Evidence for God from Science

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Beanybag wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
So tell me this then Beany, do you believe that the Christian God exists, yes or no.

Whatever your answer is is your belief, since your an atheist that would be your belief as an atheist hence giving your atheism a belief.

Atheism may not have specific beliefs but rather it is a world view made up of the individuals beliefs.

Dan

Do I hold the belief that the Christian God exists? No. Now ask me if I hold the belief that the Christian God does NOT exist. The answer is also no. Do I know if the Christian god exists or doesn't exist, or can I? I'd say no. Does the Christian god exist? I don't know.

As you can see, my atheism is not a belief at all. Try as you might, you don't know my beliefs better than I do. You're playing word games with the fact that languages have trouble expressing lack of something or non-concepts. My atheism is an answer to the question: Do you believe in any god? No, I do not.

So, in short, you are all missing MY point and are incorrect.

Your "Lack of belief in gods" can be interpreted to mean that you "believe there are no gods."

Not without putting words into my mouth.

And the word games continue, whatever you say is still a belief no matter what and those beliefs make up your world view.

I am not trying to to say I know your beliefs, I am saying you have beliefs, which is your world view, which you can call whatever you want, but it makes you no different from the next person.

Dan

I don't think he's engaging in word games. I see no reason to say that not believing that something exists is the same as believing it doesn't exist. I, for instance, do not believe in extra-terrestrials as we generally talk about them. Still, that doesn't mean that I have a positive belief that they don't exist. Since when must everyone take a side on the truth or falsity of every proposition presented to them?

Icthus wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Beanybag wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
So tell me this then Beany, do you believe that the Christian God exists, yes or no.

Whatever your answer is is your belief, since your an atheist that would be your belief as an atheist hence giving your atheism a belief.

Atheism may not have specific beliefs but rather it is a world view made up of the individuals beliefs.

Dan

Do I hold the belief that the Christian God exists? No. Now ask me if I hold the belief that the Christian God does NOT exist. The answer is also no. Do I know if the Christian god exists or doesn't exist, or can I? I'd say no. Does the Christian god exist? I don't know.

As you can see, my atheism is not a belief at all. Try as you might, you don't know my beliefs better than I do. You're playing word games with the fact that languages have trouble expressing lack of something or non-concepts. My atheism is an answer to the question: Do you believe in any god? No, I do not.

So, in short, you are all missing MY point and are incorrect.

Your "Lack of belief in gods" can be interpreted to mean that you "believe there are no gods."

Not without putting words into my mouth.

And the word games continue, whatever you say is still a belief no matter what and those beliefs make up your world view.

I am not trying to to say I know your beliefs, I am saying you have beliefs, which is your world view, which you can call whatever you want, but it makes you no different from the next person.

Dan

I don't think he's engaging in word games. I see no reason to say that not believing that something exists is the same as believing it doesn't exist. I, for instance, do not believe in extra-terrestrials as we generally talk about them. Still, that doesn't mean that I have a positive belief that they don't exist. Since when must everyone take a side on the truth or falsity of every proposition presented to them?

I am not saying they have to make a positive affirmation, but they still require belief whatever form it takes.


Even not knowing is a belief, a belief that you do not know.

Icthus, I'm a little tired, so I'm not getting what you said here:

I see no reason to say that not believing that something exists is the same as believing it doesn't exist. I, for instance, do not believe in extra-terrestrials as we generally talk about them. Still, that doesn't mean that I have a positive belief that they don't exist.

Not believing God exists, is not the same as believing God doesn't exist? If I don't believe aliens exist, doesn't that mean I have a belief that aliens don't exist?

Icthus wrote:I see the distinction you are drawing, Beany, but, and I apologize for asking again, in what way is agnostic atheism different from simple agnosticism?

Agnosticism answers a different question. If pressed, many atheists will admit to being agnostic and vice versa.

To the question: Do you believe in any gods? That answers a/theism.

To the question: Do/can you know if there is any gods? That answers a/gnosticism.

