Evidence for God from Science

MAGSolo wrote:

narnia4 wrote:When I make claims, especially controversial claims, I try to research everything thoroughly. The idea that Mother Theresa died an atheist is pure conjecture without support, and in fact the evidence is strongly against it. What's called the "dark night of the soul" as bippy mentioned, is what many believe was happening with her throughout much of her life.

You also have to assume that the Catholic Church is made up of nothing but hypocrites who want to cover up and construct a Saint. I think rational people know better and understand that there's been thorough, honest investigations into all of this. If Catholics who have investigated the matter much more than the media at large or myself thought that Theresa was an atheist, would she be on the road to Sainthood? Catholics take Canonization seriously, you'd think skeptics would grant them that.

So all in all, I don't think there's a leg to stand on with this particular claim.

It doesnt really matter what people "believe" she was going through when she explained in her letters precisely what she was going through; a loss of faith. You clearly just have no idea what you are talking about

Jesus has a very special love for you. [But] as for me — The silence and the emptiness is so great — that I look and do not see, — Listen and do not hear.

Darkness is such that I really do not see-neither with my mind nor with my reason-the place of God in my soul is blank-There is no God in me

Have you actually studied her letters? As bippy said, that's a classic example of spiritual dryness or dark night of the soul, and its part of the reason why they want to make her a saint in the first place! You obviously grabbed those straight off wikipedia

Besides, where do those two quotes imply atheism?

Actually, I grabbed them from the book, which I own and have actually read.

MAGSolo wrote:Actually, I grabbed them from the book, which I own and have actually read.

So then you would know that she never became an atheist or agnostic, like ALL people she had her doubts and moments of questioning.

Your better off making an argument based on the amount of evil God allows. Note, this won't necessarily disprove God's existence but rather put one off a God who allows evil to exist to the extent that it does.

To argue as you do that evil is incompatible with a good and loving God is old. In acknowledging evil exists above and beyond us, you indirectly acknowledge an absolute good. Who or what is this concept of good/bad grounded in?

Furthermore, it is not clear a good and loving God does not have good reason for allowing evil, pain and suffering if only for a time. You need to be able to prove a good and loving God could have no reason before this age old argument even begins to gain traction. And if that were possible, it would still die upon a sword it can not wield - the Sword that an ultimate Good really does exist such that something can be an absolute evil.

Oops, just responded to see that it was already well responded to. Nevermind.

MAGSolo wrote:Actually, I grabbed them from the book, which I own and have actually read.

Mag if you want to fully understand the Dark Night of the Soul you need to study ancient Christian literature such as the dark night of the soul by Saint John of the Cross. The dark night is the ultimate test of true Faith, not a lack of it. In fact if you research the history of people that have suffered through it, a good number of them experienced demonic attacks or harressment by dark force. This is not uncommon when going through the test.
Despite what mother teresa went through she never stopped praying, she never stopped going to confession and she never stopped doing Gods work by caring for the sick, poor, old and dying.

Most Christians are so used to receiving spiritual consolations and spiritual joys in this life. When you are in the Dark night you receive none of this. It is where you think your faith is at it's weakest or leaving you, but in reality it's bigger than you can possibly imagine. When people first go through it, it's one of the horrible and darkest moments of their life. This is why a spiritual director is needed. In the bible it says that faith isn't determined by your feelings, the dark night takes that verse and puts it on steroids. Mother Teresa never gave in to these thoughts and this is why the catholic church wants to make her a saint. She is not there yet as you need to have 2 verified miracles that perform by God in connection to her name. The catholic Church is very stringent on what they determine as miracles, to the point that they have used atheists doctors and scientists to disprove any naturalistic explanations .
Dont quote me on this but I believe Mother Teresa might have one miracle allready.

The closer we come to God, the more we are tempted and attacked by those that want us away from Gods, that want to show God how we do NOT deserve His Grace and Love.

PaulSacramento wrote:The closer we come to God, the more we are tempted and attacked by those that want us away from Gods, that want to show God how we do NOT deserve His Grace and Love.

Correct Paul , they will attack you in a myriad of ways such as what you said above, or by convincing you that he doesn't exist or that your going to hell and nothing can change it. The dark night is where the spiritual training wheels have come off .

Some people will ask why would a loving God allow some to go through this, but he allowed Satan to do his best against Job and when it was over God blessed Job in ways that he could never imagine.
It is a scary ordeal for sure. From what I hear she did come out of it right before her death.
How she functioned for 60 years in this hell of a feeling is beyond me. The good lord must have been sustaining her through it somehow.

bippy123 wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:Actually, I grabbed them from the book, which I own and have actually read.

