Evidence for God from Science

MAGSolo wrote:Rick D. The text says: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In pain thou shalt bring forth children. If he is telling her that she shall bring forth children in pain, that doesnt sound like the pain was already there. It seems pretty clear that he is saying that because you have done this thing I have told you not to do, now you will conceive children in pain and sorrow.

The text doesn't say Eve suffered horribly. The text says her pains would be increased

KJV: I will greatly multiply thou sorrow
NIV: I will make your pains in childbearing very severe

Eve wanted to know what life was like outside the Garden of Eden, outside of paradise, to know what it is like to be God.
Well...
Since she had so many kids, it couldn't have been that bad

PaulSacramento wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:And how is it evident that God loves us?

Jesus Christ.
If that isn't good enough (though for a Christian it is more than enough) and we take the view that God DOES exist and that God is GOD.
The simple fact that God still sustains US ( the universe in whole and humans in particular) and has not "wiped us off" the face of the planet, no matter how much crap we've done.
Well, if that ain't love...
God created us out of love ( by Us I mean US and the universe), there is no reason to think that God created the universe for any other reason other than a supreme act of love.

Jesus Christ? What does that mean? Are you saying Jesus Christ is what makes it evident that God loves us? Have you ever met or seen Jesus?

MAGSolo wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:And how is it evident that God loves us?

Jesus Christ.
If that isn't good enough (though for a Christian it is more than enough) and we take the view that God DOES exist and that God is GOD.
The simple fact that God still sustains US ( the universe in whole and humans in particular) and has not "wiped us off" the face of the planet, no matter how much crap we've done.
Well, if that ain't love...
God created us out of love ( by Us I mean US and the universe), there is no reason to think that God created the universe for any other reason other than a supreme act of love.

Jesus Christ? What does that mean? Are you saying Jesus Christ is what makes it evident that God loves us? Have you ever met or seen Jesus?

What does MY personal experience have to do with this? Unless you would view that as proof? would you?

PaulSacramento wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:Rick D. The text says: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In pain thou shalt bring forth children. If he is telling her that she shall bring forth children in pain, that doesnt sound like the pain was already there. It seems pretty clear that he is saying that because you have done this thing I have told you not to do, now you will conceive children in pain and sorrow.

The text doesn't say Eve suffered horribly. The text says her pains would be increased

KJV: I will greatly multiply thou sorrow
NIV: I will make your pains in childbearing very severe

Eve wanted to know what life was like outside the Garden of Eden, outside of paradise, to know what it is like to be God.
Well...
Since she had so many kids, it couldn't have been that bad

I dont see your point. She wanted to know what it was like to be God? So what? Whats wrong with that? If you had a legitimate opportunity to greatly increase your knowledge a billion fold, can you honestly say you wouldnt take that opportunity?
Also I think you need to ask a woman how it feels to give birth because you seem to be very ignorant of the matter. Most women Ive heard describe it have said it is unbearably painful but simply worth it in the end for the act of bringing a life into this world. But for you to say it couldnt have been that bad is just an incredibly uneducated statement.

PaulSacramento wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:And how is it evident that God loves us?

Jesus Christ.
If that isn't good enough (though for a Christian it is more than enough) and we take the view that God DOES exist and that God is GOD.
The simple fact that God still sustains US ( the universe in whole and humans in particular) and has not "wiped us off" the face of the planet, no matter how much crap we've done.
Well, if that ain't love...
God created us out of love ( by Us I mean US and the universe), there is no reason to think that God created the universe for any other reason other than a supreme act of love.

Jesus Christ? What does that mean? Are you saying Jesus Christ is what makes it evident that God loves us? Have you ever met or seen Jesus?

What does MY personal experience have to do with this? Unless you would view that as proof? would you?

"That God remained with them and loved them and US is, to me, evident"

These were your words. You said it is evident to you, so I am asking how it is evident to you

MAGSolo wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:Rick D. The text says: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In pain thou shalt bring forth children. If he is telling her that she shall bring forth children in pain, that doesnt sound like the pain was already there. It seems pretty clear that he is saying that because you have done this thing I have told you not to do, now you will conceive children in pain and sorrow.

