"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
That is true but not everyone is versed in old Koinine Greek usages and differences btwn spirit and soul - could you share this for those following this thread?PaulSacramento wrote:Spirit and soul are NOT the same thing and I think that is were many of these issues arise.
I don't think we even need to get to the difference in terms of language or use or even how the ancient greeks ( or hebrews for that matter) used the term.B. W. wrote:That is true but not everyone is versed in old Koinine Greek usages and differences btwn spirit and soul - could you share this for those following this thread?PaulSacramento wrote:Spirit and soul are NOT the same thing and I think that is were many of these issues arise.
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Good summation!One thing that we do KNOW ( based on the bible) is that:
The spirit returns to God on our physical death.
The soul CAN be killed.
All living creatures have souls but only humans have a spirit.
The soul is not the same as the spirit.
Thanks, one can see how some branches of Christianity believe that the soul "dies'" when we die ( whether we agree with the doctrine or not) and we can see that over the history that "outside" sources have influenced how we express our understanding of spirit and soul and how the early church fathers did so also.Philip wrote:Good summation!One thing that we do KNOW ( based on the bible) is that:
The spirit returns to God on our physical death.
The soul CAN be killed.
All living creatures have souls but only humans have a spirit.
The soul is not the same as the spirit.
Sounds fine to me, my friend.RickD wrote:I'm gonna have to look into it a little more, before I can let you know what I think.
A good question, that I'm glad you asked. I do not believe that the Adversary and his angels will be annihilated, as Scripture says explicitly at Revelation 20:10 that they (along with the beast and the false prophet) will be tormented forever and ever. Most surprisingly to me it doesn't say the same of unsaved humanity in Revelation (the text in question being Revelation 14:9-11; that is another discussion that could be interesting). To me, the words of Yeshua from Matthew 25:41 come to mind, when He told the accursed ones to depart into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Again, as I believe that angels and spiritual beings ARE inherently immortal, while only humans are made so through the Mashiach (Luke 20:36).In the meantime, I'd like to know if you also believe in the ultimate annihilation of Satan and his angels, too. Or, is annihilation just the ultimate fate of unsaved humanity, in your opinion?
I hear this objection quite often, and while I understand it, I believe it's a misunderstanding. The fact is that there would be no reprieve at all; no peace at all, as the Scripture says (Isaiah 48:22, 57:21). Imagine the scenario like this. You live your whole life in rebellion against G-d, rejecting Him and Christ entirely. You may consider yourself a good person, and live a normal life, but you never deemed G-d important enough to accept. Then one day, you die. In what seems like the very next second, you are risen, alive out of the grave, to find G-d, the Creator of the universe, in all His Glory, ready to judge you as you stand before the throne. You are told your name's not written in the Book of Life, and G-d judges you specifically from a book containing all of your deeds, all of your sins, while you stand before Him with unimaginable fear, embarrassment, shock, shame, sadness, and despair. You're told you're judged to die; you face the ultimate capital punishment. There is no more chance of redemption, no hope, no pleading. You're thrown into the Lake of Fire, where you undergo pain in every way possible, being tormented while being burned alive in the fullest sense (body, soul, and spirit), being for once fully conscious of your sins and now of your hopelessness. With this, you're consumed, and there's nothing. No rest. At no point do you have any sense of the pain or torment stopping, you simply cease to exist, eternally. There is certainly no peace or rest involved.One thing that I keep coming back to with annihilation, is that the unsaved would die, and go to hell to be tormented. Then they would face judgment, and actually get a reprieve from their torment, by being annihilated. That just doesn't make sense to me.
Okay, I'm glad to understand now. And I would agree. The argument that a "finite" number sins don't warrant an infinite punishment is extremely flawed, and show a misunderstanding of exactly what sin is, and Who G-d Is.B. W. wrote:First let me clarify, Christian Annihilationist are saved and Heaven bound. I am not saying they are not. Secondly, it is a question of sin – the depths of sin. This something most people do not ponder. Sin is defined only as temporal acts. Such a view tries to say, these temporal acts do not fit the criteria of eternal recompense. Likewise, if sin is only temporal acts, then annihilation does not fit the criteria for non-being for finite (temporal) sins either.
Very good insight. Many, including myself, haven't thought of it in such a way. I agree completely.Sin is not defined only as temporal acts, such as stealing, lying, etc & etc, theses are the fruits of sin. Real sin is missing the mark, twisting and warping truth so as to justify one's fruits, sin involves knowingly or unknowingly manipulating God’s goodness, his attributes, in order to avoid consequences, etc, Sin is within the heart. It is an inner attitude that actually twists, manipulates, and games the system (God’s system) for a lack of better terminology.
Again, I must say I agree with you completely. Anyone who's a proponent of annihilationism and tries to use arguments about the temporality or finite nature of sin is in serious error, especially those who try to judge G-d's Judgement.This attitude is clever and always seeks to circumvent consequences. John wrote for the Believers in 1 John 1:8, 9c that there is still within us that need to be dealt with and cleansed from. This warping nature that seeks to pit God’s standards of character against them themselves is something we need to recognize as well. Christian do – do this in theology studies. All I am saying, is simply too ponder the depths of sin: how it twist and warps and games the system to get out of a jam. This sin is not temporal at all. How do people seek to justify sin and how do they try to avoid its eternal consequences thru appeals to human sympathy? What do you call this and evidence of?
