The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....

[RickD]

RickD wrote:Bav, could you please list all of the commandments that we need to follow? Do we need to be circumcised?



All 10. Those which were on the tablets of stone that were put into the Ark of the Covenant.

Ok, I understand. But, why only the 10? Why not any other commandments? Certainly, God still commanded other things. Were the other commandments just suggestions?

How often do we need to make the altar described here:
Exodus 20:24 24“‘Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings,b your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you. 25If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it. 26And do not go up to my altar on steps, lest your nakedness be exposed on it.’

Exodus 22:18 18“Do not allow a sorceress to live.
Do we need to follow this law, as well?



Is this in the decalogue?

See above questions.

Interesting as the OT lead to the NT and therefore is the basis for the NT, not to mention it is the only "Bible" Jesus knew and taught from and our Savior was a Jew...and since when is JEW spelled M. A. N. Mark 2:27 ? An error in translation or error in terms we can attribute to Jesus?

What are all the sabbaths symbols of? Doesn't the sabbath symbolize the coming of the Messiah, who would provide a permanent rest for His people. So, the sabbath points to the reality in Christ. Just like water baptism points to the reality of the Holy Spirit baptism.

RickD wrote:The Sabbath was a shadow of Christ. My reality should be with Christ, not following the Old Testament laws, that were never commanded to me to follow.
Colossians 2:16-17 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.



The Sabbath is not a shadow of Christ.

Bav, scripture says that the Sabbath day is a shadow of Christ. The sabbath symbolizes the permanent rest in Christ.

I suggest you read the 4th Commandment over again and point to me and to anyone else reading this thread, where in the 4th Commandment we are commanded to keep the Sabbath as a "shadow" of Christ.

I don't believe we are commanded to keep the Sabbath at all. So, why would I want to do that?

From http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Sabbath.html

By saying, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27), Jesus was restating the principle that the Sabbath rest was instituted to relieve man of his labors, just as He came to relieve us of our attempting to achieve salvation by our works. We no longer rest for only one day, but forever cease our laboring to attain God’s favor. Jesus is our rest from works now, just as He is the door to heaven, where we will rest in Him forever.

[RickD]

Bav, just to be clear, I have no problem if a Christian wants to worship God on Saturday. I just have a problem when a Christian judges another Christian, in regards to which day they should worship God.

Again,
Colossians 2 16:17 “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.”

We should not judge another Christian, by whether or not he holds one day as more sacred than another.

Romans 14:5 “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.”

[BavarianWheels]

RickD wrote:Bav, could you please list all of the commandments that we need to follow? Do we need to be circumcised?

All 10. Those which were on the tablets of stone that were put into the Ark of the Covenant.

Ok, I understand. But, why only the 10? Why not any other commandments? Certainly, God still commanded other things. Were the other commandments just suggestions?

You tell me. Why is it only the 10 were put into the Ark?

What are all the sabbaths symbols of? Doesn't the sabbath symbolize the coming of the Messiah, who would provide a permanent rest for His people. So, the sabbath points to the reality in Christ. Just like water baptism points to the reality of the Holy Spirit baptism.

Well...what does the commandment say it symbolizes? All the information is in the commandment.

The Sabbath was a shadow of Christ. My reality should be with Christ, not following the Old Testament laws, that were never commanded to me to follow.
Colossians 2:16-17 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Interesting that you've not quit eating or drinking...

Bav, scripture says that the Sabbath day is a shadow of Christ. The sabbath symbolizes the permanent rest in Christ.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Please note the context of Colossians being their heresy. Further notice the text speaks of eating and drinking, festivals, new moons...or a Sabbath day. While the NIV writers capitalized Sabbath, it is in the context of sabbath days as there were many "sabbaths" of days and years that were different from the 7th Day Sabbath of the decalogue. The context is clear and also notice again that these ceremonial laws were the shadow of Christ's redemptive work on the cross (the sacrificing) that ceased at Christ's death. The moral, or decalogue is perpetual as it is in the nature of the Spirit to do naturally which is contrary to our flesh nature ( Romans 7:14 ) and we cannot do FOR salvation, but BECAUSE of salvation.

I suggest you read the 4th Commandment over again and point to me and to anyone else reading this thread, where in the 4th Commandment we are commanded to keep the Sabbath as a "shadow" of Christ.

I don't believe we are commanded to keep the Sabbath at all. So, why would I want to do that?

From http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Sabbath.html

By saying, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27), Jesus was restating the principle that the Sabbath rest was instituted to relieve man of his labors, just as He came to relieve us of our attempting to achieve salvation by our works. We no longer rest for only one day, but forever cease our laboring to attain God’s favor. Jesus is our rest from works now, just as He is the door to heaven, where we will rest in Him forever.

