etc. I'd like as much insight about this topic as possible. If we need to start a new thread, then ok!

In regards to question two – let me repost in another frame as this question has a lot to it!
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Mallz wrote:

2) What happens after death? Aren't we all asleep waiting to be judged? If so that would go against your experience where those deserving of hell would immediately go there after death. Or are those to be judged sleeping and those convicted by refusal of Christ already convicted not needing judgement? How does this tie in with the 1000 years? Is it only those through the rapture and those that died in Christ will be raised for it? The rest of humanity waiting till the end for judgement? If thats the case... I'm just real confused now.

Please explain. What happens to the variety of souls after death? Who will be alive with Christ in the 1000 years? Who will be resurrected after the 1000 year reign? When does judgement occur? When does one go to hell? If one escapes judgement are they resurrected before or after 1000 years? etc. etc. etc. I'd like as much insight about this topic as possible. If we need to start a new thread, then ok!

Hi Mallz,

on to question two:

2) What happens after death? Aren't we all asleep waiting to be judged? If so that would go against your experience where those deserving of hell would immediately go there after death. Or are those to be judged sleeping and those convicted by refusal of Christ already convicted not needing judgement? How does this tie in with the 1000 years? Is it only those through the rapture and those that died in Christ will be raised for it? The rest of humanity waiting till the end for judgement? If that's the case... I'm just real confused now.

Again, words used in the bible such as sleep, awake, death, grave, pit, hell, heaven, Mountain of God, God's dwelling place, Sheol, death are defined by context of the text where they are written. Many words are used interchangeably to express the same idea. We do this all the time with words and have no problem understanding them. As for the word used to denote death as sleep - it does not mean sleep in the sense of sleeping - rather awakening in another state. Think of it this way, you sleep and you awake to dreaming. You do not cease to exist while you sleep but rather awake into another state - a dream state. You are still conscious. Likewise the sleep of death the bible mentions describes awaking not into a dream state but rather an eternal state - the ultimate reality. As well as describes how those whose mortal time has passed, look like they are sleeping. The mortal body then decays and returns to dust but the spiritual being goes back to God for judgment.

Romans chapter 3, 4, 5 answers a lot of your question too regarding why folks are judged and why. As for the 1000 year reign mentioned in the closing chapters of the Book of Revelation, is regards to another matter involving the last days and the ushering in of the New Heavens and Earth and the final sentencing to the big house (lake of Fire) of those who reject the Lord.

A person is judged at the point in which they finally die as Hebrews 9:27 explains. The Lord changes not and he can raise someone from the dead still, but later even that person will finally die. This is a just judgment exposing a person to the real them. No one can hide from such judgment. If you are found in Christ - then you are judged on the basis of what is known as rewards (Mat 6:1, 1 Co 3:8, 2 Co 5:10 , Rev 22:12). I will not go into this further as others can explain this better than I can in far fewer words than I would use. The basis for the rewards is for service that we are even unaware of as brought out in Matthew 25: 25-46. For those that reject God's pardon - well John 3:36 says it better than I can.

I'll toss out a deep thought here: God's wrath is not like human wrath. God's wrath exposes what is in the heart, justly. When God was angry at the ancient Israelites - his anger exposed what was in the heart. When the ferociousness of His wrath burns - it uncovers all. The person sees himself as he or she really is and knows full well how dark they are and would become.... The problem is with us, we don't see how dark we are without God, nor do we comprehend how much darker we would become without being arrested. Just as a convicted criminal justifies his crime and feel sorrow for being caught, we do the same in this life. Our crimes, are not crimes, because of the mental justification and mental twisting we do. We like to think that our good is greater, our noblest endeavors cancel out any wrongness we be caught with. Such mental gymnastics hide and clothe us in fig leaves. God calls out, to be reconciled, extends his Hand to save, and many folks refuse the lift to safety due to the change it brings in the soul. God's goodness is viewed as badness, his saving hand slapped away, in exchange for what? It is that slapping away that convicts a person before God. If such folks were simply allowed into God's Heaven, then wouldn't the streets of gold have chiseled out pot holes and such heaven be turned into a cesspool because they refuse to behold the majesty of the Lord, Isa 26:10. Think on it a bit...