I'm very glad to hear that, brother, and I can say the same for you, in that you're my brother in the Messiah and you've written things that've helped me and taught me as well. I'll honestly take your thoughts and views seriously, and for all, I think pondering the depths of sin is important, for many reasons.And cheezerrox, please don't take me wrong. I am not against you. You are a brother in Christ. Often you write on these forums things that have helped me
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I do remember you saying this before, and I have to say that I still disagree. I do believe there's a difference between Gey-Hinnom/the Lake of Fire and Sh'ol/Ades. Indeed, while I believe one (the former) is reserved for the future, and the other (the latter) is current, I don't believe they are both Hell, at least not in the way its used today. I believe only the Lake of Fire is Hell.B. W. wrote:Recall I said;
There is a misconception which comes from our English word definitions translated as hell and the euphemism used to describe hell.
1-There is a Hell called the Lake of Fire which is future
2- There is a hell called Hades, Sheol, the pit, the grave… which is current
We label all these the same - Hell.
I agree that Daniel 12:2 deals with the Lake of Fire, and I have to admit, that verse from Isaiah certainly does seem to support your view very well. However, for one, I can't say a single verse could sway me, and for two, there are other interpretations of this verse that I've seen, such as the Artscroll translation where it's rendered, "They will be gathered together in a gathering, a captive in a dungeon, and they will be imprisoned in a prison; and [their sins] of many days will be recalled." I'm not familiar with the original Hebrew of the verse, or with the Septuagint's rendering, but with these two points I must say that while I'll keep it in mind, I can't say it convinces me quite yet. Also, I agree that the judgement at Gey-Hinnom involves eternity in a real place with real eternal everlasting recompense involved.Daniel 12:2, deals with the Lake of Fire when the human spirit, is rejoined to a body. This is the last step. It is the final commuting of a prior sentence. The current Hell is like a holding center (Isaiah 24:22 NKJV). The Future Lake of Fire involves eternity in a real place with real eternal everlasting recompense involved. Revelation 20:10, 14, 15 mentions the nature of the torment in this Lake is forever and ever – not temporary.
A very good point. For one, yes, the analogy was not the best, and in no way proves the points of annihilationism. And also, you have a good point regarding Revelation 21:4. You make sense, and yet, that verse along with Isaiah 66:24 seem to say differently. Also, if that's true, that those who undergo the second death are entirely separated from G-d and those with Him (2 Thessalonians 1:9), then why does Revelation 14:10 say that the torment that they'll face will be in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb?There is nothing in the analogy for simple disgrace and contempt you used about Hitler to prove the points of annihilationism. Today, many people don’t even know who Hitler is and was, or even care. Do you hold with the same contempt and disgrace for Pharaoh as Hitler? Note that Rev 21:4 dismisses the notion that people in heaven will hold those within the Lake in everlasting memory of everlasting disgrace and contempt. How could they and retain no more ill feelings of pain over former things passed away?
This is the difference of everlasting punishment with everlasting punishing. Just as the "eternal judgment" spoken of in Hebrews 6:2 isn't taken to mean "eternal judging," I likewise don't take the everlasting punishment spoken of by Yeshua in Matthew 25:46 as everlasting punishment. Now, you may make the argument that if the punishment spoken of isn't everlasting, than neither can be the life spoken of, but I would disagree. Life is a continuation, but the death that Gey-Hinnom is spoken of as isn't. The judgment made, the sentence, the punishment that they will face, will stand eternally, and as it's written, "The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever" just as it will for the woman Bavel (Revelation 19:3), so will they be burned up; consumed like the woman Bavel (Revelation 18:8).How can you punish only a memory forever and ever? You cannot punish nothing forever. The bible does not speak of those in memoriam being held in everlasting mental memory of contempt. As for those that shine in everlasting life with God, then, those in eternal shame / abhorrence are likewise in these states as long as those who have everlasting life with God. That is far more frightening , and far more compelling to avoid at all cost than selling the idea that the wicked find peace through annihilationism so that a memoriam is what is punished (Matthew 25:46c).
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I knew this passage would come up. I would disagree with you. Indeed, it says that they will be tormented day and night. And it also says that the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever. But, note, it does not confuse the two; it does not say that they will be tormented forever and ever. Yet, it does about Satan, the beast, and the false prophet at Revelation 20:10, which I believe is significant, as it's written by the same author.Philip wrote:In Revelation 14, we read: "9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”" This shows that such worshipers of the beast will endure torment that goes on "forever and ever."
So God, who created an order of beings (angels) that Scripture tells us are of a higher order than man, and yet God will nonetheless punish them FOREVER. Note that the "smoke" goes up "forever and ever" - smoke is a result of something being consumed by fire. If they simply ceased to exist, why would the smoke continue? And if God would punish ANY being FOREVER, doesn't that suggest that He well "might" do the very same for men who die in their sins?
