Evidence for God from Science

Murray wrote:

manicsloth wrote:

Swimmy wrote:

obviously the shroud is a fake

Evidence?

Clearly he had none because he did the usual post-and-run. His comment didn't even make sense.

StMonicaGuideMe wrote:

Murray wrote:

manicsloth wrote:

Swimmy wrote:

obviously the shroud is a fake

Evidence?

Clearly he had none because he did the usual post-and-run. His comment didn't even make sense.

The shroud cannot be explained scientifically, just saying "it's fake" with 0 evidence is not proof. Likewise saying "it's real" without posting anything more is kind of the same way.

It challenges his train of thought, and his god (science) cannot explain it. it's kind of like the paradox effect with robots, give it a answer it cannot answer and it explodes or in this case just ignores.

Hmmm. That is an excellent way of describing how they react. It's true -- I've even seen smoke come out of ears before

Jlay, that was an excellent reply. I've been busy with other things lately, and it was nice to come back and see such a good response. I want to learn this stuff! It's just hard to learn rather than just read.

God bless this forum : ]

Not to put a dapper on the situation but the Shroud of Turin is most likely fake. They carbon twice both came out to around the 1470's. I'd ike to believe it's the Lord's burial cloth but the evidence is stacked against it. I personally believe it was made by Da Vinci using an early form of photography. Just my 2 cents...

La Volpe wrote:Not to put a dapper on the situation but the Shroud of Turin is most likely fake. They carbon twice both came out to around the 1470's. I'd ike to believe it's the Lord's burial cloth but the evidence is stacked against it. I personally believe it was made by Da Vinci using an early form of photography. Just my 2 cents...

The outside framing of the shroud (added 15th century) was what they carbon dated since the church wouldn't let them take a piece near the face of jesus.

Murray wrote:

La Volpe wrote:Not to put a dapper on the situation but the Shroud of Turin is most likely fake. They carbon twice both came out to around the 1470's. I'd ike to believe it's the Lord's burial cloth but the evidence is stacked against it. I personally believe it was made by Da Vinci using an early form of photography. Just my 2 cents...

The outside framing of the shroud (added 15th century) was what they carbon dated since the church wouldn't let them take a piece near the face of jesus.

Not only that but in a video I saw manuscripst of the shroud for the past few hundred years and there were many that SHOWED the shroud being grasped in that exact corner that was dated. I suspect carbon contamination from sweat(hand), oil(hand), and dust(storage) that would make it look younger.

La Volpe wrote:Not to put a dapper on the situation but the Shroud of Turin is most likely fake. They carbon twice both came out to around the 1470's. I'd ike to believe it's the Lord's burial cloth but the evidence is stacked against it. I personally believe it was made by Da Vinci using an early form of photography. Just my 2 cents...

This post is completely wrong even of the dating of the now invalidated c-14 tests. Those tests came out with an age of between 1260-1390 . The davinci conspiracy theory is rediculous because even the invalidated c14 test dates are before davinci's time. The Hungarian pray codex alone destroys both the davinci and the c-14 tests because in the codex is an unmistakable picture of the shroud complete with the 3 poker holes and the rare triple herringbone weave of the shroud which wasn't known in the time of davinci or the dates put forth by the c-14 tests.

The c-14 tests were invalidated by Ray Rogers who found that the samples taken for the c-14 tests were completely different than the part of the shroud which had the image. Ray Rogers is an expert chemist who was from the internationally known los Alamos laboratory and he was an agnostic, who stated on video that he didn't believe in miracles, but the finding he made that completely shook him up about the c-14 tests started to convince him that the shroud was the burial cloth that wrapped around our lord. Remember folks that this is coming from an agnostic who not only didn't believe in miracles but went into this totally believing that the shroud was a fake.

Rogers also determined from the negative vanillin tests that the shroud was most likely from between 1300 to 3000 years old which fits in reasonable with it coming from the time of Christ. It matches very well with the vanillin tests of the dead sea scrolls which also came back negative for the vanillin tests.