Mag if you want to fully understand the Dark Night of the Soul you need to study ancient Christian literature such as the dark night of the soul by Saint John of the Cross. The dark night is the ultimate test of true Faith, not a lack of it. In fact if you research the history of people that have suffered through it, a good number of them experienced demonic attacks or harressment by dark force. This is not uncommon when going through the test.
Despite what mother teresa went through she never stopped praying, she never stopped going to confession and she never stopped doing Gods work by caring for the sick, poor, old and dying.

Most Christians are so used to receiving spiritual consolations and spiritual joys in this life. When you are in the Dark night you receive none of this. It is where you think your faith is at it's weakest or leaving you, but in reality it's bigger than you can possibly imagine. When people first go through it, it's one of the horrible and darkest moments of their life. This is why a spiritual director is needed. In the bible it says that faith isn't determined by your feelings, the dark night takes that verse and puts it on steroids. Mother Teresa never gave in to these thoughts and this is why the catholic church wants to make her a saint. She is not there yet as you need to have 2 verified miracles that perform by God in connection to her name. The catholic Church is very stringent on what they determine as miracles, to the point that they have used atheists doctors and scientists to disprove any naturalistic explanations .
Dont quote me on this but I believe Mother Teresa might have one miracle allready.

Bippy, just wondering what book do you recommend which deals with the topic of the dark night of the soul? Or if anyone else has recommendations... interested to read up more on this.

Kurieuo wrote:

bippy123 wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:Actually, I grabbed them from the book, which I own and have actually read.

Mag if you want to fully understand the Dark Night of the Soul you need to study ancient Christian literature such as the dark night of the soul by Saint John of the Cross. The dark night is the ultimate test of true Faith, not a lack of it. In fact if you research the history of people that have suffered through it, a good number of them experienced demonic attacks or harressment by dark force. This is not uncommon when going through the test.
Despite what mother teresa went through she never stopped praying, she never stopped going to confession and she never stopped doing Gods work by caring for the sick, poor, old and dying.

Most Christians are so used to receiving spiritual consolations and spiritual joys in this life. When you are in the Dark night you receive none of this. It is where you think your faith is at it's weakest or leaving you, but in reality it's bigger than you can possibly imagine. When people first go through it, it's one of the horrible and darkest moments of their life. This is why a spiritual director is needed. In the bible it says that faith isn't determined by your feelings, the dark night takes that verse and puts it on steroids. Mother Teresa never gave in to these thoughts and this is why the catholic church wants to make her a saint. She is not there yet as you need to have 2 verified miracles that perform by God in connection to her name. The catholic Church is very stringent on what they determine as miracles, to the point that they have used atheists doctors and scientists to disprove any naturalistic explanations .
Dont quote me on this but I believe Mother Teresa might have one miracle allready.

Bippy, just wondering what book do you recommend which deals with the topic of the dark night of the soul? Or if anyone else has recommendations... interested to read up more on this.

Hey buddy, here are a few, they are both very difficult reads though.
Saint Teresa of Avila 
The interior castle

Saint John of the cross
The dark night of the soul

He was the first one who coined the term . I have read parts of the book and it's the one most people recommend.

You will be surprised at how many of the saints have gone through it. Martin Luther also had a bout with it.

You will get an idea of how hellish of an experience it will feel like, but nothing comes close to going through the experience itself, and if the person going through it doesn't have a good spiritual counselor they could be in big trouble . It's a feeling that makes death look like a walk in the park .

Also the person that's going through the dark night is vulnerable to demonic attacks (demonic harassment not possession).
I'm my next post I will post an article about a holywoman's experience during her dark night.
Then you will get an idea of how truely horrible and agonizing this experience is, and you will also see how God even allows it to get worse in order to totally dumbfound and confuse Satan and make that woman's faith invincible and immune to future demonic attacks.

http://www.fortea.us/english/teologicos/latentacion.htm

 

 

The demoniacal temptation of the dark night

What follows is a fragment from the work "Decenarium of the Holy Spirit" by the mystic Javiera del Valle, a holy woman from the southwestern part of Spain (Extremadura), who died in 1930. Her words on this theme are as clear as they are deep: When a soul has determined to not want anything other than follow its beloved Redeemer, and fixes its gaze with the only goal of acting for Him, and even, if it were possible, to do that which it has seen that the adorable Redeemer has done and suffered for us, then Satan, in fury, prepares a great battle and employs all its infernal army in it.