A good point. One needs to keep in mind Hebraic philosophy when reading the Scriptures, where people exist as triune beings (resembling the Triune G-d), consisting of body, soul, and spirit. A misunderstanding of this, or the false belief that the Old Testament contains Hebraic thinking while the New Testament is written from a Greek philisophical point of view (while the languages they were written in are different, the New Testament was still written by practicing Jews living in a Jewish community).PaulSacramento wrote:Spirit and soul are NOT the same thing and I think that is were many of these issues arise.
Cheezerrox, I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner about your Daniel 12:2 post. I typed up a long response on my iPod, and it got deleted. My iPod has been acting up a lot lately.RickD wrote:
I'm gonna have to look into it a little more, before I can let you know what I think.
I can tell you're from New Joisey. Nobody from any other state, goes on vacation "at the shore".Sorry I couldn't get back to you guys sooner. Actually on vacation at the shore at the moment. This discussion's been on my mind, though, and I hope to bring some clarity and new thoughts to the subject, as well as learn more from you guys.
It's no problem at all, my friend. I'm sorry to hear about that mess up with your iPod, that's aggravating.RickD wrote:Cheezerrox, I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner about your Daniel 12:2 post. I typed up a long response on my iPod, and it got deleted. My iPod has been acting up a lot lately.
The simplest answer I have for you in regards to your Daniel 12:2 interpretation, is that B.W.'s explanation pretty much sums up my feelings, as well.
Lol! Yeah, there's not too much else over here up in the Garden State. Might as well make use of the one thing anyone else comes here for.I can tell you're from New Joisey. Nobody from any other state, goes on vacation "at the shore".
Is it true what they say, that New Jersey is the "armpit" of New York?Lol! Yeah, there's not too much else over here up in the Garden State. Might as well make use of the one thing anyone else comes here for.
Lol, yes, to a sad extent. We basically just share the filth with New York. That's North Jersey, though, but I live close to Philadelphia.RickD wrote:Is it true what they say, that New Jersey is the "armpit" of New York?
This raises an important question for me personally. Would this mean that, according to the scriptures, eternal rest is gained (or regained; don't really know the details) when one joins with God in heaven?cheezerrox wrote:RickD wrote:Imagine the scenario like this. You live your whole life in rebellion against G-d, rejecting Him and Christ entirely. You may consider yourself a good person, and live a normal life, but you never deemed G-d important enough to accept. Then one day, you die. In what seems like the very next second, you are risen, alive out of the grave, to find G-d, the Creator of the universe, in all His Glory, ready to judge you as you stand before the throne. You are told your name's not written in the Book of Life, and G-d judges you specifically from a book containing all of your deeds, all of your sins, while you stand before Him with unimaginable fear, embarrassment, shock, shame, sadness, and despair. You're told you're judged to die; you face the ultimate capital punishment. There is no more chance of redemption, no hope, no pleading. You're thrown into the Lake of Fire, where you undergo pain in every way possible, being tormented while being burned alive in the fullest sense (body, soul, and spirit), being for once fully conscious of your sins and now of your hopelessness. With this, you're consumed, and there's nothing. No rest. At no point do you have any sense of the pain or torment stopping, you simply cease to exist, eternally. There is certainly no peace or rest involved.One thing that I keep coming back to with annihilation, is that the unsaved would die, and go to hell to be tormented. Then they would face judgment, and actually get a reprieve from their torment, by being annihilated. That just doesn't make sense to me.
Yes, that's about right - if you trust in Jesus and what he did to make that possible.plouiswork wrote:It's been quite interesting to me, reading this thread, that nonexperience can be seen as too good or too bad a fate depending on who you ask. I wonder if perhaps there's a subtle, but important, distinction between peace (RIP) and annihilation. One perhaps by whether the soul is or isn't destroyed.
This raises an important question for me personally. Would this mean that, according to the scriptures, eternal rest is gained (or regained; don't really know the details) when one joins with God in heaven?cheezerrox wrote:RickD wrote:Imagine the scenario like this. You live your whole life in rebellion against G-d, rejecting Him and Christ entirely. You may consider yourself a good person, and live a normal life, but you never deemed G-d important enough to accept. Then one day, you die. In what seems like the very next second, you are risen, alive out of the grave, to find G-d, the Creator of the universe, in all His Glory, ready to judge you as you stand before the throne. You are told your name's not written in the Book of Life, and G-d judges you specifically from a book containing all of your deeds, all of your sins, while you stand before Him with unimaginable fear, embarrassment, shock, shame, sadness, and despair. You're told you're judged to die; you face the ultimate capital punishment. There is no more chance of redemption, no hope, no pleading. You're thrown into the Lake of Fire, where you undergo pain in every way possible, being tormented while being burned alive in the fullest sense (body, soul, and spirit), being for once fully conscious of your sins and now of your hopelessness. With this, you're consumed, and there's nothing. No rest. At no point do you have any sense of the pain or torment stopping, you simply cease to exist, eternally. There is certainly no peace or rest involved.One thing that I keep coming back to with annihilation, is that the unsaved would die, and go to hell to be tormented. Then they would face judgment, and actually get a reprieve from their torment, by being annihilated. That just doesn't make sense to me.