The text doesn't say Eve suffered horribly. The text says her pains would be increased

KJV: I will greatly multiply thou sorrow
NIV: I will make your pains in childbearing very severe

Eve wanted to know what life was like outside the Garden of Eden, outside of paradise, to know what it is like to be God.
Well...
Since she had so many kids, it couldn't have been that bad

I dont see your point. She wanted to know what it was like to be God? So what? Whats wrong with that? If you had a legitimate opportunity to greatly increase your knowledge a billion fold, can you honestly say you wouldnt take that opportunity?
Also I think you need to ask a woman how it feels to give birth because you seem to be very ignorant of the matter. Most women Ive heard describe it have said it is unbearably painful but simply worth it in the end for the act of bringing a life into this world. But for you to say it couldnt have been that bad is just an incredibly uneducated statement.

I guess the use of smilies is lost on you eh? as is common sense or the assumption that you have a base understanding of Theology.
Not sure what you think you are gonna get with that attitude, but good luck with that.
As for your question:
No, it is NOT for FINITE beings to be like God since they have NOT earned that knowledge and have not "paid the price" of what it takes to be like God.
Can you imagine what humans would do with Omnipotence or Ominscience ?
What was wrong in what Eve and Adam did?
Well, nothing is you believe that the end ( the fall) justified the means ( disobeying God).

MAGSolo wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:And how is it evident that God loves us?

Jesus Christ.
If that isn't good enough (though for a Christian it is more than enough) and we take the view that God DOES exist and that God is GOD.
The simple fact that God still sustains US ( the universe in whole and humans in particular) and has not "wiped us off" the face of the planet, no matter how much crap we've done.
Well, if that ain't love...
God created us out of love ( by Us I mean US and the universe), there is no reason to think that God created the universe for any other reason other than a supreme act of love.

Jesus Christ? What does that mean? Are you saying Jesus Christ is what makes it evident that God loves us? Have you ever met or seen Jesus?

What does MY personal experience have to do with this? Unless you would view that as proof? would you?

"That God remained with them and loved them and US is, to me, evident"

These were your words. You said it is evident to you, so I am asking how it is evident to you

I already told you how.

You said Jesus Christ. I then asked have you ever seen Jesus Christ?

MAGSolo wrote:You said Jesus Christ. I then asked have you ever seen Jesus Christ?

And I asked you IF my personal opinion would count as proof, well? would it?
You seem to be using the bible to prove, in your view, that God doesn't love Us.
Only right that I use the bible, the very method you are using, to show otherwise, no?

MAGSolo wrote:Rick D. The text says: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In pain thou shalt bring forth children. If he is telling her that she shall bring forth children in pain, that doesnt sound like the pain was already there. It seems pretty clear that he is saying that because you have done this thing I have told you not to do, now you will conceive children in pain and sorrow. Why would God create Eve to conceive in pain from the moment he created her? Pain is not a necessity of childbirth as man species give birth without pain.

The text doesn't say Eve suffered horribly. The text says her pains would be increased

KJV: I will greatly multiply thou sorrow
NIV: I will make your pains in childbearing very severe

I guess we would have to do a study on the hebrew, in Genesis 3:16. I can't look into it now, because I'm at work. If someone else doesn't, I will as soon as I can.

Whatever the case is, Eve was the one punished. All the guilty parties were punished. The serpent, Adam, and Eve.

PaulSacramento wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:You said Jesus Christ. I then asked have you ever seen Jesus Christ?

And I asked you IF my personal opinion would count as proof, well? would it?
You seem to be using the bible to prove, in your view, that God doesn't love Us.
Only right that I use the bible, the very method you are using, to show otherwise, no?

I dont need to use the bible to show that God doesnt love us. The real world around us is evidence enough that he doesnt love us, doesnt care about us, or more likely doesnt even exist

MAGSolo wrote:The real world around us is evidence enough that he doesnt love us, doesnt care about us, or more likely doesnt even exist

Hello MAGsolo.