(…)Satan tries to tear out the three theological virtues from our lives. But where his special target is to destroy our faith, because, once he has achieved this, it is very easy to get the other two; because faith is the foundation on which the whole spiritual structure is built and this is what the devil wants and desires and strives to destroy. God, then, remains silent; He does not impede this attempt, but rather He even prepares the way so that the battle be cruder still.
And God has his own goals, because he prepares all in this way in order to leave the devil confounded, fooled and routed in the most complete defeat and have us come away victorious from the battle remaining invincible in the future.
When Satan nears the fight, the first thing we miss is the clear and beautiful light that God had given us, in order to know the truth. The school [of the Holy Spirit] closes; it seems that we have lost memory and reason, due to the strength of the pain and sentiment which reigns in the soul.
Poor soul! It wants to look for God, but does not know how. It wants to call, but cannot articulate a word. Everything is forgotten; with such profound pain, it feels alone, without any company. What can I compare this state with? I find nothing comparable, if not those summer nights in which such strong and horrible storms rise suddenly, in the absolute darkness of which nothing can be seen, just lightning which frightens, thunder which leaves one trembling, hurricane winds which remind one of Gods justice at the end of the world, hailstones which seem to want to destroy everything.
I find nothing to compare it to: alone, without its God, the soul perceives the assault of a furious army which screams that the soul has been deceived, that there is no God; and this army surrounds the soul from all sides, full of rhetoric which preaches constantly to the soul, without the soul wanting it, but not being left alone a moment, with such strong and violent reasons, of such a force that would convince the soul that there is no God, "bigmouthing" horribly, that there is no such thing as the God the soul is searching for, and with a power over the faculties of the soul so as not to be able to reason or to believe anything else but that which, by force and more than force, they wish to make the soul understand and believe only that which they say, and not to believe anything else. (…) In this immense and almost infinite pain, there in the distance and as something which one dreamed about and doesn't know what he dreamed, one remembers the Church and the love that we should have for Her, and this memory, just as when one has lost consciousness and recovering consciousness, wants to speak and stumbles over the words, thus the soul, without voice and stuttering, manages to say: I unite myself with all the beliefs of my mother the Church and I don't want to believe anything else. And not being able to say more, nor speak, nor understand, I spent months and months until two years passed. I was 18 years old when this happened to me, and when I suffered and cried without consolation the loss of my faith, suddenly a clear and beautiful day dawned for me. And so, I having seen myself in a state in which I was placed, saw and felt myself taken out of it.

As you can see, there is nothing that a person can put into words that will come even close to describing this experience. The spiritual attacks are round the clock. This is when Satan believes he has that soul in the bag. You cry and cry to the lord constantly to take you out of this state. The most important thing a person should do when in this state is to be totally obedient to the redeemer, our lord and savior Jesus Christ.

Mother Teresa went through this for 60 years but despite this was totally obedient to God and the charity work that he wanted her to do. Can you imagine the faith it took to get up every day , early in the morning and spend all your day consoling and loving the dying and outcast of the caste system they had in India.
She was running on empty for 60 years yet the lord got her through.

I have to say that I have gone through this, and am still slowly but surely pulling through it, with God's help I'm pretty sure. But just the fact that so many people have been through this horrifying experience at least consoles me a little bit. Thanks for posting the links and reading suggestions! I have such a deep respect for Mother Teresa, even more so than I did before. What an incredible woman!

inlovewiththe44 wrote:I have to say that I have gone through this, and am still slowly but surely pulling through it, with God's help I'm pretty sure. But just the fact that so many people have been through this horrifying experience at least consoles me a little bit. Thanks for posting the links and reading suggestions! I have such a deep respect for Mother Teresa, even more so than I did before. What an incredible woman!

Mother Teresa originally wanted the church to destroy the notes she had with her spiritual director, but the church said NO WAY.
You can now see why the church said no way now. The fact that the church has released these notes has helped so many people get through their dark night nights. And your right, I also had a deep respect for her before I knew she went through this. Now my respect for her has gone through the roof.

Trust me your not alone going through this and your not the only one pulling through it:)
If you ever need to talk just shoot me a pm. YOu have a brother in Christ:)
This is not a short experience on the average for most and it takes time, but once you do get through it,you will fear almost nothing.
Glad to see your starting to pull through this also

Our Lord did not stop His Own suffering but suffered with Us, God doesn't remove suffering but suffers along side Us, giving Us the strength we need.