Evidence for God from Science

1over137 wrote:a couple of interesting links:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-p ... trist.html

"Another thing people often do not take into account is that God has allowed mankind to invent and develop many different kinds of medicines for healing. If a person has a true mental illness caused by hormonal or chemical imbalances in the brain, medication may be necessary. It is no different from going to a doctor to get medicine for an injury or physical illness. Similarly, God has blessed some Christian counselors and psychologists with supernatural insight, the ability to accurately evaluate a person and get to the true root of the problem. To ignore such giftedness seems unwise."

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christians-go-doctors.html

"So, should Christians go to doctors? God created us as intelligent beings and gave us the ability to create medicines and learn how to repair our bodies. There is nothing wrong with applying this knowledge and ability towards physical healing. Doctors can be viewed as God’s gift to us, a means through which God brings healing and recovery. At the same time, our ultimate faith and trust is to be in God, not in doctors or medicine. As with all difficult decisions, we should seek God who promises to give us wisdom when we ask for it (James 1:5)."

Bradigans wrote: As far as the absolute christians that you say are studying the sciences. It's simple, they're not christians. There are a lot of professors professing one thing or another today.. Why? Because it looks good on their resume.

Scientists who study science are not Christians? What's wrong on discovering how things were created? It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter. (Proverbs 25:2)

lover 137 wrote,
Scientists who study science are not Christians? What's wrong on discovering how things were created? It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter. (Proverbs 25:2)By honest I don't mean that you only tell what's true. But you make clear the entire situation. You make clear all the information that is required for somebody else who is intelligent to make up their mind.
-- Richard P Feynman

In every person there is a sun. Just let them shine.
-- Socrates

But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

RickD wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Ivellious wrote:Thanks, Rick. Took the words out of my mouth.

Must have been while you were kissing him

Daniel, I think you may be confused. Just because all men in Australia kiss each other, that doesn't hold true for the rest of the world.

Jac3510 wrote:Brad,

First just a bit about me so you know where I'm coming from. I'm a hospital chaplain so see a lot of "behind the scenes stuff" myself. I also teach courses in philosophy and theology at a local seminary and have been a committed Christian for well over twenty years. So let me address two issues your post raises for me:

1. Terms like "manic-depressive" are clinical terms. I would strongly advise you to stay away from them or anything that sounds like them, particularly when "self-diagnosing," because they have very specific meanings. It isn't just short-hand for "really happy then really sad" as the media often portrays it. So you know, as someone who has quite a bit of formal education in this area (mental health), I don't use them in my own ministry. When charting for patients, for instance, I don't ever use words like "depressed," as common as that term is. Why? For the same reasons I am saying to you. Unless I have recently had a consult with a psychiatrist, I use more objective (non-diagnostic) terms like "appears sad" or "frequently feels down and upset."

2. There is much in the field of modern psychology I deeply disagree with. Much, however, does not mean "all." Better to go to a psychiatrist than a general doctor, because psychiatrists can literally do blood tests and measure the amount of various chemicals in your blood. The body is a very balanced organism designed by God to work a certain way. When things get imbalanced, things go wrong. Sometimes those wrongs are strictly physical (severe cases like cancer; minor cases like a cold). Sometimes, though, they have mental impacts. There is no doubt that the body and the soul are closely related, and what you do to one affects the other. The Bible wants you to protect your body for that very reason. That is why certain drugs can truly change your state of mind. Your mind may be a spiritual thing, but it is also heavily influenced by the physical. So if there is something physical going on, you are in no less need of medical help than if you had a cold or cancer. Can God heal such physical problems? Of course! But most of the time, He uses medicine to get that.

All that is to say, don't hesitate going to get professional help. I know very well the stigma that has, especially among Christians. It shouldn't be there, though. The claim that Christians don't need professional mental help (on spiritual grounds) is no more credible than the claims of some pseudo-Christian sects that claim that we have no need of medical doctors. If you do have a physical problem, they can help. If you don't, they can't.

I would also suggest going and talking to a pastoral counselor at the same time, both for your peace of mind and just to keep a second opinion on hand. Your sin issue, for instance, is something a pastoral with good training can help with. Prayers help, but there are positive steps they can help you take--steps you need to take. You don't grow in Christ just by praying. You can pray ten hours day, but if you don't spend time loving your neighbor, being in Christian fellowship, studying your Bible, etc. you'll never grow. You'll just be talking to God about growing. In my experience, God blesses our efforts. He doesn't live our lives for us. Just so, you can ask God to deliver you from your particular sin, and that's fine. He will. But He expects you to use the resources He has provided you to do that. It'd be nice if He would just snap His divine fingers and fix your problems for you, but that's just not the way He works (most of the time!).

God bless

Your mind may be a spiritual thing, but it is also heavily influenced by the physical.

Bradigans wrote: Amen to THE WORD.. Good points.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Bradigan,

A few things to add to some of the other counsel you've received, much of which is good I believe.

Going back to your original post, you appear to believe that any symptoms you might have with regard to depression are the result of struggling with sexual temptation. You might be right. I don't know and so I have no better insight to go on than what you offer. Generalized anxiety and living in a sense of shame and guilt are enough to stress a person's emotional system and their conscience to where they can be miserable and in the midst of that type of exhaustion what results may well be similar to what those who experience depression from similar or chemical sources.

