Evidence for God from Science

One of the reasons Paul says it is good not to marry is because when one marries they are obligated to that family. And rightfully so. The requirements of discipleship are not the requirements of salvation. Oswald Chambers said, "There is nothing easier than getting saved, because it is solely God’s sovereign work— “Look to Me, and be saved . . .” (Isaiah 45:22). Our Lord never requires the same conditions for discipleship that he requires for salvation. We are condemned to salvation through the Cross of Christ. But discipleship has an option with it-”If anyone . . .” (Luke 14:26).

People confuse the two, and then often prooftext, just like mandelduke did, to prove their point. Judge not by a standard unless you yourself are willing to be judged by it. The Christian denies Christ EVERY time they sin. Not just when having a gun pointed at a loved one.

This is the same as saying salvation is dependent on one picking up one's cross and following Christ. I am growing so sick of people trampling under foot the grace of God to impost their religious thoughts that they themselves can not live up to.

Excellent points jlay.
This was also an issue with the Donasts (SP?) in Augustine's time.
If I recall, some Christians ( many of htem priests) had "denied" Christ and even give over books to be burned during the persecution ( I forget which emperor it was, whether before or after Constantine...) and after the persecution some thought that they ( especially the priests) should not be allowed back in and especially the priests shoudl not b e able to give the sacraments.
Augustine's famous "Hospital for sinners not museum for saints" analogy for the church came from this.
Basically one group wanted a "PURE" body church and Augustine reminded them that there is NO SUCH thing and that we are all sinners and under God's Grace through Christ.

jlay wrote:One of the reasons Paul says it is good not to marry is because when one marries they are obligated to that family. And rightfully so. The requirements of discipleship are not the requirements of salvation. Oswald Chambers said, "There is nothing easier than getting saved, because it is solely God’s sovereign work— “Look to Me, and be saved . . .” (Isaiah 45:22). Our Lord never requires the same conditions for discipleship that he requires for salvation. We are condemned to salvation through the Cross of Christ. But discipleship has an option with it-”If anyone . . .” (Luke 14:26).

People confuse the two, and then often prooftext, just like mandelduke did, to prove their point. Judge not by a standard unless you yourself are willing to be judged by it. The Christian denies Christ EVERY time they sin. Not just when having a gun pointed at a loved one.

This is the same as saying salvation is dependent on one picking up one's cross and following Christ. I am growing so sick of people trampling under foot the grace of God to impost their religious thoughts that they themselves can not live up to.

Jlay’ let me tell you a little bit about myself. I don’t know of any one that GOD has showed more grace to then me. I was in Green River Boys Camp when I was 14 years old, I turned 21 in prison. I was in organized crime at the age of 17 years old, and had broken all Ten Commandments by the time I was 18years old. And at the age of 18teen, I said to GOD that I had rather burn in hell then bow down to a Jew meaning Jesus. I did all of this knowing there was a GOD and Jesus was my savior. When I was 12 years old in a coma I saw an Angel at my bedside. Even though I had never gone to church, I hungered for the word of GOD. The Holy Spirit talked to me, I was supposed to be a preacher. But I rejected God for 24 years. I am not saying if you deny Jesus to save your life you will go to hell. I’m saying denying Jesus is not silly words. I’m saying that anybody that would deny Jesus their Lord and Savior, to save this sinful corrupt body may need to do a faith check.

I’m saying that anybody that would deny Jesus their Lord and Savior, to save this sinful corrupt body may need to do a faith check.

Peter did just that.
And what did Jesus do?
As Peter denied him 3 times, so Jesus:

The Love Motivation

15So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Tend My lambs.” 16He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.” 17He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.” Jesus said to him, “Tend My sheep.

Luke 22; 31:34
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the **** shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Luke 22; 58:62
58 And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou art also of them. And Peter said, Man, I am not.

59 And about the space of one hour after another confidently affirmed, saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a Galilaea

60 And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the **** crew.

61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the **** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice
62 And Peter went out, and wept bitterly. As in repenting!

Isaiah 29:13
And the Lord said: “Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men,

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
James 1:26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.
Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Revelation 3:15-16
“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

1 John 1:8-10
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Matthew 5:11
“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.


2 Timothy 3:12
Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,

Don't counter text with text, what you are doing is trying to divide the Word of God.
I would suggest you NOT do that.

There was a HUGE denial of Christ in the NT, THE huge denial, and that was Peter.
And what happened?

Never think that God and Christ do NOT knows us better than WE KNOW ourselves.

Peter KNEW who Jesus was, he was THERE, He SAW and felt everything, He was present at the greatest of miracles and at the transfiguration, God spoke to Peter directly.
And Peter still faltered ( there is a HUGE lesson there).

Are you or any of us MORE than Peter?

I would like to make a point as this can be a really deep subject and so its hard to get the whole scope of it into perception/perspective. For example what people keep saying...christians seem to have the idea that "they have to suffer" in the most brutal and legalitsic fashion when my point is yes we have to suffer as its predicted and natural for anyone who opposes evil to suffer, BUT why suffer in the way that is the subject of this discussion ie: torture, death etc? Why "choose" this when it can be simply avoided if it were not our egos and pride telling us we are weak if we dont? when in reality we would ALL deny him verbally and do whatever someone said if tortured long enough.
The point is that if captors such as muslims are stupid enough to think words mean something and let you go if you say them....why not take advantage of these idiots and live to continue being a good husband or father or friend and thus be able to continue doing good as opposed to "willfully" commiting suicide?
Plus where in the bible anywhere does it say we are saved by believing upon the lord jesus, AND "oh yea but dont pretend to deny him to save a persons life or you goto hell" There is nowhere that addresses this scenario except in the 2nd book of kings with Jehu which seems very much to support it...but again my main point is that almost all of christianity seem to be ADDING to the conditions of salvation by saying if we don't interpret the "VERY open to interpretation" scriptures so often quoted (dont deny me before men etc...peter scenario etc) as meaning we cant even pretend to deny him, then tough luck buddy, you are hell bound...what happened to "God looketh upon the heart"? Most of you are making it about INTELLECT and even WORKS as you are sayin that 2 christians who are being tortured....both are subject to the same levels of torture....1 refuses to deny him, the other is slightly weaker person (technically speaking) and pretends to deny him to save his life and is let go...the so called stronger one is killed.

The one who pretended to deny him to go home to his wife still believed in his heart and fully intends to continue following jesus, just not openly/stupidly (like many christians don't in china and saudi arabia etc- the underground churches)
Likewise the one who did not deny him and was executed obviously still had christ in his heart

Now then by the logic of most saying we cant even pretend, even in extreme situations.....what does THIS example i gave do for the ego of the one who managed to not "verbally" deny his saviour?...."for we are not saved by WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST"
Think about it