Evidence for God from Science

All YECs that I know, hold that the days were 24 hours each.

Really?

jlay wrote:

All YECs that I know, hold that the days were 24 hours each.

Really?

Yes, Jlay. I'm referring to the usual suspects, of course. My list of yec's that I know is small. If it came across as sounding like I was saying that all YECs believe the days were 24 hours, then that's not what I meant. But, wouldn't you say that the prevailing belief among YECs, is a 24 hour day, in Genesis?

To be honest I tend not to talk about YEC vs. OEC vs. TE. Why? Because I think the negatives far outweigh the positives of such discussions in most circumstances. Overall I'd say I tend toward OEC these days, but I remain open-minded. I think a literal Adam and Eve is important, although I don't see why denying the existence of Adam is necessary even under TE.

Its not that you should hide from issues, I just think there are issues far more pressing (some somewhat related to science, some not) that are virtually ignored by the Christian with an "average" knowledge of issues in relation to God and theology and Christianity.

Part of the problem with YEC (and although I say that I tend toward OEC, I do have YEC sympathies to be sure) is that there seems to be a tendency to be reactionary right now. Of course I don't think ridiculing young earthers does any good and only adds to the issue.

narnia4 wrote:To be honest I tend not to talk about YEC vs. OEC vs. TE. Why? Because I think the negatives far outweigh the positives of such discussions in most circumstances. Overall I'd say I tend toward OEC these days, but I remain open-minded. I think a literal Adam and Eve is important, although I don't see why denying the existence of Adam is necessary even under TE.

Its not that you should hide from issues, I just think there are issues far more pressing (some somewhat related to science, some not) that are virtually ignored by the Christian with an "average" knowledge of issues in relation to God and theology and Christianity.

Part of the problem with YEC (and although I say that I tend toward OEC, I do have YEC sympathies to be sure) is that there seems to be a tendency to be reactionary right now. Of course I don't think ridiculing young earthers does any good and only adds to the issue.

So, we shouldn't be bringing to light, the fact that Ken Ham preaches his creation interpretation, while being dishonest about the positions, and people that don't agree with him? Maybe, whenever someone in the position that Ham is in, bears a false witness of his Christian brothers, we should just ignore it because our bringing it to light causes divisions? And furthermore, pointing out someone's wrong methods, equals "ridiculing"?

I wasn't calling anybody out, there is a place for discussion and rebuke (if necessary). I just think too much emphasis is put on the issue.

RickD wrote: Your interpretation of 1), is off. All YECs that I know, hold that the days were 24 hours each.

Yup your correct it is 6 24 hour days and the earth is 6000 years old. I had it backwards

RickD wrote:As I've said before, and I'll say it again,"The age of the earth is NOT a salvation issue."

Well in and of itself the simple age of the earth may not be a salvation issue but, this is not just a simple issue as it is part of a foundational understanding about God and how he operates. I would ask you "if it isn't important then why would God make it part of the bible? aren't we told to live by every word of the mouth of God?
To me every word and concept is a precious piece of understanding about our maker and if he says something then I instinctively feel it has importance and I may not immediately understand its true meaning. To teach others that such things are not important based on your understanding may turn out to be a costly error. We have one life time to come to our creator and be accepted for eternal life, isn't every jot or tittle worthy of consideration?

PaulSacramento wrote:I would add that neither is taking the bible as literal and concrete a "salvation issue".

The simple question here would be is this you speaking or the comforter (holy spirit)?

PaulSacramento wrote:I would think that many a soul was saved without ever thinking that ALL the bible is to be viewed as literal and concrete.

I have thought a number of things and been wrong. Historically numerous people thought they were correct in what they thought and did. The jewish priests come to mind. My opinion here is that we should not teach others to believe what we believe nor perform in a way that we think is right. The holy spirit is the only comforter that man can have within himself which can define what is correct according to the standard of God.

narnia4 wrote:I wasn't calling anybody out, there is a place for discussion and rebuke (if necessary). I just think too much emphasis is put on the issue.

Maybe. But you are in the forums of an Old Earth Creationism website.

KBCid wrote:

RickD wrote: Your interpretation of 1), is off. All YECs that I know, hold that the days were 24 hours each.

Yup your correct it is 6 24 hour days and the earth is 6000 years old. I had it backwards

RickD wrote:As I've said before, and I'll say it again,"The age of the earth is NOT a salvation issue."