I agree with that quote. God's "favor" or life/salvation, is not found in keeping the Commandments as none of us can. But we are dead to the flesh that cannot do so, but are alive in Spirit...Romans, Romans, Romans...sold as a slave to sin...

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature...

...the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

You, however are controllled NOT by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, IF the Spirit of God lives in you.

[RickD]

For those interested, here's a good article:Jesus is our Sabbath Rest

[BavarianWheels]

For those interested, here's a good article:Jesus is our Sabbath Rest

Certainly we can rest in Christ, however Christ is not the replacement of the Sabbath commandment nor did He even allude to this, but "as was His custom" is what we are shown. "Christians" is what we are...followers of Christ.

The very words of God, written by His own hand/finger...that we keep the Sabbath holy, not as a shadow of Christ's death on the cross, but (as the commandment itself and so God states) because He is God and God is our Creator. Notice the commandment says to "remember"...which is not a shadow of something in the future but a reference to something in the past.

Simple.

[RickD]

Bav, I've been doing a little searching about SDA. From websites, and what you've posted, I can see the scripture you use to back up why you think we should rest on the sabbath. But, I can't seem to find any scripture that says part of observing the Sabbath, should include, making the Sabbath, the day of worship. Could you point me to the scripture that you believe shows us we should not only rest on the sabbath, but worship as well?

Thanks

***Sorry, one more question, as well: How could the Sabbath be a sign between God and Israel, if all nations were expected to keep it? Exodus 31:17 "It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed."

[Byblos]

Bav, I've been doing a little searching about SDA. From websites, and what you've posted, I can see the scripture you use to back up why you think we should rest on the sabbath. But, I can't seem to find any scripture that says part of observing the Sabbath, should include, making the Sabbath, the day of worship. Could you point me to the scripture that you believe shows us we should not only rest on the sabbath, but worship as well?

Thanks

***Sorry, one more question, as well: How could the Sabbath be a sign between God and Israel, if all nations were expected to keep it? Exodus 31:17 "It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed."

And one more if you don't mind, where did God say that the Sabbath is to be kept on what we have come to know to be Saturday? Note that I'm not asking what historical Jewish tradition has come to believe what day the Sabbath falls on, but rather where God said on what day it should be.

[PaulSacramento]

This conversation got me to thinking so I got in contact with a friend of mine who is researcher for the Jewish Research Center in Toronto and how's uncle is a rabbi ( an understatement since he is one of THE Rabbi's in Canada in terms of research and OT studies).
I asked him how the Sabbath laws applies to Gentiles and Christians ( yes there is a difference).
He said that TODAY, the Sabbath applies ONLY to Jews ( and anyone else that chooses to observe it), but i n the past that it would apply to even gentiles LIVING/WORKING in Israel ( for a Hebrew of course). In regards to a Christian, from his understanding since they are NOT Jewish ( unless they are messianc Jews and he is not sure that they are Christians) that Law that was given to the Hebrews would not apply to them UNLESS they have chosen to follow it.
But he is not a NT scholar so...He asked his uncle and called me back and confirmed that Christians ( from his understanding) are not under the Sabbath Law and noted that the Sabbath law in of itself is observed in various ways even in Judaisim, he noted that some Jews make it based on the Sabbath in Israel ( not where ever they may live) and those that do that believe THEY are correct in their observation ( the majority of Jews do the standard observation base don their own timezone).
In regards to the specific day, the Torah does NOT mention a specific day and according to history it wasn't always what we know today as "Saturday", BUT it was always work 6 days and rest the 7th, whenever that 7th may be.

[PaulSacramento]

It seems to me that, at leas t according to Paul and the various NT passages quoted, that Gentile Christians were NOT under the law of the sabbath.
Now, if one is to disagree with Paul one most certianly can, I know I do in regards to certain things, but from what's been quotes it seems pretty clear that Saul od Tarsus, who as a JEW, believed that the gentile converts were NOT under the sabbath Law ( or the dietary laws or circumcision)

[Bradigans]

Everyday is a sabbath to those of us who have entered into HIS rest...

- Romans 14:5 - One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

- Hebrews 4:11 - Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Now as far as I'm concerned, seventh day adventism is a denominational spirit ism spawn out of the great whore or harlot church spoken of in Revelations 17:5...

I hope all know by now who that great harlot is (T.R.C.C.)...