Question 2-continued: Please explain. What happens to the variety of souls after death? Who will be alive with Christ in the 1000 years? Who will be resurrected after the 1000 year reign? When does judgement occur? When does one go to hell? If one escapes judgement are they resurrected before or after 1000 years? etc. etc. etc. I'd like as much insight about this topic as possible. If we need to start a new thread, then ok!

As for this part - it involves prophetic events for the future. The bible answers this in Rev 20:1-15 and I'll leave it at that because there are many different POV's on this. Mine is, I do not fully know what it means other than what it says. It involves the final reckoning mentioned in Isaiah 14:9-20 and the ushering in of what Revelation chapters 21 and 22 mention. The answer to the prayers and question of many - why doesn't the Lord just be done with evil and the devil... Even with that, some folks don't like the answer...slapping away the hand of God who came to save and reconcile them back to God.

Also, in the past, your questions were explored in the following threads ... please check these out for fuller answers... and be logged in to read these.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 4&start=15

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... soul+sleep

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... ep#p106592

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... soul+sleep

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... soul+sleep

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... soul+sleep
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I would like to address the comments made as to why the punishments seem so unfair to us who are here on earth. Take into account this one aspect. If you were to...say...attack someone on the street, whether it be a thug, or a criminal, or even a homeless person or just an average Joe...what do you think would be the repercussions in regards to the law? Obviously, according to the law there are consequences that would follow such an act of violence against another human being.
Now let's look at a similar scenario where the person you attack is the President of the United States. What would be the consequences now? Besides the repercussions of the law, you would also be detained for a longer period of time, your entire life will come under scrutiny of investigation to determine your motivations to act against the top representative of our government, etc...
Why would the results lead to a different more stringent exercise in punitive measures when the same crime was committed to different people? Simply because of the greatness of the person who is assaulted. In another words, what the person represents (ie. the president representing our national interests) determines the importance of their role and therefore a much greater attention and punishment is given. The death of a thug or even an average person may not even create a ripple in world events, but the same thing happening to the president would affect the entire world in more ways than can be described in this response.
So my point is...when we sin, it isn't just against a person, or just against the creation, but it's Creator. God is an eternal being who has created us with the intent for us to exist with him forever. To sin against the eternal God would require an eternal punishment. Beside the fact the God's eternal qualities are enough to condemn sinners to an eternal hell, it is in that very vein where people's nature is revealed as "sinners" a nature that cannot be changed. It can only be destroyed because we were meant to exist forever from the moment of our creation.
The only way for God to reconcile the world to himself was to send Christ to suffer and die for ungodly people in order to redeem them, literally recreate them as "new creations" with a new and different nature. This is what it means to be born again. Through Christ we die to ourselves to live unto God, and we are given a new nature when we become born again. What we are called to do once that happens is to put to death, mortify, the deeds of the carnal nature so that we are not condemned with the world. How go about this process is what demonstrates the true judgment of God in that he is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
The allow corrupted beings to continue on perpetuating their evil nature would only eventually corrupt the rest of creation over time. The corruption spreads and will contaminate everything...even heaven if it were allowed to enter it. So the punishment IS just because eternal being receive eternal rewards for whatever works they do whether good or bad. Let's do the good and reject the bad. Amen.

The previous post illustrates well the level of offense that sin is to us and to God and that how God's eternal purity cannot accommodate sin in any form. For one, that the whole of creation is would be threatened by any tolerance of evil and God's last enemy which is death. 1 Corinthians 15:26.
It makes the sacrifice of Christ stand out more, as totally sufficient and necessary.

