Evidence for God from Science

Ok, let's slow down here. This wasn't meant to become an argument regarding the accuracy of the Bible. The Bible is a very important text and I hold it very closely as important to my faith, I just think that there are a few things that don't make sense. I mean, first of all on an unrelated topic the Bible does contain information on how to properly enslave another which I think that we can all today agree that slavery is not a good or sensible thing. This being said, I'm not using this as an argument against the Bible, I'm just using this as an example to say that not everything in the Bible is applicable to today's modern society.

Actually let's do slow down. This is what we call fundementals. Let's reason through this. The Bible is our written revelation of Jesus Christ. You say, it is unreliable and up for any interpretation. We've shown you where that logically fails.
Where did the wise man build his home? On the rock. When the rains came the house stood. The foundation was solid. Your foundation, by your own admission is weak. You have a weak view of the authenticity and reliability of the Bible. If your view of the Bible is weak, then why would you heed the warnings in the Bible? Answer: You won't.

You assume the Bible is unreliable, why? Because, you are having difficulty understanding things, such as the issue of slavery. But did you know there is solid explanation for slavery? You see you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. In one sense slavery is not a good thing. But you see, you are applying your modern impressions of slavery onto the Bible, as opposed to reading the Bible with sound exegesis. Like most of us you have a picture that comes to mind when you hear 'slavery.' Images of the Civil war and the abuses to African Americans. Evil? Without question. So, like many you are prone to equivocate this understanding onto the biblical text when it mentions slavery. This is an equivocation fallacy.

Would the Bible condone Chattel slavery from the times of the civil war? No, it would condemn it. The Bible does make provisions for slavery, but the differences in biblical servitude and how you envision slavery are dramatically different. Still, you are lumping one in with another. We need to understand the Bible in the sense of when it was written and to whom. Application is a very important element. I don't think anyone here is saying that we should willy nilly apply everything in the Bible to our lives. The Bible simply isn't written that way. Audience is one element of sound exegesis. http://www.wordsntone.com/index.php/sit ... reprise_1/
So, considering the issue of homosexual behavior, following sound exegesis, how do you arrive at the conclusion that the Bible is not reliable in its conclusions?

Even though we aren't commanded to live under theocratic rule as Israel was, we need to be careful as to whether we dismiss the Torah as 'out of date.' That is chronolgical snobbery. Take slavery for example. I can assure you that servitude as outlined in the Bible could actually do wonders for world hunger, homelessness, and poverty. All of which were a problem then and are a problem now. It would be infinitely more benevolent than many of the methods of dealing with it today. On the other hand, slavery as we know in the Civil War would be evil regardless of what era it occured in. It is objectively evil. Selling people as property and abusing them for financial gain is expressly condemned in the Bible.

I definitely use the Bible as God's mandates for what how we are to behave/live our lives, but I think that we can all agree that certain things in the Bible cannot or should not be applied towards today's society (also including how a man treats his wife).

Can you be specific? Chapter/verse.
Are you saying it is not applicable today for a husband to love his wife as Christ loved the church?

I am on here to try and find out from other Christians why they believe homosexuality to be a negative thing and what harm it has on our society.

Homosexuality (acts) is either right or wrong. A strong society is and always will revolve around a strong traditional nuclear family. Strong familes provide the basis for society, which also provide a basis for sound government. Anything that is contrary to this will lead to moral decay. It isn't any wonder we see a rise in militant homosexual activity. We also see a rise in divorce, promiscuity and a low opinion of the traditional nuclear family. They are all symptomatic of the collapse of the family. You are here telling us that we should accept something the Bible condemns, and except as normal and the same as traditional marriage, which is blessed in the same scriptures BTW. And you are saying we are WRONG for not doing so.

We could even apply your reasoning to the garden. What harm was there in eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Your inability and insensativity to the perils of homosexual behavior do not make them any less real. If God says don't, then we should take Him at His word.

I refer to people telling homosexual people that what they do is a sin and that if they do not change their ways they will surely go to hell

Haven't we already addressed this? I think we've heard from more than one person that no one is comdemning anyone to Hell. So, because you are saved, should you live according to being conformed to the image of Christ, or just do whatever the hell you want?