Well in and of itself the simple age of the earth may not be a salvation issue but, this is not just a simple issue as it is part of a foundational understanding about God and how he operates. I would ask you "if it isn't important then why would God make it part of the bible? aren't we told to live by every word of the mouth of God?
To me every word and concept is a precious piece of understanding about our maker and if he says something then I instinctively feel it has importance and I may not immediately understand its true meaning. To teach others that such things are not important based on your understanding may turn out to be a costly error. We have one life time to come to our creator and be accepted for eternal life, isn't every jot or tittle worthy of consideration?

But, the age of the earth, isn't in the bible. OEC, YEC, Theistic Evolution are all interpretations. Read John 3:16, that's pretty straightforward. There is no verse that says the age of the earth.

RickD wrote:

narnia4 wrote:I wasn't calling anybody out, there is a place for discussion and rebuke (if necessary). I just think too much emphasis is put on the issue.

Maybe. But you are in the forums of an Old Earth Creationism website.

Well let's put it this way. The Scriptures spell out an extremely clear way to resolve conflicts between brothers and sisters in Christ. When there's millions of Christians it becomes difficult to go out and seek to address each Christian personally if they have offended you, but I don't know that that gives one believer license to go out and defame or malign another believer's character because they disagree with them on an issue or just because a Christian might be famous. That even goes for vital issues, of which the age of the universe/earth is not. This applies to Ham and anything he says and those who speak against him.

Again, I'm not calling anybody here out. I'm not chastising anyone. I'm merely making general comments of the tone this debate has had throughout the church in the Western world.

Now as a caveat, there also has to be a venue for Christians to speak out against those who would do the church harm. Sometimes a public venue maybe. It just needs the right tone.

I'm not going to dive into another Ken Ham thread deeply because I've pretty much written him off as a rational voice in the conversation and he seems intent on hurtling deeper and deeper into alienating himself and offending more and more people.

I'm just waiting to see what the next threshold he's going to cross is.

RickD wrote:But, the age of the earth, isn't in the bible. OEC, YEC, Theistic Evolution are all interpretations. Read John 3:16, that's pretty straightforward. There is no verse that says the age of the earth.

Rick it is quite true that there is no summed up number that states in years how old everything is, but it is just as true that the old testament kept an elegant series of time frames that could be added up to derive such a number as it traces the lineage from Adam to Christ with the decendant lifetimes measured. I would assert that one could come quite close to the actual age in that manner.

John 3:16 is of course is fairly indicative of the act you must perform to acheive the goal but James 2:19 has this to say as well;
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." So is it just believing that saves ones soul? or maybe it is more specific that one must believe that the Son came in the flesh....

Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

or maybe

Mar 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.
Luk 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

It would appear that a bit more than simply believing in God and his Son is necessary to gain eternal life shall we let Christ weigh in on this subject?

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Luk 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

It would seem that there is a bit more involved that just simply believing. It is also written....

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

KBCid wrote:

Rick it is quite true that there is no summed up number that states in years how old everything is, but it is just as true that the old testament kept an elegant series of time frames that could be added up to derive such a number as it traces the lineage from Adam to Christ with the decendant lifetimes measured. I would assert that one could come quite close to the actual age in that manner.

Yes, that is what many YECs do. But there are too many missing names. The genealogy is not meant to be a complete ancestry from Adam.

KBCid, if you want to believe you have to do something other than have faith in the Jesus Christ of the bible, in order for you to be saved, then go ahead. If you want to believe that ussher's chronology is complete, and the earth began in 4004 bc, then that's your prerogative.
http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth ... ogies.html

RickD wrote: Yes, that is what many YECs do. But there are too many missing names. The genealogy is not meant to be a complete ancestry from Adam.

This is an area that I intend to focus on at some point for better understanding. It is of course another big divisional issue among those who assert to be followers of Christ. The fact can only be that someone is wrong or both may be wrong. At this point I can only provide a perspective based on cursory understanding.

RickD wrote:KBCid, if you want to believe you have to do something other than have faith in the Jesus Christ of the bible, in order for you to be saved, then go ahead. If you want to believe that ussher's chronology is complete, and the earth began in 4004 bc, then that's your prerogative.

Rick I don't want to simply believe something for the sake of taking a position. I want to believe what God intended me to believe in. So I must consider that every word that he inspired is important and I must do my best to make sure that uninspired doctrine is not a foundation that my belief is based on as no one here will be beside me when my maker considers my actions during judgement.
you will find that I use the bible to 'personally' validate or invalidate what any other creation asserts as a truth. So don't assume that a stance I take for the purpose of testing is the ultimate one I will choose. We are told to prove all things and I can't do that without testing.

KBCid,
Do you believe that we can 'see" God in nature? that nature reveals to Us God?
Not in a pantheistic view, but as it is written in the bible that "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1) ?
If so, to you agree that by better understanding nature and the universe, we can better understand God ? ( to a limited degree of course).