To say that sinners are tortured forever in whatever manner, is partly supported by the idea that God created man to live forever. Yet we know that immortality was conditional then and still is conditional. It was never inherent, and if it ever was, which it wasn't, then Adam would have forfeited that immortality for us anyway. Romans 5:21.

2 Timothy 2:10 immortality has to be realized as it is from Christ, it is not part of us.
1 Timothy 6:16 Only God has immortality, not any human being or any other creature. 1 Timothy 1:17.

We can only get immortality if God puts immortality into us, we don't have it naturally.
That takes place at the return of Christ and the resurrection of course. 1 Corinthians 15:53,54.

Now if God grants immortality to the lost, then it would only be at this time and no other. So if there is supposed to be an everlasting hell at death, then there would have been no life in it until the return of Christ.

The whole point of the doctrine of the natural immortal soul, taught by the serpent in the garden of Eden, is to have life apart from Christ, a natural self sustaining life that no matter how evil one is or how long one is punished, one can never perish.
It is saying that God can never destroy sin, that sin and sinners are immortal, even as great and powerful as He is.

The sting of death is sin, 1 Corinthians 15:56.
If you can't get rid of the cause of death, you cannot get rid of death.

The Bible says God will destroy His last enemy - death. But according to the devil God will never be able to do that.

So ultimately the doctrine of natural immortality, is a lie by the father of lies, an imprecation and defiance of God.

The spiritual or moral implications of the doctrine of natural immortality, is that we have spiritual life as part of our natural humanity. It is called humanism, the base line of occult worship.
People are quite prepared to worship their dead ancestors, nature, self, the god within, etc, rather than Jesus Christ.
They worship the spirits or spirit of humanity.

To have an inherent ability to do good is the essential teaching of Satan. He promised Eve enlightenment upon disobedience. He told her that she was capable of having her eyes opened to knowledge and an existence that of a god.
Jesus never said that. Immortality was conditional, it was direct from the life of God, NOT FROM another source WITHIN.

If we have an inherent ability to do good we don't need a Savior, at least not completely.

The only way to have righteousness is by complete trust and faith, and reliance on Christ.

Inherent righteousness declares that through time we are able to ascend, by the help of Christ to heaven.

Humanism teaches independence from God. And this is what they call liberty.

But it is salvation by works, powered by the natural immortal soul doctrine.

Starhunter wrote:The spiritual or moral implications of the doctrine of natural immortality, is that we have spiritual life as part of our natural humanity. It is called humanism, the base line of occult worship. People are quite prepared to worship their dead ancestors, nature, self, the god within, etc, rather than Jesus Christ. They worship the spirits or spirit of humanity.

To have an inherent ability to do good is the essential teaching of Satan. He promised Eve enlightenment upon disobedience. He told her that she was capable of having her eyes opened to knowledge and an existence that of a god.Jesus never said that. Immortality was conditional, it was direct from the life of God, NOT FROM another source WITHIN.

If we have an inherent ability to do good we don't need a Savior, at least not completely. The only way to have righteousness is by complete trust and faith, and reliance on Christ.Inherent righteousness declares that through time we are able to ascend, by the help of Christ to heaven.

Humanism teaches independence from God. And this is what they call liberty.But it is salvation by works, powered by the natural immortal soul doctrine.

Hi Starhunter, I am posting an old post of mine on 1 Tim 6:16 which you cite. With a few revisions mark with a * that helps sheds light on this subject. It begins with a quote from Discussion Board Members and then I answer afterwards:

J.Davis wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:There is much in scripture that gives evidence to complete death. God never made humanity "eternal souls" that cannot die if God "alone is immortal" (1 Timothy 6:16), why then must we be changed from mortal to immortal, perishable to imperishable? If our spirit is already immortal...and we get new bodies....??

1.That say’s nothing about complete death for humans.

2. If God alone possesses immortality than that would mean that humans could not have immortality so it is not meant to say that God is the only one who can have immortality.

