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Re: How do you know the Bible is inspired?
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:29 pm
by dellsOfBittersweet
Please guys, both these links badly misrepresent what the Catholic Church has always taught in regards to salvation. The authors of this site have an axe to grind with the current leadership of the church and it's debatable whether Catholic is an accurate description for them, since they don't seem to accept the authority of the Pope. If you guys need to discuss church teaching, please quote church documents, which can easily be found at Vatican.va
Re: How do you know the Bible is inspired?
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:47 am
by PaulSacramento
dellsOfBittersweet wrote:PaulSacramento wrote: No one can tell you or prove to you that the Bible is inspired
If it can't be proved that the Bible is inspired, how I am to have certain faith in something that is uncertain?
Look at it from another angle. Imagine a person living in a country that has both Muslims and Christians living in it. This person in considering joining one of the two religions, and sees two religions that both claim to have the only inspired writings of God. If there is no infallible authority that can determine which books are inspired and which aren't, how can this person decide which religion is true, and have certainty that he is correct?
A valid question.
No one can prove to me that my wife loves me, but I know she does and no one can prove to my wife that I love her, but I know I do and she knows I do.
There was no way to prove that the earth travelled around the sun, and there was more evidence to prove it was the sun that moved, yet Galileo and other before him believed it did.
Personally I do NOT believe that ALL the bible is inspired by God in the sense that God wrote it through the hands of Man.
I believe the bible to be God's word in Human words and that there are parts that are "divinely inspired", namely the parts that state as such ( Revelation for example), I believe that the various writers were inspired BY God to write ABOUT what they say.
With this view I hold the bible in highest regards, above any other book BUT I still take it for what it is and not for what anyone else tells me it is.
I have read the bible and I have read the Koran and a few other "holy books" and only in the bible do I find the "inspiration of God".
Re: How do you know the Bible is inspired?
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:49 am
by PaulSacramento
That view, that there is no salvation outside the catholic church, was an old one and has since been "removed" BUT it was a "fact of the times" at one time.
The official RCC website is:
http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm
Re: How do you know the Bible is inspired?
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:59 am
by B. W.
dellsOfBittersweet wrote:On what authority do we know that the Bible is inspired? The Bible itself doesn't directly say so, so it's inspiration and inerrancy must rest on the statement of some other authority. What authority?
You mean the Pope???
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Re: How do you know the Bible is inspired?
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:19 pm
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
dellsOfBittersweet wrote:Please guys, both these links badly misrepresent what the Catholic Church has always taught in regards to salvation.
If you have a copy of
Catechism of the Catholic Church, look up article #846 which quite clearly states that a Christian outside of the RCC and a Catholic Christian who does not perservere in the Church, cannot be saved. My copy has the
Imprimatur and is dated 1992.
Has article 846 been recinded?
FL
Re: How do you know the Bible is inspired?
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:03 am
by PaulSacramento
Context is, as usual, important:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
Re: How do you know the Bible is inspired?
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:22 pm
by dellsOfBittersweet
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:dellsOfBittersweet wrote:Please guys, both these links badly misrepresent what the Catholic Church has always taught in regards to salvation.
If you have a copy of
Catechism of the Catholic Church, look up article #846 which quite clearly states that a Christian outside of the RCC and a Catholic Christian who does not perservere in the Church, cannot be saved. My copy has the
Imprimatur and is dated 1992.
Has article 846 been recinded?
FL
Your Catechism is most correct. Thank you for going directly to the source, instead of a website run by people who are angry with the Catholic Church. As Paul pointed out though, a little context is always a good thing. Contrary to how the anti-Catholic website misconstrued things, the Catholic Church has never taught that everyone who is not formally the a member is going to hell, and the view that the Catholic Church has changed her teaching on salvation is not accurate. As the articles posted by Paul point out, it best to look at this issue in the positive sense: all salvation comes from the Church, which comes from the cross. Through the Church the saving graces won for us on the cross are made available to souls.
Scripture is very clear that Christ founded at church-"You are Peter, and on this Rock I will build my Church." Seeing as Christ founded a church and desired for all men to join it, it makes no sense why someone who understands Christ's teachings wouldn't want to join. If such a person knew of the necessity of the church for salvation, but chose not to join, this person could not be saved, because he chose to separate himself from the ordinary means of salvation.
No salvation outside the church means that the Church is the source of all salvation. So do we think all protestants are going to hell? Of course not! We in fact view most protestants as already being members, as a result of their baptism. This is why when a protestant becomes Catholic, they receive only the sacrament of confirmation, not baptism. In light of the fact that the protestants have separated themselves from the Catholic Church incompletely through differences of belief and practice, we believe that God desires that all protostants enter into full communion with the Church by becoming Catholic. If a Protestant understood that the fullness of the Church that Christ founded rested only in the Catholic Church, he would be obliged to join for his salvation, but God does not punish for what one does not know.
So what about non-Christians? Those that knew of the necessity of the Church and freely chose not to join would be damned. However, we believe that in a mysterious way, those who are ignorant of the necessity of the Church are still saved through the Church provided that they otherwise lived their lives in a manner consistent with the natural law.
Re: How do you know the Bible is inspired?
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:36 pm
by RickD
We in fact view most protestants as already being members, as a result of their baptism.