Let's turn our attention to the sudarium of Oviedo. Forensic experts who have studied both it and the shroud have determined that they both wrapped around the Lords body at extremely close intervals (within an hour or so), and have many points of congruence from the blood stains. They have also
found from both clothes that the nose length matches perfectly at about 8 centimeters which is something no shroud forger could have known to make on both clothes, no one could have done this.

Now if both clothes have been determined by forensic experts to have been on the same body at close intervals then the shroud of Turin is at least as old as the sudarium, and the sudarium's history is indisputable, meaning no one denies it's history, and the history of the shroud goes back to at least the late 500's ad if not all the way back to Christ's time.
I have been studying the shroud obsessively for 2 years now and what I have given you is just the type of the iceberg, and if you guys study all of the evidence for the shroud there is only one being that could have created that image and that is the resurrected Christ. I'm on my iPod so I'll try to break up my posts into different parts.

If you want to see how fast atheists abandon science and logic just talk about the shroud all the wacky conspiracy theories come of from under the woodworks, it exposes their true bias. It's not that they don't have evidence for God, it's just that they want so badly that he doesn't exist, it's basically an emotional tirade instead of an intellectual objection .
Part 2 coming up

One of the observations on the shroud that I always held to be unique is the fact that the image of the man on the shroud has wound marks in his wrists. If it was created in the Middle Ages, the creator of it must have known something about the Roman method of crucifixion that no other artist from that era knew because if you compare the shroud to every other depiction of Jesus' crucifixion in art, all the others from that era are painted showing Christ nailed through the palm of his hands. And from tests on cadavers in the past, we know that a nail through the palm cannot hold the weight of a body, even if the arms are fastened to a wooden beam with rope. The gravity of the body pulling on the hand would cause the nail to rip through the hand.

The Romans executed thousands by crucifixion. I think they would know how to fasten a human arm to a piece of wood so that it would not tear through the hand and the best method for that is being nailed through the wrist. And they probably learned that method through lots of practice. That should not be overlooked because it is so obvious. Plus, we know that our Lord was taken down from the cross, He did not fall off the cross so Christ would have had to have been fastened in place very securely considering he was on the cross for six hours.

John 20:20 (KJV) And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.

The Greek word for hand in this passage from Strong's concordance is:

5495
ceir
pronounced khire
perhaps from the base of ceimwn - cheimon 5494 in the sense of its congener the base of casma - chasma 5490 (through the idea of hollowness for grasping); the hand (literally or figuratively (power); especially (by Hebraism) a means or instrument):--hand.

I do not believe that there is an ancient Greek word for "wrist" but it seems to imply that the "hand" meant not just the hand itself, but also and including the area of the arm above the hand which we call the wrist.

Part 3

Katabole, you are correct, the ancient greeks and hebrews had no seperate word for hand and wrist, good find.
Remember the fact that the shroud and sudarium has been determined to have been on the same bodies at close time intervals pushes the shroud all way back to at least the 500's and not the middle ages.

Here are some of the findings of the sturp team published in 1981
http://shroud2000.com/FastFacts.html

2004: Thermal Chemist, Dr. Raymond Rogers, retired Fellow with the Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory proves using samples from the area cut for carbon 14 dating and samples from the main body of the Shroud that the sample cut in 1988 for C-14 dating was in fact a medieval reweave confirming Marino and Benford's hypothesis presented in 2000. Rogers also determined the evidence of a madder root dye used to blend in the color of newer threads with the more yellowed threads of the original Shroud. He also found cotton in the C-14 sample but not from the main body of the Shroud indicating both cotton and flax were used in the repair. Lastly and most importantly, he found that 37% of the vanillin remained intact in the lignon from the C-14 fibers whereas the vanillin content from the main body of the Shroud had decayed to 0%, similar to the Dead Sea Scrolls. Not only does this new evidence show that the carbon dating tests were severely flawed by dating an erroneous sample, but that the evidence also shows the main body of the Shroud is much older as indicated by the lack of vanillin. This critical research is precisely the kind of micro-chemical analysis the carbon dating labs were supposed to do in 1988, prior to taking the sample according to the original protocol, but failed to follow.