That said, let me suggest a few things. If you are a child of God with your faith in Christ filled with the Holy Spirit, living in sustained sin is going to impact many areas in your life. Add to that, if you believe that your relationship and value to God are based upon your performance then you're going to be a very miserable and unhappy person, because just as none of us can merit God's grace and favor, none of us can live a Christian life in our own power and strength. Further, God's love for you is secured and God's love for you is not conditional on your behavior. God hurts for us and with us I believe when we fail to embrace all that we are in Him and all that He's given but God's relationship with you is not one where He is watching you, waiting for you to slip up so He can pounce on you. God's desire is for your good. God doesn't punish His children for the sake of punishment. God doesn't punish us as His children at all. God disciplines us as a loving Father to children. That discipline may not be pleasant at times, but we can be assured that whatever He does with us in those situations is designed to restore us and grow us, not just take us to the woodshed to whip us because of what rotten sons and daughters we are.

This may seem very rudimentary, but it's revolutionary when we begin to understand who we are, who God is and what that relationship really means.

Being tempted is not sin, even if in the past we've given into temptation. Addictive behavior (and sexual sin can have an element of addiction to it) thrives when it is kept secret. Making this disclosure in this context although I know you're still anonymous tells me that you realize bring sin and improper sexual desire out into the open does something. It takes away the secret and robs that sinful and addictive cycle of much of its power. Knowing that others struggle with things and knowing that there are others we can reach out to when we need the support of brothers in Christ is a powerful tool. I'd encourage you to take the next step and ask God to lead you to other borthers in Christ with whom you can develop a relationship that allows you to drop the mask as you've started to do here and allow other to minister to you even as you support them too (there are few men, if any, who aren't tempted in some manner in this arena.)

As far as your description of "manic" depression and your view of the medical profession, let me offer this. There are doctors who are profiteers and there are others who are basically honest and seek to do the best with their knowledge for people. I don't doubt your experience in some medical contexts where you've seen less than honest or noble motives at work for the purpose of making money. That is out there. Characterizing the entire profession on the basis of your limited experience and suspicion that human nature can be less than noble is a form of stereotyping that may leave you throwing out the baby with the proverbial bathwater. If this is a concern for you, and if in addressing this situation in your life even as you begin to experience the strength that comes from being able to drop the mask before God and trustworthy brothers you still have issues then it might be that a medical exam would be a good thing. There are indeed elements of depression that can have a chemical imbalance in the body as a source. Being in a state of general anxiety and agitation can itself overload our systems and create such an imbalance. We don't always know with certaintly what creates the physical states we are in, but there's nothing wrong with utilizing the tools available to assist us when we have a goal and moving toward it. Statistitically the most effective approach to addressing depression and anxiety is not just conselling or not just medication, but there's a very significantly higher success rate when they're combined. If your current theory is not borne out in your addressing this issue in your life, don't rule out other approaches or options. If you need to network to find a doctor whom you can trust more than you do the medical profession in general, make that investment in time and effort to find one and ask for help if you need it.

If I can help more, feel free to post here, or pm me. I can offer more specific help in confidence if that would help you. Others here I'm sure can do the same.

In any event I'm pausing to pray for you as I close this that you'll find peace and strength sufficient to trust in God's love for you and draw from sources other than just your own effort that will lead you to better success in life.

bart

Lover 137 says, Interesting verses. So, you predict that I am going to be worse, that other seven more wicked spirits will come into me? How can you know that? It does not have to be true at all. Btw, do you think that this also can happen to you? And do you think that everybody who was down and then got little bit better will be even worse?

Lover 137 said, The wrong doctors I was speaking about and who harmed me were religious fanatics, not secular doctors. Fortunately, then I have found good doctors. The doctor I have now is also a believer. And I do not feel like a victim. She is happy I am getting better and that soon I will not have to visit her at all.

Lover 137 said, I'd like to ask you: Do you visit doctors at all? When you have a flue or so? I remember that my grandmother was rejecting treatment. Then she died and my father became strong atheist. Now tell me, was not she decieved?

Bradigans wrote:

1over137 wrote: The wrong doctors I was speaking about and who harmed me were religious fanatics, not secular doctors. Fortunately, then I have found good doctors. The doctor I have now is also a believer. And I do not feel like a victim. She is happy I am getting better and that soon I will not have to visit her at all.

The highway to hell is paved with good intentions and good intenders (Matthew 7:22-23)...

StMonicaGuideMe wrote:Love that story, Paul. Hardest part in life is discerning whether or not the "boats" come from God or if they're just other opportunities.

1over137 wrote:Philippians 4:7

Jac3510 wrote:Brad,

I wasn't referring to "spiritual" in a theological sense (e.g., spiritual v. carnal), but spiritual in a philosophical (e.g., immaterial v. material). Your mind is obviously not a material thing any more than your soul is. Yet both are necessarily (or, in strict philosophical terms, essentially (contra Moreland, who would say accidentally)) related to the body, that is, the material.

Thus, what you do the the material body affects the immaterial soul and vice-versa. That's why when the brain degenerates due to dementia, it affects functions of the mind, such as memory, imagination, and even beliefs. Likewise, a person can dwell so much on a particular subject so much so that they stress themselves out, and stress, as I'm sure you know, has very real physical effects! The point is that the body, though ensouled matter, is still a very complex system of biological, chemical, and other physical features. When some of those features are broken or imbalanced, it absolutely can affect your soul, and that where you are a spiritual person (in the theological sense of the word), a carnal person, or a straight up atheist.

1over137 wrote:Glad to see you back, Bradigans. How are you doing? Hope that better and better.

Bradigans wrote: Amen to THE WORD.. Good points.

I know, we should be speaking to you through Bible verses.

P.S.: You renamed me from 1over137 to lover137.