Evidence for God from Science

dellsOfBittersweet wrote:

Dallas wrote:Okay, to start I do not classify myself as a baptist. I clarify myself as a believer of Jesus Christ. Now that i'm done with that lol. What are your guys's denominations? I'm baptist.

Okay now to my question a lot has happened to the Catholic church. But the major one I have seen is their salvation plans have completely took a turn for the worse. From what people say at the Church I go to. Why is it they switched their salvation plans from Being saved by Grace and not by works to completely the opposite? I know they have a different Bible than protestant churches, but it still has the correct way to get saved in it. So can somebody clarify this for me please?

Sincerely,


Dallas.

Greetings from Popeland. As a lifelong Catholic let me take a crack at this.

The Catholic Church has held the same position in regards to salvation throughout her entire 2000 year history. Our position is that we are saved by grace. Faith can not save us, works can not save us, and in fact, anything else that originates from us and not God is radically insufficient for our salvation. God, by dying on the cross, sent an invitation to us to participate in his divine life, and as beings with free will, we can either accept or reject. To accept warrants a response, and that response takes the form of both faith and works. We are not trying to work our way into heaven, since we can't, but we are trying to respond to God's free gift of grace by following his commands.

1. If the response required Faith AND personal 'meritorious' works to be saved...then it isnt a FREE undeserved gift from God. Its thus called 'Greasy-grace' . When someone gives you a FREE birthday gift, you dont says to the Giver : "Thanks for the free gift...now tell me what are some things i can do to make me worthy of it' or 'What can i do to repay you for it' . The biblical way is not the R.C.C. way because the biblical way is Gods totally free gift for us all achieved by Christ alone plus nothing else added.

2. Check out # 1,2,8,and 15 in this following online book and youll see that Catholic Doctrine involves a plethera of ways to achieve graces for Ones eventual salvation http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160cont.asp . So, obedient Catholics are NOT solely trusting in the finished sufficient work of Christ on Calvary (alone) which is Gods free gift . This may have been the RCC's stand for many many centuries, but, its NOT the Gospel of Christ needed for eternal salvation according to Paul in Galatians 1: 1-10 and Ephesians 2:8-10 and Romans 10:8-14 .

Who are you going to trust ? : The finished work of Christ on Calvary, or, what Church Fathers incorrectly taught and still do today in addition to Pope-ism ?

I go to every denomination I can. I like to see and hear how different people believe and practice. I am not one that bashes another for "boasting" sake. The "holier than thou" thing is complete trash (as I see it) I also do not like the "believe the way I do or your going to hell because you are wrong" last I checked the only human to ever get it right was Christ Jesus. I prefer the churches that have deathcore genre worship songs, I am a guitar player and believer.

1stjohn0666 wrote:I go to every denomination I can. I like to see and hear how different people believe and practice. I am not one that bashes another for "boasting" sake. The "holier than thou" thing is complete trash (as I see it) I also do not like the "believe the way I do or your going to hell because you are wrong" last I checked the only human to ever get it right was Christ Jesus. I prefer the churches that have deathcore genre worship songs, I am a guitar player and believer.

Just so long as the Church FULLY endorses the Bible and teaches from it instead of madeup human traditions . Genuine praise and worship to God is vitally important ; im not familair with 'deathcore' music ...why do they call it that and why is it so attractive to you ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr0slooIE1k
The above link is Christian, but with the "deathcore" sound.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tvJC694Le0
The above is "heavy metal"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DexbRIGRqs
The above is a combo of metal and rap..also Christian
Maybe we should start a "what are some of you FAV worship songs" thread

I go to every denomination I can. I like to see and hear how different people believe and practice. I am not one that bashes another for "boasting" sake. The "holier than thou" thing is complete trash (as I see it) I also do not like the "believe the way I do or your going to hell because you are wrong" last I checked the only human to ever get it right was Christ Jesus. I prefer the churches that have deathcore genre worship songs, I am a guitar player and believer

Yes, I'm sure Jesus prefers the deathcore genre as well.
Oh, and it sounds like you see yourself as better than those "holier than thou" types. Good for you.

1stjohn0666 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr0slooIE1k
The above link is Christian, but with the "deathcore" sound.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tvJC694Le0
The above is "heavy metal"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DexbRIGRqs
The above is a combo of metal and rap..also Christian
Maybe we should start a "what are some of you FAV worship songs" thread

I understand that music is a personal subjective thing as far as what we enjoy..but...in the examples you gave you cant understand the words unless they are shown, the guys voice sounds like hes recovering from very bad larengitis , and why is he growling in a very hostile way as if hes really ticked off ? Isnt this pretty much the same kind of music, melody, beat, etc... where concert goers gather in a large circle then without notice smash into each others Body trying to inflict physical pain requiring a first aid kit and bandaids when they get home ? Theres more pleasant sounds by way of music that you can listen to and praise God with...take for instance this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9F4hP2AZAw . Do you see the difference ?