I have an online friend who loves the lord. He has homosexual tendencies but he refuses to act on them because he understands that in the bible homosexual acts are considered sinfull by God. He gave up a very part of himself for God.
He could have questioned God, he could have questioned the bible but he didnt, he simply obeyed out of love. This takes incredible faith and even though im straight, I look up to him as a christian role model. To me he doesnt have the faith of a mustard seed, he has the faith of a mountain:)

As for the slavery issue, Paul Copeland, in his excellent book, "Is God a Moral Monster," (http://www.amazon.com/Is-God-Moral-Mons ... 823&sr=1-1 thoroughly debunks any notions that Biblical slavery as practiced in ancient Israel was anything like the abomination of slavery practiced in the Americas during prior to the Civil War.

A last note about Biblical accuracy. If you believe that many parts of the Bible were not God's words or that significant parts or stories in it were embellishments or pure fiction written by men, then how do you know which is WHICH? How could you have any confidence in ANY of it? Fact is, to start picking and choosing which parts of the Bible were inspired or said by God and which parts were not is probably the slipperiest slope a man could find himself on. And as long as you are unsure - which is God's truth and which is not - then the Bible is basically worthless to you. How would you decide which is which - by your FEELINGS? Hope not!

mlynchrules wrote:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:I think the problem in this discussion with mlynchrules is that some here have been assuming that he's born-again.

Actually, I am a born-again Christian. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my own personal Savior. I just have a somewhat different value system in which I actually love everyone as God intended and do not judge others actions. I think that this is the way that God intended us to live our lives and I personally think that it is the best way to live my life.

It is good that you have accepted Jesus as Lord. Now, pray that the Spirit guide your spirit in the understanding of Scripture and acceptance of God's value system.

Katabole wrote:I agree, the Protestant churches are not all entirely angelic in their character, many problems still permeate and regardless of some of the faults of Catholicism, there is still quite a lot of integrity in that church.

Yes! There are faults with all denominations, I'm sure, because they are all made up of sinful individuals. Whenever I am tempted to put down a denomination, I remember that in Jesus' seven addresses to the Seven Churches (Revelation 2 and 3), He always ended by saying ''To him who overcomes...'' indicating that saved individuals can come from any one of the churches represented.

jlay wrote: All scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. It is apparent that [mlynchrules] friend has a low, and incorrect view of scripture.

Agreed. If mlynchrules really is Christian, he will be helped by your exposition of the Bible - eventually - and by conviction by the Holy Spirit. If he's just a poser, he'll remain as he is.

FL

Philip wrote:I am constantly amazed at people who, claiming to be Christians in acceptance of that God created the world and believe that He is all powerful, that His Incarnation in the Son came to die, be resurrected and save us, and yet they also have so much doubt about the accuracy of Scripture. If we believe that God is all powerful, that He created the universe and countless stars and galaxies - as well as the unfathomably complex conditions, physics and chemistries necessary for them to form, along with all the exponentially impossible interconnective systems and processes necessary for life on earth to exist and thrive - DO YOU REALLY THINK HE COULD NOT ALSO HAVE PROTECTED HIS HOLY WORD, PRECISELY AS HE SO DESIRED?!!!

And as Jesus says He came to fulfill ALL that is in the words of the prophets and Scripture - and certainly as we well know PRECISELY what was in the Scriptures known to those in the first century, and as the massive manuscript evidences and textural scholarship for the New Testament manuscripts gives us such a high confidence of the incredibly accurate transmission of the Scripture we now hold - DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD WOULD HAVE ALLOWED A DECIMATION, FRAGMENTATION/DESTRUCTION AND A RADICAL ALTERING OF SCRIPTURE HE/JESUS CAME TO FULFILL? Or that THE WORDS OF THOSE HE LEFT BEHIND (His Apostles) WOULD NOT ALSO BE PROTECTED?

DO YOU NOT BELIEVE THAT A GOD WHO CAME TO DIE TO FULFILL HIS WORDS WOULD NOT FIND IT IMPORTANT TO PROTECT THOSE VERY WORDS? DO YOU THINK A GOD WHO CAN CREATE AND SUSTAIN A UNIVERSE WOULDN'T ALSO HAVE THE POWER TO PROTECT HIS WORDS? Belief that allows for such a LIMITED view of God's abilities, as they relate to the PROTECTION of His word and how He sees the IMPORTANCE of his word, need to be reexamined in light of Who God says He is and how powerful He is.

You know Philip, what you said there is a great theological argument in itself. Call it the doctrine of protected scripture maybe .

Philip wrote:I can tell you God did not throw His words down to earth to His hand-picked, divinely inspired prophets and Apostles, haphazardly or like a drunk throwing a beer can out a speeding car's window (not caring who finds it, whether they find it, or in what condition they find it - if at ALL). That makes no sense at all, and a vast amount of scholarship confirms just how naive such false beliefs are.