John 3:16 answers your question. God is immortal by nature but he promised that he would give man immortality Titus 1:2. God will raise the dead Revelation 20:13 and put and end to death (no one dies) Revelation 20:14 and just to reinforce this, the bible say’s Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Judgment, that’s it, no death, no one can die and it’s time for the unsaved to account for sins Revelation 20:15.

In any case, as I said earlier, “The why and the intent are very important to God. And his word is made to help and aid us in many areas. His word will cause many feelings, resistance, peace, joy, worrier etc. But it is all good and causes us to keep searching for the truth, not only the truth behind his words but the truth in our heart.”

Everyone thinks about that instead of worrying about if people burn or not. It’s important and it’s best to do just as Jesus said. And when talking about hell it’s best to say what he said.

Let me add to this a bit more:

Does 1 Timothy 6:16 support the conditionalist / annihilationist point of view?

Please note context of 1 Timothy 6 verse 16 starting in verse 13.

1 Timothy 6:13, I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius PilateNKJV

Notice the phrase God who gives life to all things this is a key verse. It is the Immortal God that gives life. The gifts and callings of God are without repentance.

We, as Human beings have a definite being and from the moment of that beginning, eternity was placed in our hearts as humanity was originally designed to be in God’s eternal image.

*The concept of natural immortality of the soul comes from a long line philosophic thought and Thomas Thomas Aquinas explained it as, “The operation of anything follows the mode of its being” (Summa Theologica, Pt. 1, Q. 75, art. 3). I’ll leave that up to another to point out the details of that as to go into it details can side track us.

*Basically, stated is that human beings have a natural beginning and thus were created a living tri-unity of being – the spiritual essence, soul, body all joined as one. I am over simplifying Aquinas but he gets to that point and I further expound on it thusly: We human beings had a definite beginning and were created with an eternal nature (Eccl 3:11,14) and henceforth never ever did we exist prior our concept/birth. Therefore, Jesus Christ, God, always existed having no beginning or end and is thus the Only true Immortal One because he had no beginning.

From 1 Tim 6:13-15 we see the context is about whom?

1 Timothy 6:14, 15, that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lordsNKJV

Now read verse 16 in context is referring to Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 6:16, …who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen. NKJV

We, as human beings had a definite starting point, but Jesus Christ did not, therefore truly He alone is from everlasting to everlasting - always had true immortality.

We human beings had a beginning. The true immortality of God is this: that God has no beginning or end. We on the other hand, had a beginning and from that beginning were fashioned with eternity in our hearts and thus designed to be eternal beings from a specific starting point. We were fashioned eternal beings with a definite beginning. God does not have a beginning and thus He alone is truly Immortal (Having no beginning because God always had immortality).

AMG Word Studies/Dictionary of NT Words sheds more light on this:

athanasía; gen. athanasías, fem. noun from athánatos (n.f.), immortal, which is from the priv. a (G1), without, and thánatos (G2288), death. Rendered "immortality" in 1 Co 15:53-54 of the glorified body of the believer. In the NT it expresses the nature not of life itself, but strictly speaking, only a quality of life such as the quality of the life of God and the resurrection body of the believer. Our bodies are subject to death, mortal (related to thnētós [G2349], to die). Used in Rom 6:12 of the body where it is called "mortal," not simply because it is liable to death but because it is the organ in and through which death carries on its fatal activities.

The only other place where athanas ­a- occurs is 1 Ti 6:16 where the word is used in reference to the Lord Jesus Christ in His manifestation as the God-Man. It is true that He suffered death, His physical body and His spirit separated one from the other, but they did not remain separated. He brought them together once again with an incorruptible body that had all the characteristics that our resurrection body will have.

The Lord Jesus Himself, however, has inherent athanasía, immortality, in that no one could permanently separate His body from His spirit. He raised His body and joined it together with His spirit which temporarily had been committed to the Father. Thus He is the only One who inherently has always had immortality.