The carbon dating tests of 1988 have been thoroughly and completely invalidated by good science rather than the shoddy and arrogant effort demonstrated by the carbon labs in 1988. The cloud has been lifted.

The blood is, in fact, real blood.” -Dr. John Heller Confirmed by presence of heme, porphyrins,bile pigments and serum albumin. Confirmed also by spectrographic analysis.
“The blood marks seen on the shroud are consistent with a contact transfer to the cloth of blood clot exudates that would have resulted from major wounds inflicted on a man who died in the position of crucifixion.” -Dr. Al Alder -Dr. Gil Lavoie
“The stains have a central hollowness which probably results from the physical separation of red blood cells from serum.” -Dr. Robert Bucklin
“The remarkably fine detailing of the scourge marks revealed by ultraviolet fluorescence would be impossible to obtain by any other means than direct contact between a body and the linen.” -Dr. Sam Pellicori

The Wounds are consistent with the Gospel account of Christ’s ordeal:
Crown of thorns
Bruising of face
Shoulder abrasions
Knee abrasions
Scourge marks
Nail wounds in wrist & feet
Wound in side
Legs not broken


Team Scientists Represented:

Los Alamos National Laboratory
New England Institute of Medicine
Sandia Laboratories
U.S. Air Force Academy
Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Santa Barbara Research Institute
Nuclear Technologies Corp.
Colorado State University

Remember folks, the sturp was comprised of the top experts in their fields from all of these places.


They also found microscopic dirt particles on the soles of the feet which was determined to be Travertine Aragonite limestone particles indigenous to caves surrounding Jerusalem. hmmm, another breadcrumb


Lets talk about the pollen samples found on the shroud and one in particular in part 4 among other things

part 4

One of the pollens found on both the shroud and the sudarium of oviedo come from the thorny bush called Gundelia tournefortii that is only found in the area of the holy land



If I pasted this image correctly you can see the size of those thorns, they were hard and very sharp, I couldnt imagine the pain if someone slapped a cap of these on my head:(


has indicated that one of these pollen matches is Gundelia tournefortii - a thorn/thistle bush that is indigenous to the Holy Land. Dr. Avinoam Danin (botanist and expert on the flora of the Holy Land who teaches at Hebrew University in Jerusalem) reports that Gundelia tournefortii serves as a "geographic and calendar indicator" that the origin or provenance of the cloths is the Holy Land.



and from the evidence of the flower images found on the shroud and the pollen samples found from Max Frei's study a trail starts to emerge here:


//shroud2000.com/ArticlesPapers/Article-PollenEvidence.html



Evidence from Pollen and Flower Images

The study of pollen removed from the shroud is proving to be one of the most fascinating avenues of research and lends considerable weight to the possibility of the Shroud’s authenticity. Max Frei, a Swiss criminologist began this investigation in 1973 by removing pollen from the Shroud using sticky tape. The pollens were then transferred to glass plates for microscopic examination. Dr. Frei’s initial findings surprisingly correlated with Ian Wilson’s theory of the Shroud’s historical trail originating in Jerusalem in the First century and soon after, travelling to Edessa, Turkey, then to Constantinople in 944 and finally to France following the Fourth Crusade in 1204. It only gets to Turin, Italy in 1578.

Some have criticized Frei’s work as wishful thinking and lacking scientific rigor. Now enter two Israeli Professors, Dr. Avinoam Danin, a botanist with the Hebrew University of Jersalem who has published nine books on the flora of the Middle East. And Dr.Uri Baruch, a palynologist (a branch of science dealing with pollen and spores), and an authority on Israeli antiquities.

They were introduced to the Shroud by Dr. Alan and Mary Whanger who originally discovered the evidence of flower images on the Shroud. The Whangers also now possess all the pollen collected by Max Frei. Baruch examined the pollen from these samples whereas Danin examined the flower images. Both are now convinced of the Shroud’s origination in Israel.