Very well said.

Ok, apologies for not responding for a while. I just kind of had to take a step back for the weekend because I had felt like the conversation had slightly derailed and I wasn't getting the information that I was looking for anymore. This being said I am not going to respond to any of the new responses specifically. I also wanted to add that I don't like it when others question my faith or my Christian beliefs or my connection to the Lord. You have no right to tell me that I am wrong in my beliefs. During the weekend I encountered a really nicely written article or blog type thing. I really enjoyed reading it and I felt like this person did a good job of describing the issues that I have been fighting with and asking questions about. I would love it if you would read the article and let me know what you think. This guy did a much better job of articulating things that I have been trying to articulate, but I just couldn't. But why should I be able to? I'm a dance major after all! Jokes aside, please read the article here;

http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-christ ... e-gay.html

It's a pretty long article (make sure you read all three pages), but I think that it is very well worth the read even if you are of opposing beliefs.

Thank you, and should I not return to this page until after the fact I hope that you all have a wonderful Easter with your families.

Michael

Michael, I've only made one response and I don't believe I dumped on you, but I need to ask you if you're really serious when you make the statement that no-one has the right to tell you if you're wrong in your beliefs? Really? You think you've arrived and your beliefs are beyond anyone else's questions?

I'm also not a real big fan of the dramatic exit. We've welcomed you to our board and regardless of whether you appreciate or agree with all that has been said you initiated this thread and asked for feedback and you were given what you requested, even if it wasn't entirely what you expected or wanted. It seems like you've adopted that standard that we have no right to question your beliefs as to their correctness, but you on the other hand have the right to outright reject what you don't wish to hear.

None of what I've stated above has any bearing on the topic at hand but rather your expectations. You ask for no judgment, but then you reciprocate with your own judgment and absolute characterizations.

I hope you'll reconsider your decision to leave what you've started here. But moreso, I hope you'll step back and consider for a moment that you're evidencing some of the things you indicate that you don't appreciate coming toward you. Is that really what you want to leave as your final impression with regard to this issue? Are you unwilling to hear anything that challenges your belief or were you simply expecting that they would be accepted without examination or challenge?

oh, I'm sorry if I came off that way. I'm not leaving for good. When I said that I was leaving what I meant was that I have a busy week ahead of me, plus my grandmother is in the hospital and might die before the week is out so I might be going to a funeral this week in addition to going home to celebrate Easter with my family. I'll be back, I just don't know if I'll be back before next Monday.

I don't think that my religious beliefs are beyond anyone else, I just didn't appreciate it when I was being compared to the Jehovah Witness or being accused of "creating my own religion".

Again, I will most certainly be back, but it may not be a while and I didn't want any of you to think that I was ditching this forum. I find it very fascinating and I am learning a lot from it. Sorry if I came off as being really dramatic!

Fair enough. Thanks for the explanation. I hope things go well with your family plans and I've paused to pray for your grandmother. I'm glad my impression was wrong.

bippy123 wrote:I have an online friend who loves the lord. He has homosexual tendencies but he refuses to act on them because he understands that in the bible homosexual acts are considered sinfull by God. He gave up a very part of himself for God.
He could have questioned God, he could have questioned the bible but he didnt, he simply obeyed out of love. This takes incredible faith and even though im straight, I look up to him as a christian role model. To me he doesnt have the faith of a mustard seed, he has the faith of a mountain:)

I think people should pay attention to this post. Homosexuality is a sin if you act on it. Just like any other sin. I know it's a choice. When I was younger I was tempted by homosexuality and fell into the sin a few times ( shame ) but realizing it is a sin, I turned from such things and I can say that I'm 100% straight. Why? Because I trust GOD.
I have realized that there have been many times that I haven't understood something in the Bible, but I also realized that even if I don't understand it immediately, if I trust GOD, I'l understand later. Wait on GOD. Trusting GOD is very important when turning from or questioning sin. If you can really trust GOD, you'll turn away from what HE says is sinful, knowing that GOD knows what is best.