I do not belong to any denomination. I am lonely traveller. Still learner.

1over137 wrote:I do not belong to any denomination. I am lonely traveller. Still learner.

I do hope you attend a local church regularly though, since its Gods desire for you to worship in a coporate atmosphere of fellow Believers, to grow in your faith and knowledge of God with others, to serve others, for you to get ministered to , and to have a Christian Family to enjoy as you all head for the glorious day of being reunited in Heaven.

Completely better than "those holier than thou folks"

CallMeDave » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:10 am

1over137 wrote:
I do not belong to any denomination. I am lonely traveller. Still learner.


I do hope you attend a local church regularly though, since its Gods desire for you to worship in a coporate atmosphere of fellow Believers, to grow in your faith and knowledge of God with others, to serve others, for you to get ministered to , and to have a Christian Family to enjoy as you all head for the glorious day of being reunited in Heaven.

Frankly, I have been disappointed by the church I used to attend, I changed 3 churches (A Methodist and two Pentecostals, never been to a catholic though, byblos! any recommendations ) in the last 10 years but I do not go to church anymore. While I completely agree that we should have fellowship, I sincerely do not think that God desires a corporate worship per se from believers. I however think that people who are not being ministered too and are Christians, should be reached as they are a part of the body of Christ too.

neo-x wrote:

CallMeDave » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:10 am

1over137 wrote:
I do not belong to any denomination. I am lonely traveller. Still learner.


I do hope you attend a local church regularly though, since its Gods desire for you to worship in a coporate atmosphere of fellow Believers, to grow in your faith and knowledge of God with others, to serve others, for you to get ministered to , and to have a Christian Family to enjoy as you all head for the glorious day of being reunited in Heaven.

Frankly, I have been disappointed by the church I used to attend, I changed 3 churches (A Methodist and two Pentecostals, never been to a catholic though, byblos! any recommendations ) in the last 10 years but I do not go to church anymore. While I completely agree that we should have fellowship, I sincerely do not think that God desires a corporate worship per se from believers. I however think that people who are not being ministered too and are Christians, should be reached as they are a part of the body of Christ too.

Neo, you're not alone here. I'm done with trying to play the "church" game.

neo-x wrote:

CallMeDave » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:10 am

1over137 wrote:
I do not belong to any denomination. I am lonely traveller. Still learner.


I do hope you attend a local church regularly though, since its Gods desire for you to worship in a coporate atmosphere of fellow Believers, to grow in your faith and knowledge of God with others, to serve others, for you to get ministered to , and to have a Christian Family to enjoy as you all head for the glorious day of being reunited in Heaven.

Frankly, I have been disappointed by the church I used to attend, I changed 3 churches (A Methodist and two Pentecostals, never been to a catholic though, byblos! any recommendations ) in the last 10 years but I do not go to church anymore. While I completely agree that we should have fellowship, I sincerely do not think that God desires a corporate worship per se from believers. I however think that people who are not being ministered too and are Christians, should be reached as they are a part of the body of Christ too.

Im afraid your very wrong because God tells us NOT to forsake the gathering of ourselves in his Word. He doesnt believe in Lone Ranger Christians . Youre missing a very important part of being a Christian if you dont get into a Body of Believers . Maybe you need to weigh up WHY youve been disappointed with the last 3 churches ; the 3 key points to look for are : Genuine Praise and Worship to God and heartfelt, The preaching of Gods Word including The Gospel Message and Bible Studies for further growth in Ones Walk, and for you to use your spritual gifts , talents, and abilities to serve others and God within the Body. Everything else is secondary.

CallMeDave wrote:

neo-x wrote:

CallMeDave » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:10 am

1over137 wrote:
I do not belong to any denomination. I am lonely traveller. Still learner.


I do hope you attend a local church regularly though, since its Gods desire for you to worship in a coporate atmosphere of fellow Believers, to grow in your faith and knowledge of God with others, to serve others, for you to get ministered to , and to have a Christian Family to enjoy as you all head for the glorious day of being reunited in Heaven.

Frankly, I have been disappointed by the church I used to attend, I changed 3 churches (A Methodist and two Pentecostals, never been to a catholic though, byblos! any recommendations ) in the last 10 years but I do not go to church anymore. While I completely agree that we should have fellowship, I sincerely do not think that God desires a corporate worship per se from believers. I however think that people who are not being ministered too and are Christians, should be reached as they are a part of the body of Christ too.

Im afraid your very wrong because God tells us NOT to forsake the gathering of ourselves in his Word. He doesnt believe in Lone Ranger Christians . Youre missing a very important part of being a Christian if you dont get into a Body of Believers . Maybe you need to weigh up WHY youve been disappointed with the last 3 churches ; the 3 key points to look for are : Genuine Praise and Worship to God and heartfelt, The preaching of Gods Word including The Gospel Message and Bible Studies for further growth in Ones Walk, and for you to use your spritual gifts , talents, and abilities to serve others and God within the Body. Everything else is secondary.