The following is the text of a news article regarding their research:

“Floral Images on Shroud of Turin Intrigue Botanist"

Prof. Avinoam Danin (Botanist, Hebrew University of Jerusalem) - "Danin...has confirmed that of the hundreds of floral patterns on the sheet [i.e. Shroud], 28 are of flower species that still grown in Israel, 70 percent of them in a 10-square kilometer area between Jerusalem and Jericho. At least one of them, Zygophyllum (Dumosum), a kind of desert tumbleweed (actually a shrub), grows only in Israel and parts of neighboring Jordan and Sinai, as it did 2,000 years ago in the time of Jesus....Most of the floral images were clustered around the head of a bearded man who appeared to have been whipped and crowned with thorns and crucified. The positioning would have been consistent with the Jewish burial practice then of banking fresh flowers around the head of the deceased. Also consistent, Danin said, was the fact that a majority of the identified species were also used medicinally as a kind of preservative of the body....Danin said that the preponderance of botanical evidence – the presence of the exclusive Zygophyllum, along with the so many other species indigenous to the Holy Land, plus forensic evidence that the flowers were picked in the spring, at the time of the Passover and Crucifixion - convinces him that the shroud dates from the first century AD. (Danin says the reporter misquoted him as to any indication of a date and that what the evidence points to is that the Shroud must have originated in Jerusalem. The pollen does not indicate when, except that it was in the spring.)

"Some 96 percent of the 28 flower species identified on the shroud grow between Jerusalem and the Qumran Caves. Add the southern Dead Sea area to the equation and 100 percent of the species can be found, said Danin."

"I can't say for certain that it was Jesus’ shroud. But this evidence backs up the possibility that it is genuine, and there is no doubt that it comes from the Land of Israel."

The significance of both the pollen and flower images is profound. The evidence of the pollen grains of Gundelia Tournefortii causes Danin to believe that “They became part of the Shroud at one event-when in Jerusalem”. In fact, they found that 40 % of the total number of pollen found on the Shroud is from this one type of plant. The pollen content is so high it can only mean that G. Tournefortii must have been physically laid down on the Shroud. Dr. Danin has also found images of four leaves of the plant Zygophylum Dumosum which also indicates that the plant must have been physically laid on the Shroud. And it’s only found in Israel! The notion that the Shroud originated in Israel and was used in an actual burial ceremony now has strong new evidence.

That last paragraph left me breathless, "The pollen content is so high it can only mean that G. Tournefortii must have been physically laid down on the Shroud."

Part 5 blood stains

Part 5

There is no distortion of the image on the shroud.
What is also noticed is that the muscles of the man on the shroud are not pressed against the bottom of the tomb as dame isabel paczek has correctly noted in the excerpt the fabric of time. To her and a few others this means that the body of Jesus had to have been hovering in the middle between the inside top portion of the shroud and the inner bottom portion of the shroud. also Look at the blood stains, they appear unsmeared.

How could someone have taken Jesus's body off that tomb without smearing it? How could Jesus himself have gotten off teh shroud without smearing the blood ? To me that shows some kind of dematerialization taking place as Jesus Passed right through the cloth. I believe (but dont quote me on this as I lost most of my bookmarks when my pc crashed a few months back),but I believe that John Jackson, the scientist at Nasa was in favor of this theory. He was also one of the scientists from the sturp team.