( I"m not saying to not be inquisitive, just trust what GOD says is sinful )

Tina wrote:

bippy123 wrote:I have an online friend who loves the lord. He has homosexual tendencies but he refuses to act on them because he understands that in the bible homosexual acts are considered sinfull by God. He gave up a very part of himself for God.
He could have questioned God, he could have questioned the bible but he didnt, he simply obeyed out of love. This takes incredible faith and even though im straight, I look up to him as a christian role model. To me he doesnt have the faith of a mustard seed, he has the faith of a mountain:)

I think people should pay attention to this post. Homosexuality is a sin if you act on it. Just like any other sin. I know it's a choice. When I was younger I was tempted by homosexuality and fell into the sin a few times ( shame ) but realizing it is a sin, I turned from such things and I can say that I'm 100% straight. Why? Because I trust GOD.
I have realized that there have been many times that I haven't understood something in the Bible, but I also realized that even if I don't understand it immediately, if I trust GOD, I'l understand later. Wait on GOD. Trusting GOD is very important when turning from or questioning sin. If you can really trust GOD, you'll turn away from what HE says is sinful, knowing that GOD knows what is best.

( I"m not saying to not be inquisitive, just trust what GOD says is sinful )

If for some odd reason you found that being "straight" was against God's will, could you/would you just flip back to homosexuality?

I ask simply to make a point. If you were able to "switch sides", it stems to reason that either God did a miracle in your life OR that you really were never a homosexual to begin with, but simply experimenting. While it is not impossible for God to do so, it seems you may be in the very few minority when it comes to this type of miracle. I could NOT switch sides if the tables were turned...

Good for you though.

BavarianWheels wrote:

Tina wrote:

bippy123 wrote:I have an online friend who loves the lord. He has homosexual tendencies but he refuses to act on them because he understands that in the bible homosexual acts are considered sinfull by God. He gave up a very part of himself for God.
He could have questioned God, he could have questioned the bible but he didnt, he simply obeyed out of love. This takes incredible faith and even though im straight, I look up to him as a christian role model. To me he doesnt have the faith of a mustard seed, he has the faith of a mountain:)

I think people should pay attention to this post. Homosexuality is a sin if you act on it. Just like any other sin. I know it's a choice. When I was younger I was tempted by homosexuality and fell into the sin a few times ( shame ) but realizing it is a sin, I turned from such things and I can say that I'm 100% straight. Why? Because I trust GOD.
I have realized that there have been many times that I haven't understood something in the Bible, but I also realized that even if I don't understand it immediately, if I trust GOD, I'l understand later. Wait on GOD. Trusting GOD is very important when turning from or questioning sin. If you can really trust GOD, you'll turn away from what HE says is sinful, knowing that GOD knows what is best.

( I"m not saying to not be inquisitive, just trust what GOD says is sinful )

If for some odd reason you found that being "straight" was against God's will, could you/would you just flip back to homosexuality?

I ask simply to make a point. If you were able to "switch sides", it stems to reason that either God did a miracle in your life OR that you really were never a homosexual to begin with, but simply experimenting. While it is not impossible for God to do so, it seems you may be in the very few minority when it comes to this type of miracle. I could NOT switch sides if the tables were turned...

Good for you though.

Not even for GOD?

If for some odd reason you found that being "straight" was against God's will, could you/would you just flip back to homosexuality?

I ask simply to make a point. If you were able to "switch sides", it stems to reason that either God did a miracle in your life OR that you really were never a homosexual to begin with, but simply experimenting. While it is not impossible for God to do so, it seems you may be in the very few minority when it comes to this type of miracle. I could NOT switch sides if the tables were turned...

Good for you though.

Bavarian,

a no true scotsman argument is fallacious. While you make a point, the way you are trying to reason it out is simply wrong. It presumes without evidence that homosexuality is not a choice. If I can reverse it, I'd say if a homosexual person turns straight, would you utterly disregard him as a homosexual and say he was never a homosexual to begin with, he was just experimenting, even though the person in question was a homosexual for a long time. It is broken reasoning with a shifting goal post.

Actually Neo it could be more fallacious than that.

The whole 'homosexual' term is a term of identity. We've just kind of accepted it, and never really question it to begin with. We use it like we identify race or gender. We say, "that person is gay, just like we say, that person is black. But is that really the case?
So, when someone is 'born' with the proclivity to feel attraction towards the same sex, we allow that to be identifed as an inate trait. And thus, the behavior is a natural by-product. I question whether we should actually do this because in essence we conceeding that such tendencies are sacred to identity. That is begging the question if you ask me.

I'm not saying that Wheels example isn't the NTS fallacy, but I'm not saying it is either. There may be a deeper issue with the terms.

I think we need to be careful in how we categorize homosexuality as a "choice".
We don't categorize Hetrosexuality as a choice do we?
Acting on our sexual inclination IS a choice, whatever those inclinations may be.
We can choose to act or not act BUT we can't choose those inclinations.