FlawedIntellect wrote:You are trying to say that "I don't know" isn't a belief.

The only way I can really think of to describe your position is confusion. You don't believe in something, but you aren't sure about the lack of something either. This is confusion. Are you basically saying that you don't know what to believe and nothing will compel you? Then apparently you've chosen to take a stance of permanent confusion. Of course, it is up for debate as to whether or not uncertainty = confusion.

It's not confusion, I'm very clear as to what I believe. I'm uncertain, skeptical. I am not saying that when I say: "I don't know" that I don't believe that I don't know. But, I lack a belief in any gods. That much is true.

RickD wrote:Not believing God exists, is not the same as believing God doesn't exist? If I don't believe aliens exist, doesn't that mean I have a belief that aliens don't exist?

It seems confusing. Some times the phrases have the same meaning, sometimes not. It depends on speaker and context. Change the example and the distinction is clearer.
Suppose I flip a coin.
Do you believe it is not heads? [I.e., tails? - wouldn't think so.]
Do you not believe it is heads? [I.e., heads or tails, you don't know which.]

That's why i prefer atheism for a belief there is no god(s); agnosticism for don't know. Of course there is still the "don't know but pretty sure there isn't" and other variations.

@ beany
saying i lack a belief in any gods is saying that you don't believe in any gods. what is it with people these days they're so confused that they don't even understand their own beliefs. this is why we need God because how can we put belief in ourselves when we can so easily lie to ourselves. Romans 1: 22-25. i would say God doesn't want you to be confused with your beliefs and we all want the truth about our existence in our lives so seek honestly and God will show you Matthew 7: 7-8 the choice is yours.

RickD wrote:Icthus, I'm a little tired, so I'm not getting what you said here:

I see no reason to say that not believing that something exists is the same as believing it doesn't exist. I, for instance, do not believe in extra-terrestrials as we generally talk about them. Still, that doesn't mean that I have a positive belief that they don't exist.

Not believing God exists, is not the same as believing God doesn't exist? If I don't believe aliens exist, doesn't that mean I have a belief that aliens don't exist?

Consider the position of an agnostic. As one who doesn't know if there is a god, an agnostic cannot be said to believe that God exists or else he/she wouldn't be an agnostic. That doesn't mean that they have a believe that God doesn't exist either since that would make them an atheist of the strong variety.

Ok there's a common disagreement with my logic of alien life needing to exist from an atheist point of view. Maybe I'm not explaining my theory well enough or maybe not understanding your counter arguements enough because I still feel absolutely convinced that logically they haVE to believe in life elsewhere. There are billions and billions of planets. If Earth is the only place where life can sustain, the only place life can adapt and grow then that shows that this is the perfect climate and the only atmosphere for life. And again I'm talking an odds game here but those kind of odds of that only occuring once in the billions and billions of planet would have to point to Intelligent Design.

On the roaches being better equiped to survive than us. Yes I agree some animals have proved intelligence isn't their path. But there are lots of different branches of evolution and of course there'll animals in the universe that are way better evolved than us but not as intelligent. I'm thinking if we can travel to the moon, then something far more intelligent than us could be capable of stuff we couldn't even dream of. So we could be talking about the closest 100 planets here, and many may (and probably do (if Atheism is correct)) have life on them. And at least one species on one of those planets with life has been around evolving a lot longer than us with their evolutionary course being to become gradually more intelligent and self-aware.

Again, assuming Atheism is correct and assuming my theory of life being all over the universe in accordance to Atheism is correct, I doubt that we're the only species in it's existance to toy with the method of space travel. Again it becomes a game of odds.

mickaneso wrote:Ok there's a common disagreement with my logic of alien life needing to exist from an atheist point of view. Maybe I'm not explaining my theory well enough or maybe not understanding your counter arguements enough because I still feel absolutely convinced that logically they haVE to believe in life elsewhere. There are billions and billions of planets. If Earth is the only place where life can sustain, the only place life can adapt and grow then that shows that this is the perfect climate and the only atmosphere for life. And again I'm talking an odds game here but those kind of odds of that only occuring once in the billions and billions of planet would have to point to Intelligent Design.