Ironically the only person that believed that the blood on the shroud was paint was Walter Mccrone, an atheist humanist, and while the other scientists on the sturp team using much more advanced equipment found no blood, he said he did. When He submitted his work for peer review his research was being shot down big time from the peer review board and he got so angry that he withdrew his work from the peer review board lol, and published it in a non peer review magazine of which he was both the owner and editor of the magazine. See what I mean when I said if you want to see atheists go into an unscientific and emotional frenzy just mention the shroud of turin to them hehe.









http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbl4EmoH_jg

The shroud of Turin also exhibits xray qualities on it, especially on the hands parts of the skull and moth and parts of the leg. This stuff is just too technologically advanced for any forger to have created. We cant even recreate the image with all of its unique aspects today with all of our scientific knowledge we possess. You can even see the teeth and gum on the segundo pia pictures.



http://shroud2000.com/SU-CollegeMedicine.html

Dr. Gus Accetta is a medical doctor and has used the science of modern nuclear medicine to determine if the Shroud image could have been the result of emitted radiation as some have postulated. This paper documents how medically ingested radiation produces an image similar to the Shroud in many ways. Takes a few minutes to load, be patient its worth it.
http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/accett2.pdf


Doctor Accetta even swallowed poisonous radiation to make a point about the shroud, that if some of the radiation that helped from the image of the shroud happened, that they must have come from within the body of Jesus, in fact that is how xrays are done at teh dentist office when taking xrays of the inner mouth and teeth. Accetta has guts to take this kind of a chance.

Now folks tell me who from the middle ages could have done all of this? No one could have.

A great starter book to read is "the resurrection of the shroud" by lawyer Mark Antonacci

Antonacci was a happy go lucky agnostic who got into arguments about religion with his christian girl friend about christianity. One day he got so infuriated by her that he was determined to prove to her that Christianity was a fable, a myth. He decided that he would start with the shroud of turin. 20 years of research later, instead of proving teh shroud was a fake he ended up converting to Christianity himself and wrote "the resurrection of the shroud".

A good starter DVD to get is "the fabric of time" by grissley adams productions and it goes into some of the latest findings on the shroud and even has a good addition set on the sudarium of Oviedo.

The shroud of turin is made for Christian and people of all religions to study, to even come to Christ. Its also perfect for seekers and agnostic but like I said before its no good to stubborn dogmatic atheists whose objection to God is more of an emotional tirade then an intellectual objection.

Ok guys enough for now, I have OCD so I cant stay too long on a subject hehe

StMonicaGuideMe wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religio ... -robe.html

The scientists set out to "identify the physical and chemical processes capable of generating a colour similar to that of the image on the Shroud." They concluded that the exact shade, texture and depth of the imprints on the cloth could only be produced with the aid of ultraviolet lasers – technology that was clearly not available in medieval times.

The scientists used extremely brief pulses of ultraviolet light to replicate the kind of marks found on the burial cloth.

They concluded that the iconic image of the bearded man must therefore have been created by "some form of electromagnetic energy (such as a flash of light at short wavelength)." Although they stopped short of offering a non-scientific explanation for the phenomenon, their findings will be embraced by those who believe that the marks on the shroud were miraculously created at the moment of Christ's Resurrection.... "But as scientists, we were concerned only with verifiable scientific processes. We hope our results can open up a philosophical and theological debate but we will leave the conclusions to the experts, and ultimately to the conscience of individuals."

Remember StMonica that these is ateam of scientists from the ENEA group in Italy. What they also found out was the amount of energy to produce the image with just a few of the unique aspects found in the shroud image. Here is that part of the report.

http://protectthepope.com/?p=4368

‘However,Enea scientists warn,“it should be noted that the total power of VUV radiations required to instantly color the surface of linen that corresponds to a human of average height,body surface area equal to = 2000 MW/cm2 17000 cm2 = 34 thousand billion watts makes it impractical today to reproduce the entire Shroud image using a single laser excimer,since this power cannot be produced by any VUV light source built to date (the most powerful available on the market come to several billion watts )”.

However the Shroud image “has some features that we are not yet able to reproduce – they admit –for example,the gradient of the image caused by a different concentration of yellow colored fibrils that alternate with unstained fibrils”. And they warn:“We are not at the conclusion,we are composing pieces of a fascinating and complex scientific puzzle”.


Now im pretty sure that no one in Jesus's time had that kind of technology in their possession. To me it can only point to one event and thats the power and majesty of the Resurrection.