The phrase here is as it is found in Gr… "the only one having immortality" (a.t.), meaning that He always had it. He never gave it up and He still has it.

Therefore, athanasía always refers to the non-separation of the spirit. This is the quality of having the spirit attached to the resurrection body, while aphtharsía refers to the incapacity of the new resurrection body to deteriorate. This is a quality, however, that our present bodies do not have but will have in the resurrection.

Look at the retranslated verse 16 below

1 Timothy 6:16, who always had immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

Note the context with the translated verse 16.

1 Timothy 6:13, 14, 15, I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14, that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords…

1 Timothy 6:16, who always had immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

Hope this clarifies things ...

The principles found in the bible that reveal that God placed eternity in our hearts, gives life, reneges on no gifts, does not take away life, such things as this God does, endures forever. This substantiates that He designed human beings and angelic beings with an eternal nature with a definite beginning. Because God alone always had immortality, he shares it as he so ever wills.

For the conditionalist / annihilationist doctrine to be correct it must do so by violating all these principles declared about God found in the bible unable to deny himself.

*There can be only one eternal being, that is God himself; and he only can have immortality and only He can grant that immortal nature to the angels and human beings at their root beginnings as He so wills, not us. He is truly a God of the living in more ways than one.

*Bottom line is that1 Tim 6:16 does not teach that God cannot possibly create beings to be immortal. Instead the text is pointing out that Jesus is the Father of Eternity – God - 2nd person of the One Godhead. It supports the deity of Jesus Christ, not annihilationism.

1 Timothy 6:13, I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things...NKJV

Rom 11:29 ...for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. NASB
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So in essence only God has immortality, which He gives to any He wishes, such as human beings?

I like that. Thank you. The life that Adam received was not ordinary but permanent, and immortal, because that is what God's life is, it cannot be otherwise.

It would always be immortal until the day he sinned.

Ezekiel 18:4,9. " the soul that sins, it shall die"
but he that is just "shall surely live, saith the Lord God."

It must be otherwise. The life given to Adam was a temporary life. Death in this world is God's plan and as such a good thing, I would say a genius to be honest. Without it, there is no life. Death always existed. God doesn't create immortals. Everything he created since forever that we know of, has the potential to perish, should God wish as such.

The only immortal entity is God. If man was truly immortal then even God could not have killed him.

neo-x wrote:It must be otherwise. The life given to Adam was a temporary life. Death in this world is God's plan and as such a good thing, I would say a genius to be honest. Without it, there is no life. Death always existed. God doesn't create immortals. Everything he created since forever that we know of, has the potential to perish, should God wish as such.

The only immortal entity is God. If man was truly immortal then even God could not have killed him.

I agree with that - although I would add that of course God gives us the "gift" of immortality once we believe in the saving grace of his Son.

Silvertusk wrote:

neo-x wrote:It must be otherwise. The life given to Adam was a temporary life. Death in this world is God's plan and as such a good thing, I would say a genius to be honest. Without it, there is no life. Death always existed. God doesn't create immortals. Everything he created since forever that we know of, has the potential to perish, should God wish as such.

The only immortal entity is God. If man was truly immortal then even God could not have killed him.

I agree with that - although I would add that of course God gives us the "gift" of immortality once we believe in the saving grace of his Son.

I would agree, though we must note that even such immortality is only sustained in God and through him. We can't say that the immortality given to us is self-sustaining, for then hypothetically, if at some point God doesn't want us to exist, there would be nothing he'd be able to do about it since we'd be like God, self sustaining beings.

God is not immortal, He is eternal and that is an important distinction.
Correctly speaking, an immortal being is one that can't die by natural causes BUT can be killed.
Although the bible never addresses it directly, it may be that Angels are immortal in that sense.
God of course can't be killed or destroyed because He is Eternal.