One possible objection to this claim would be that Earth does not have to be the only planet capable of sustaining life in order to be the only one that does. If, for instance, the generation of life is as extraordinarily difficult as many ID proponents believe, it may very well be an off chance that life arose anywhere in the universe at all. An atheist doesn't have to believe that life must be easy to generate.

The moment you believe in something ( be it the act of believing or that act of lacking belief) you are believing in a certain way.
Truly, you can word it anyway you want but it doesn't change much.
One can say it is dark because it is dark or because there is absence of light, either way doesn't change that it is dark.

PaulSacramento wrote:The moment you believe in something ( be it the act of believing or that act of lacking belief) you are believing in a certain way.
Truly, you can word it anyway you want but it doesn't change much.
One can say it is dark because it is dark or because there is absence of light, either way doesn't change that it is dark.

You're making a binary position out of a non-binary problem.

And you are arguing semantics.

PaulSacramento wrote:And you are arguing semantics.

Only because it's necessary with our limited language in this area. I am not saying what people think I am saying. Nothing is not something. If I believe there is nothing versus something that doesn't make it something. The 'act' of lacking belief, or referring to it as so, does not then make it belief. You ask me if it's light or dark and I tell you that I can't even see. Have I answered the question?

Many are pretending that I have a coherent 'world view' (whatever that means) and that if I don't believe in God, I have presupposed there isn't a god. That isn't so. I do not have an explanation for my 'world view' as I see it, and I leave many questions unanswered. I don't try to answer these questions until I feel confident that the answer is correct. I have no working explanation for the whole of the world and I don't seek to fill that void with insufficient explanations. You will find many atheists and most agnostics who are the same.

Beanybag wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:And you are arguing semantics.

Only because it's necessary with our limited language in this area. I am not saying what people think I am saying. Nothing is not something. If I believe there is nothing versus something that doesn't make it something. The 'act' of lacking belief, or referring to it as so, does not then make it belief. You ask me if it's light or dark and I tell you that I can't even see. Have I answered the question?

Many are pretending that I have a coherent 'world view' (whatever that means) and that if I don't believe in God, I have presupposed there isn't a god. That isn't so. I do not have an explanation for my 'world view' as I see it, and I leave many questions unanswered. I don't try to answer these questions until I feel confident that the answer is correct. I have no working explanation for the whole of the world and I don't seek to fill that void with insufficient explanations. You will find many atheists and most agnostics who are the same.

You do realize that the moment to BELIEVE something you are doing just that, believing.
be·lief
   [bih-leef] Show IPA
noun
1.
something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.

World English Dictionary
belief (bɪˈliːf)

— n
1. a principle, proposition, idea, etc, accepted as true
2. opinion; conviction
3. religious faith
4. trust or confidence, as in a person or a person's abilities, probity, etc

Beanybag wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:And you are arguing semantics.

Only because it's necessary with our limited language in this area. I am not saying what people think I am saying. Nothing is not something. If I believe there is nothing versus something that doesn't make it something. The 'act' of lacking belief, or referring to it as so, does not then make it belief. You ask me if it's light or dark and I tell you that I can't even see. Have I answered the question?

Many are pretending that I have a coherent 'world view' (whatever that means) and that if I don't believe in God, I have presupposed there isn't a god. That isn't so. I do not have an explanation for my 'world view' as I see it, and I leave many questions unanswered. I don't try to answer these questions until I feel confident that the answer is correct. I have no working explanation for the whole of the world and I don't seek to fill that void with insufficient explanations. You will find many atheists and most agnostics who are the same.

Actually the question is much simpler than that and will invariably lead to a belief system. At the most basic level one either believes in an intelligent mind or mindless chance as a first cause. If there is a 3rd option I'd love to hear it but in the absence of that, the former is supported by rationality while the latter results in infinite regress and a violation of the law of non-contradiction. Take your pick.