Dave, what about when the churches one attends have these 3 key points: Praise and worship, that draws attention to the performers, and not God. The preaching of God's word, to be used for manipulation, and control over people. And, Peddling the word of God for profit.

Every church that I have attended in recent history, has had one or all of those to a large degree. And, until, and if, God leads me to another Church, I'm done playing the "church" game.

RickD wrote:

CallMeDave wrote:

neo-x wrote:

CallMeDave » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:10 am

1over137 wrote:
I do not belong to any denomination. I am lonely traveller. Still learner.


I do hope you attend a local church regularly though, since its Gods desire for you to worship in a coporate atmosphere of fellow Believers, to grow in your faith and knowledge of God with others, to serve others, for you to get ministered to , and to have a Christian Family to enjoy as you all head for the glorious day of being reunited in Heaven.

Frankly, I have been disappointed by the church I used to attend, I changed 3 churches (A Methodist and two Pentecostals, never been to a catholic though, byblos! any recommendations ) in the last 10 years but I do not go to church anymore. While I completely agree that we should have fellowship, I sincerely do not think that God desires a corporate worship per se from believers. I however think that people who are not being ministered too and are Christians, should be reached as they are a part of the body of Christ too.

Im afraid your very wrong because God tells us NOT to forsake the gathering of ourselves in his Word. He doesnt believe in Lone Ranger Christians . Youre missing a very important part of being a Christian if you dont get into a Body of Believers . Maybe you need to weigh up WHY youve been disappointed with the last 3 churches ; the 3 key points to look for are : Genuine Praise and Worship to God and heartfelt, The preaching of Gods Word including The Gospel Message and Bible Studies for further growth in Ones Walk, and for you to use your spritual gifts , talents, and abilities to serve others and God within the Body. Everything else is secondary.

Dave, what about when the churches one attends have these 3 key points: Praise and worship, that draws attention to the performers, and not God. The preaching of God's word, to be used for manipulation, and control over people. And, Peddling the word of God for profit.

Every church that I have attended in recent history, has had one or all of those to a large degree. And, until, and if, God leads me to another Church, I'm done playing the "church" game.

RIck, Then obviously that isnt genuine worship to God if the attention is being focused on the Performers . Manipulation and peddling for profit are an obvious bad fruit too. Theres plenty of good, sound, healthy Churches out there that are the real McCoy --- if you go to www.equip.org (which is the Christian Research Institute) , they offer the service of giving you names of CHurches in your locale that ARE healthy and well balanced. Theres no perfect church but theres many that are genuine and uphold biblical principles . Dont let apathy and disappointment stand in the way of doing what GOD has called you to do by way of getting into a Church. Pursue , ask for Gods leading, and start with www.equip.org for thier unbiased recommendation.

Im afraid your very wrong because God tells us NOT to forsake the gathering of ourselves in his Word. He doesnt believe in Lone Ranger Christians . Youre missing a very important part of being a Christian if you dont get into a Body of Believers . Maybe you need to weigh up WHY youve been disappointed with the last 3 churches ; the 3 key points to look for are : Genuine Praise and Worship to God and heartfelt, The preaching of Gods Word including The Gospel Message and Bible Studies for further growth in Ones Walk, and for you to use your spritual gifts , talents, and abilities to serve others and God within the Body. Everything else is secondary.

I appreciate your concern dave. I am not saying there is not a single good church out there, just saying that I have found the ones I went to as not genuine or going into the the denomination battle and getting derailing from scripture. I just do not know, its not just spirituality that matters but how the word is being preached. Fro example the assemblies of God in Pakistan assert that if you are not speaking tongues, not even as a sign, then you are not saved and you do not have the holy spirit. That is un-biblical. And I objected to this as I was the member of the church management, the result was that after a couple of months of my objections and demanding explanations and citing scripture, they told me to get out.

One church I attended was where the pastor got always personal during the sermon, he would even insult people from the stage by name for doing something wrong, I agree that a pastor should point out sin but I also believe that doesn't have to go ballistic to do that. Their teaching was as close to okay as I think I understand the Bible but I found no Christian love, all I found was discipline and hypocrisy.

One church I saw was where the two head pastors got into a fight over leadership and eventually went to court, one tried to even assassinate the other, the police got involved, the church was locked down for a year.

Another church I was a member of, was arranging Marilyn Hickey's crusade in Pakistan and they did fraud of Rs. 300,000 in the final settlement, o yes I know because the youth pastor was also the accountant and he left the church when they asked him to make fake accounts. So when I saw that I left the church too.

I could go on and on, but in the church all I ever got taught was, when to close your eyes, when and how to read the Bible, when to clap, when to speak loud when to stand and when to sit. And the places where I did find biblical teaching were too far busy in teaching that they forgot to actually apply that teaching to the church...so what more can I say?