IN CHRIST...

bradford

[Bradigans]

Through Christ who fulfilled the law for me (Matthew 5:17), I keep the sabbath everyday... For in Christ everyday is a sabbath (Romans 14:5), and everyday is a day of rest (Hebrews 4:11).. Christ finished (John 19:30), fulfilled, consummated everything depicted, foreshadowed, blue printed in the old covenant for me.

It's finished!!! Now why don't you just enter in by faith.. Don't build the old but enter the new.

- Galatians 2:18 - For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Alleluia!!! Thank Jesus!! Amen.

--- IN CHRIST ---

bradford

[Byblos]

Everyday is a sabbath to those of us who have entered into HIS rest...

- Romans 14:5 - One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

- Hebrews 4:11 - Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Now as far as I'm concerned, seventh day adventism is a denominational spirit ism spawn out of the great whore or harlot church spoken of in Revelations 17:5...

I hope all know by now who that great harlot is (T.R.C.C.)...

IN CHRIST...

bradford

Lol Bav, at least you weren't alone, you were lumped together with that great harlot. Although I'm not entirely certain that should be a source of comfort to you.

[BavarianWheels]

Bav, I've been doing a little searching about SDA. From websites, and what you've posted, I can see the scripture you use to back up why you think we should rest on the sabbath. But, I can't seem to find any scripture that says part of observing the Sabbath, should include, making the Sabbath, the day of worship. Could you point me to the scripture that you believe shows us we should not only rest on the sabbath, but worship as well?

Have you read the commandment? ...further, "as was His custom". Not only this, but also see what Christ did on the Sabbath. In fact, most of the ministry recorded about Christ is what He was doing on Sabbaths...and the reason the Pharisees wanted to get rid of Him along with claiming to be I AM.

Surely, that's plenty if one calls him/herself "Christian".

***Sorry, one more question, as well: How could the Sabbath be a sign between God and Israel, if all nations were expected to keep it? Exodus 31:17 "It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed."

Off the top of my head: Romans 10:12, Romans 11:16, 17

Grafted into the root...which is Jesus, but also indirectly as a Spiritual Jew/Hebrew. The chosen people...not now made up of a "bloodline" but made up of believers. See Romans 9:6-8

Now answer one for me. Hebrews 9:4,5 - The ark of the covenant contained the jar of manna...which was a sign that pointed at...? The tablets of stone was the law of God, the 10...and the Aaron's budding staff. Why is this so? What is the significance of putting these INTO the ark? And if it is only for a "certain" people and for a finite time, why is this ark then seen in the very temple of God? Revelation 11:19

A reading of Hebrews 9 reveals a lot. Especially Hebrews 9:23 which says the copies of heavenly things needed purifying. Copies of heavenly things. The tabernacle, the holy, most holy, the ark, ...all imagery of the things already in heaven. They needed purifying. In the OT, with the blood of goats etc, but now sprinkled and purified with Christ's blood. Once and for all. No more is there a need to "worship" in this manner ( see Romans 9:1 ) as was commanded and therefore THE SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME. The new covenant is NEW, only in the sense that it is now purified with Christ's atoning blood...once and for all. No more need to perform these acts of worship to God for forgiveness of sins as they are now and forever atoned for and now we live by faith...which is the same faith Abraham ( Romans 4:1-3 ) was justified by. The covenant remains the same except that the OT believer had faith in a future event (a sacrifice of God's lamb) and a Messiah. The NT believer ( post-Christ's death ) has faith in a past event (the cross) of which God's Lamb, the Messiah (Christ), is revealed.

Hebrews 10:1 then clearly defines that the shadow of good things to come is the sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year...who draw near to worship for remission of sin. It is this "worship" that was nailed to the cross...not the 10 Commandments as Paul makes clear over and over that the Law points to sin ( Romans 3:20, Romans 3:31 )and the believer delights in God's law ( Romans 7:22 )

So again my question is...why is it the tablets of stone are in the ark of the covenant...later seen by John in vision to be in the very temple of God...heaven itself? If they are done away with and no longer binding, what are they doing in heaven? There must be some significance to these.

I suggest that the Law of God is perpetual. The 10 Commandments will always point at sin both here and on the other side of salvation.
It is not suggested that NOT keeping the Sabbath of the commandment is to lose salvation, ( Romans 3:28 ) but rather is a point that the ones who live according to the Spirit ( Romans 8:4 ), submit to ( Romans 8:6-8 ).

[BavarianWheels]

Lol Bav, at least you weren't alone, you were lumped together with that great harlot. Although I'm not entirely certain that should be a source of comfort to you.

If you're there, Byblos, I'm comforted.
.
.

[PaulSacramento]

Bav, since you quoted Romans, do you believe that Paul advocated that gentiles keep the sabbath?