On the contrary, the real world around us confirms that God does exist. As scripture says:

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

You put up a picture of a starving child with a vulture sitting next to him and to me your message screams, "Where's the justice?" Well if there is no God, then there certainly is no justice, not in this life and by definition not in the next. I'd have to agree with atheist biologist/philosopher Richard Dawkins because he said,"... that this universe we live in is precisely the type of universe to expect if there is no God. There is no right or wrong. There is no good or evil. There is no love or hate. And there is no justice. DNA neither knows no cares. DNA just is and we dance to its music. All there is, is blind pitiless indifference."

If the God of the Bible is real which I believe, then there will be justice as it is written, just not in the method you expect because it seems to me if God doesn't bring about justice right away, then to you God can't be real. The Bible says:

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If all we are is DNA and that we begin life from nothing in helplessness, ignorance and inexperience and we eventually die in pain, then as far as I am concerned your moral outrage cannot be justified.

Im not outraged at all. On the contrary I understand that things that occur in the picture above should be expected as a result of living in a Godless world. Stuff like this happens precisely because there is no supernatural, all powerful, loving, good entity watching over us and loving us. God cannot be all powerful, good and loving and yet allow the suffering that is a prevalent feature of this world to persist. If this world is evidence of a God, then I dont think this world speaks very highly of him. Why does a God that allows suffering to persist deserve to be worshipped? Why does a God that allows this deserve praise? How can anyone argue that God is good and all powerful but allows suffering because he works on his own time schedule? So God acts when he is ready to and we are just supposed to be okay with that? Ill admit that I agree that this world lends evidence to some type of creator. But I see no justification for believing that the creator is the Christian God. Whoever is ultimately responsible for our existence seems to have completely abandoned us for whatever reason. It does not hear and answer our prayers and the suffering of innocent people persists because of this. No good and powerful being would sit and watch while innocent suffer. Having the power to prevent or stop suffering and not doing so is not good.

I think this is exactly the type of world you would see if there is a God who was rejected by his own creation, a creation that said I can do it my own way, who said I don't need God.

God said fine have it your way, if you don't need me I shall remove my presence and left us to our own devices, this would be exactly the sort of world I would expect from sinfull, selfish creatures who were left to rule the world and your picture characterises exactly what I would expect in a world full of hate and selfish desires.

But because God loved us so much he gave us a way out, he came here to experience our pain and suffering and was flogged, beaten, spat on and nailed to a cross and rose from the dead so you might have the chance at redemption, to enter into eternity with our creator.

He paid the wages of your sin with his death, so that we may be washed clean.
Romans 6:23

Edit: The only "blind pitiless indifference" is not the universe but our own, we have to stop blaming our iniquities on everything else.
We have the power to change things, but we do not.
Why do you expect God to step in when we have the power and resources to change this awfull tradgedy?
This is not the world God created, this is the world we created for ourselves.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:I think this is exactly the type of world you would see if there is a God who was rejected by his own creation, a creation that said I can do it my own way, who said I don't need God.

God said fine have it your way, if you don't need me I shall remove my presence and left us to our own devices, this would be exactly the sort of world I would expect from sinfull, selfish creatures who were left to rule the world and your picture characterises exactly what I would expect in a world full of hate and selfish desires.

But because God loved us so much he gave us a way out, he came here to experience our pain and suffering and was flogged, beaten, spat on and nailed to a cross and rose from the dead so you might have the chance at redemption, to enter into eternity with our creator.

He paid the wages of your sin with his death, so that we may be washed clean.
Romans 6:23

Very well said Dan.

MAGsolo, I think it would be to your benefit to read a book which others here on the forum have read and recommend regarding this topic. It's called, ' Is God a Moral Monster?' by Paul Copan.

Here is a short video which may also help satiate your questions:

The Problem of Suffering by Professor John Lennox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmP5WfEiOe0