Free will

[Philip]

God gave us free will WITHIN PRECISE PARAMETERS! We can't fly, can't walk on water, can become invisible, can't do a lot of things. As well, our choices are not unlimited.

And as God is ALL knowing, he already knows the end results of all of our choices - which is why the Book of Life is already written. He knows precisely who will ultimately choose to repent/have faith/follow and who will not. He knows the eternal fates of us all. And thus, per His perfect knowledge of all things future and of all people's hearts, minds and ULTIMATE choices, and of all of His shaping, influencing and directing events, has plugged each of us into a specific time, place and culture that also perfectly fits His comprehensive plan for ALL end results. But God is not limited by OUR freely chosen actions or decisions, OTHER THAN, He cannot (Self-imposed)/will not save us if we refuse Him. For God, there is only a pre-process and also end-result, ABSOLUTE certainty about ALL things. The past, present and future are ALL on one page in front of Him, all at once. Time, Satan, evil, every creature, being, molecule, process, good and bad are all under His control. And He NEVER causes ANY sin, but certainly controls and directs those of evil intents and actions to the outcome He so desires. EVERY THING and EVERY ONE God has ever created has a purpose.

God is beyond any parameter, definition, capability or understanding our puny, finite minds can imagine!

[RickD]

Great post Philip!

[BryanH]

Nooooo...if you have free will, you are the one that chose not to go to God....so that is exactly free will, if God hadn't really made free will, he would have dragged you to his kingdom, no matter how you resisted. You said it in bold letters, man. You chose. You want to go against God and then not accpet the consequences as well. That is like saying I don't believe in God but I want to go to heaven...Duh! Why?

There is ONLY ONE WAY to enter Heaven: obey God and through Jesus Christ.

See the problem with FREE WILL?

Do you think you have a free will in your country even if they have laws? If you steal, that is your free will, does that make you above the law of your country? Just because it is your free will. Your law is against stealing if you steal with you free will, should you not be held accountable? This is so ridiculous that I don't know whether to laugh or be sad at the absurdity of your statement. This was just a bad argument, Bryan, really bad one.

Don't compare human laws and the outcomes of not respectong human laws with the outcomes of God's laws. I think that you will find it that there is no actual term of comparisson.

The one being ridiculous here is actually you because you tried to compare 2 types of laws that don't go together at all.

If you kill someone, you will go to prison or sentenced to death. (Human Law)
If you kill someone, you will end up in hell for eternity. (God Law)

See any difference?

That is pure love Bryan, you wanna stay dirty while someone clears up your mess. This is not against your will at all, since you would have to come to Christ for that redemption to be whole and complete. The choice is yours and yours alone, your FREE WILL.

Let me rephrase something so it's a little bit more obvious: THE ONLY WAY to redemption and being complete is choosing to come to Christ.

There is ONLY ONE WAY but there is FREE WILL.

God gave us free will WITHIN PRECISE PARAMETERS! We can't fly, can't walk on water, can become invisible, can't do a lot of things. As well, our choices are not unlimited.

And as God is ALL knowing, he already knows the end results of all of our choices - which is why the Book of Life is already written. He knows precisely who will ultimately choose to repent/have faith/follow and who will not. He knows the eternal fates of us all. And thus, per His perfect knowledge of all things future and of all people's hearts, minds and ULTIMATE choices, and of all of His shaping, influencing and directing events, has plugged each of us into a specific time, place and culture that also perfectly fits His comprehensive plan for ALL end results. But God is not limited by OUR freely chosen actions or decisions, OTHER THAN, He cannot (Self-imposed)/will not save us if we refuse Him. For God, there is only a pre-process and also end-result, ABSOLUTE certainty about ALL things. The past, present and future are ALL on one page in front of Him, all at once. Time, Satan, evil, every creature, being, molecule, process, good and bad are all under His control. And He NEVER causes ANY sin, but certainly controls and directs those of evil intents and actions to the outcome He so desires. EVERY THING and EVERY ONE God has ever created has a purpose.

God is beyond any parameter, definition, capability or understanding our puny, finite minds can imagine

Nice speech!! But one question though: how do you know all these things you are talking about?

God is beyond any parameter, definition, capability or understanding our puny, finite minds can imagine

Anyways, answer me one question: How do YOU know what GOD knows? That's what I'm curious about.

