Evidence for God from Science

1over137 wrote:

1over137 wrote: Well, I am going to look into what Catholics and SDA-ists think about the verse 48.

Could you guys help me with this? I was not that succesful at googling the answer.

Here's a short pdf entitled, Predestination, Foreknowledge and Human Freedom that may help.

i was reading this and thought of a way one could be pre appointed into eternal life. since the punishment at the time of the end for denying God and choosing to follow sin and death is to have ones name removed, blotted out or wiped away from the lamb's book of life, Then that must mean that everyone's name is already in it to begin with right? "it is God's will that none shall be lost" so it sounds like everyone's rightful place is among the lord in the kingdom, thats where God wants us all to be. could that be the appointing they speak of? could it just be saying that they rejoiced at hearing the word of god and all those written in the lamb's book of life were believers? i dunno just a last minute idea that popped into my head.

secretfire6 wrote:i was reading this and thought of a way one could be pre appointed into eternal life. since the punishment at the time of the end for denying God and choosing to follow sin and death is to have ones name removed, blotted out or wiped away from the lamb's book of life, Then that must mean that everyone's name is already in it to begin with right? "it is God's will that none shall be lost" so it sounds like everyone's rightful place is among the lord in the kingdom, thats where God wants us all to be. could that be the appointing they speak of? could it just be saying that they rejoiced at hearing the word of god and all those written in the lamb's book of life were believers? i dunno just a last minute idea that popped into my head.

I think you are basically correct, but I would be very careful here. You don't want to make the same mistake Calvinists make. They make the text say something it doesn't say by assuming a preexisting theology. Now, in light of that preexisting theology, the verse obviously refers to pretemporal election. They end up, then, with a circular argument--using a text to prove a doctrine that they only get because they assume that doctrine as the means by which they interpret the text!

The simple fact is that the verse does not say that the people who believed were the ones that God had elected from the foundations of the earth, much less that they believed on account of that election. Again, it's easy to see how Calvinists see that verse as strongly consistent with their views, but only if you assume the Calvinist notion of election and predestination!

Now, in your case, you are bringing a preexisting theology to the text, too. I would have less a problem with yours than I do with the Calvinists, since the theology you are bringing comes (I think) very much out of the OT, and thereby assumes an OT view of what it means to be written in the book of life. But again, the book of life itself isn't mentioned in this passage or anywhere else in the context. So if it is there, it's at best an allusion. That doesn't make you wrong. It just means we need to tread very carefully and be careful how strong our claims are here.

If you take the time to read the paper I posted, I think you'll find the exegesis is very much consistent with what see to be the OT view of what it means to be written in the book of life (which is what you are suggesting here, I think correctly). So it seems to me that your view is very consistent with what the text actually teaches, and therefore, I think it's that much stronger an interpretation.

So again, bottom line, I agree with you, but for exegetical reasons . . . just be careful about doing systematics rather than exegesis!

Secretfire6,

If you end up doing a scriptural study about this, please start a thread with what you come up with. It's a very interesting topic.

its just something that popped into my head while i was reading this whole discussion. I don't believe we as humans are predestined to be either damned or saved. The beautiful thing about Christs new covenant is that is was done for ALL people. It's a gift that has already been given to you..question is are you going to open it, love it and thank him, or are you going to toss it aside and return it to the store later. The book of life seems to be similar right? we are all written in it from the beginning, but the choice of whether our name gets blotted out is ours, depending on how we live and what we believe or deny. That would make sense with what that verse says " all those who were appointed (written in the book) believed" and it may be safe to assume that those who refused to believe were blotted out of the book. I can see how if you read into that verse a certain way you could understand it to say that the fact that you are written in the book MADE you believe, but i cant think of any support for this anywhere else in the Bible...in fact i can think of several things that teach against that.
I love seeing it written in other languages, then taking it into English from there. Sometimes its so much more clear in another language.

RickD wrote:Secretfire6,

If you end up doing a scriptural study about this, please start a thread with what you come up with. It's a very interesting topic.

ill try and do one..i just dont know where i'd go to talk to anyone of the Calvinist side of things. I've never come across a Calvinist church...do they still exist in the US? there would be alot of firsts in this one for me haha

secretfire6 wrote:...do they still exist in the US?

There are Presbyterians (branch of Protestant Christianity that adheres to the Calvinist theological tradition) in the US. I have couple of friends from that denomination.

RickD » Sun May 13, 2012 4:15 am

Secretfire6,

If you end up doing a scriptural study about this, please start a thread with what you come up with. It's a very interesting topic.

Lol, Rick, didn't you have enough of the predestination topic, that was so hot on the board a few months ago and some really long threads went on that too. You want more

Hana, are you still searching on predestination and the Calvinism idea of it? We never got around to finish our dialog on this either. But its good to see that you are still looking for more. I hope you can see why there are some problem to the Calvinistic doctrine (no offense intended). I only say this to illustrate my POV, others may not share it.

neo-x wrote:Hana, are you still searching on predestination and the Calvinism idea of it? We never got around to finish our dialog on this either. But its good to see that you are still looking for more. I hope you can see why there are some problem to the Calvinistic doctrine (no offense intended). I only say this to illustrate my POV, others may not share it.

John. What I am searching on, is the consistency. I am curious about the various Bible verses (either supporting Calvinism or Arminianism). I have friends on both sides. And when some side tells me something I try to confront it with the other side.
Yes, I know what is your POV.
I still have not finished my searching. Will take me some time.

Consistency with regards to what?

neo-x wrote:Consistency with regards to what?

Bible, the word of God, should not contradict itself.

hmm, I guess I am not really seeing your point. Consistency can only be mapped via interpretation and there are various ways to do that. I do not know if you are doing this, but if you are countering argument from argument, taking selective interpretation of each group, then you will most likely be running into new problems. I know its not easy, but the problem is, each view is more or less consistent with what it says. However, if we can avoid the semantics' circus and lift up the essence of the nature of God, and his love and compassion and justice, that will certainly help you get a better understanding. To be frank, I think the more you walk in the spirit, the more God reveals himself to you and the more you can peek inside the heart of God. The scriptures are God's revelation but they are certainly not perfect (in the sense that they can not completely tell you everything about God) and they can not help you the same way the Holy spirit can. Plus I do not think we can understand scriptures truly unless we know God. It will be like reading a letter from a guy you never met or know, you do not know how he behaves or what he likes and dislikes. Honestly how much can you extract something about someone from a letter? Not much. You can claim to know the person at a superficial level, but you can not, in all honestly understand why he does what he does.

Get to know God better and you will with time, get to know the scriptures as well, more than you do now.

So my humble advice is to keep your search on and know the will of God by personal experience as well.

neo-x wrote: So my humble advice is to keep your search on and know the will of God by personal experience as well.

That's what I am doing and will do. I do not only 'read letters'. But 'reading letters' is important as well.

1over137 » Tue May 15, 2012 5:11 pm

neo-x wrote:
So my humble advice is to keep your search on and know the will of God by personal experience as well.


That's what I am doing and will do. I do not only 'read letters'. But 'reading letters' is important as well.

I am glad to know that. Im not against reading the letter, only saying that reading the letter is a moot point unless you know the guy who wrote the letter.