[Philip]

Bryan asked: God is beyond any parameter, definition, capability or understanding our puny, finite minds can imagine

Anyways, answer me one question: How do YOU know what GOD knows? That's what I'm curious about.

Because, Bryan, GOD has revealed to us these things about Himself THROUGH SCRIPTURE. And He has only told us what WE can or need to UNDERSTAND. And as we are finite and of limited ability to understand - and God is unlimited, knowing all that can be known - then I would say all I've said is within widely agreed-upon scriptural parameters.

Clearly, the processes and systems of which God has created and which we diligently study are physical (in nature) and yet, every year, as discoveries are added to, the more we realize how little we really already knew. And as God is spirit, and as their is an unseen world of powers and principalities, etc. - of which we know very little, but God has said exists, then I think my "unfathomable" description of Him is pretty apt. Of course, if you don't accept that scripture is the word of God (perhaps believing that is it s the mere work of men), and indeed if it were NOT of God, then my description WOULD be idle speculation.

[PaulSacramento]

You have to be careful when you say that you believe God to be this way or that way because the bible says so.
The common argument to that is what makes the bible's view of God any better than any other view?
One must be careful of circular reasoning in this situation.
If one says that God is A because the bible is A and then says that the bible has authority because God says so, then answers to the question, "Which God", with the answer, "the God of the bible", well... you see the issue?

God has been revealed to US in many ways:
His Written word
His living Word ( Jesus)
His universe
His HS that guides and strenghtens Us.
One must be careful NOT to focus on only ONE way that God has revealed Himself to Us.

[Philip]

One must be careful NOT to focus on only ONE way that God has revealed Himself to Us.

While certainly true, God does reveal Himself to us in many ways - through the universe, His Creation, His Spirit, etc. But ALL that I have mentioned are stated in many, many scriptures. And it appears that the person I was responding to does not accept scripture as being God's Word. Notice, he asked me, "How do YOU know what GOD knows?" Clearly, I DON'T. But I do know what His Word says over and over, and in many places. And these references were what I based my answer on - classical, conservative, evangelical understandings of scripture - that MOST conservative Christians (by FAR) would agree upon.

[BryanH]

@Philip

This is just a question as my knowledge of the scripture is limited: Did God actually say that he is beyond any parameter, definition, capability or understanding our puny, finite minds can imagine?

[Philip]

BryanH asked: "Did God actually say that he is beyond any parameter, definition, capability or understanding our puny, finite minds can imagine?"

Yes, Bryan, He has said these over many places in the Bible.

The very first attribute of God (below), alone, is absolutely mind blowing - He is ETERNAL. I remember being a kid and suddenly becoming aware of God's eternalness. It blew my mind - STILL does. That he is omniscient, omnipresent - His attributes are beyond all we can even imagine.

Eternal:
(God had no beginning and will have no end.)

OT: Gen 1:1; 21:33; Exod 3:14; Deut 32:40; 33:27; Job 36:26; Ps 10:16; 41:13; 90:2; 93:2; 102:27; 106:48; 117:1f; Isa 40:28; 43:13; 44:6; 57:15; Hab 1:12.

NT: Acts 15;18; Rom 1:20; 16:25f; 1Tim 1:17; 6:16; Heb 4:3; 11:3; Rev 1:4; 11:17; 21:6.

Incomprehensible:
(God cannot be fully known.)

OT: Job 9:10; 11:7-9; 36:26; Ps 139:6; 145:3; Isa 40:28; 55:8f.

NT: Rom 11:33-36; 1Cor 2:11,16; Eph 3:9; Phil 4:7.

Omniscient:
(God knows all things.)

OT: 1Ki 8:37-39; Job 34:21f; 37:16; 38:1-3; Ps 10:11-15; 33:13-15; 59:5-9; 94:4-11; 139:1-6,11f,15-18; 147:4f; Prov 15:3; Eccl 12:13f; Isa 29:15f; 40:12-14,25-28; Jer 16:17; 32:19; Zech 4:10.

NT: Matt 6:7f; 10:30; Acts 15:18; Rom 11:33; Col 2:3; Heb 4:13; 1John 3:20.

Here is a more comprehensive list of the attributes of God: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/att.html

[BryanH]

@Philip

Thank you for such an extensive answer, although some of the quotes you have provided don't relate to the question.