Well, since the Catholic church believes water baptism is necessary for salvation, it looks like I'm going straight to hell.
Why do I have this strange feeling of Déjà vu?
Re: How do you know the Bible is inspired?
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:27 pm
by B. W.
B. W. wrote:dellsOfBittersweet wrote:On what authority do we know that the Bible is inspired? The Bible itself doesn't directly say so, so it's inspiration and inerrancy must rest on the statement of some other authority. What authority?
You mean the Pope???
Still have no idea what you mean by your statement-
...so it's inspiration and inerrancy must rest on the statement of some other authority. What authority?
You must have an answer - what is it you are getting at?
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Re: How do you know the Bible is inspired?
Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:20 am
by 1stjohn0666
bippy123 wrote:This is a key question. Now ask yourself what came first, the bible or the church
There was no bible until the late 4th century.
I would have to argue that the Greek Septuigint 200 B.C. was a bible.
Re: How do you know the Bible is inspired?
Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:24 pm
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
dellsOfBittersweet wrote:it makes no sense why someone who understands Christ's teachings wouldn't want to join [the church]. If such a person knew of the necessity of the church for salvation, but chose not to join, this person could not be saved, because he chose to separate himself from the ordinary means of salvation.
Thanks for your answer. I checked my
Catechism of the Catholic Church and noticed that all references in the index to ''church'' or ''catholic'' brought me to articles that seemed inclusive towards other Christian traditions. That is, it is nowhere stated that Jesus' church on earth is
Roman Catholic: it is assumed that the church is apostolic, and catholic in the sense of universal.
While doing all this reading, something made my eyes pop out: article 841 states that Muslims recognize and adore the same God we do.
What's with that?! ...maybe your question about the Koran wasn't spurious after all...
FL
PS: I'M curious...please answer B.W.'s question,
B. W. wrote:Still have no idea what you mean by your statement- ...so it's inspiration and inerrancy must rest on the statement of some other authority. What authority?
You must have an answer - what is it you are getting at?
Re: How do you know the Bible is inspired?
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:08 am
by bippy123
1stjohn0666 wrote:bippy123 wrote:This is a key question. Now ask yourself what came first, the bible or the church
There was no bible until the late 4th century.
I would have to argue that the Greek Septuigint 200 B.C. was a bible.
I would have to argue that the septuigint was the Jewish bible and clearly wasn't all of the Christian bible that wasn't put together until the late 4th to early 5th century by the Catholic Church.
Re: How do you know the Bible is inspired?
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:30 am
by bippy123
B. W. wrote:dellsOfBittersweet wrote:On what authority do we know that the Bible is inspired? The Bible itself doesn't directly say so, so it's inspiration and inerrancy must rest on the statement of some other authority. What authority?
You mean the Pope???
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No we mean the original and only church at that time, the Catholic Church which (guided by the holy spirit) determined which scriptures were inspired and which werent. The canonicity of the old testament and new testament were accepted by all Christians up until the year 1517 when Martin Luther determined to take out the deuteros and parts of Daniel which didnt jive enough for his own private interpretation of what Christianity means.
The early church fathers all recognized the authority that was given by Christ to the early Church and it's authority to interpret scripture guided by the holy spirit. Guys like Clement of Rome in 80ad, Ignatius of Antioch in 110 ad , Polycarp,barnabas and others who were students of the apostles . They weren't just given holy scripture, but were given the full authoritative interpretation Through sacred tradition so that future Christians could more fully understand the full meaning if what the more vague passages in scripture meant.
Without the authoritative interpretation that was given to the church by Jesus Christ and it's passing down to the future leaders of the church we are left to our own devices as far as interpretating what scripture means, and the early Christians never believed in private interpretation of scripture.
Private interpretation started in the 1500's with Martin Luther.
The pope is Christ's Vicar. an easier way to understand the Popes roll is that he is Christ's ambassador.It started in scripture with the passing of the keys and the power to bind and loose.
Re: How do you know the Bible is inspired?
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:35 am
by bippy123
bippy123 wrote:B. W. wrote:dellsOfBittersweet wrote:On what authority do we know that the Bible is inspired? The Bible itself doesn't directly say so, so it's inspiration and inerrancy must rest on the statement of some other authority. What authority?
You mean the Pope???
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We mean the original and only church at that time, the Catholic Church which (guided by the holy spirit) determined which scriptures were inspired and which werent. The canonicity of the old testament and new testament were accepted by all Christians up until the year 1517 when Martin Luther determined to take out the deuteros and parts of Daniel which didnt jive enough for his own private interpretation of what Christianity means.
The early church fathers all recognized the authority that was given by Christ to the early Church and it's authority to interpret scripture guided by the holy spirit. Guys like Clement of Rome in 80ad, Ignatius of Antioch in 110 ad , Polycarp,barnabas and others who were students of the apostles . They weren't just given holy scripture, but were given the full authoritative interpretation Through sacred tradition so that future Christians could more fully understand the full meaning if what the more vague passages in scripture meant.
Without the authoritative interpretation that was given to the church by Jesus Christ and it's passing down to the future leaders of the church we are left to our own devices as far as interpretating what scripture means, and the early Christians never believed in private interpretation of scripture.
Private interpretation started in the 1500's with Martin Luther.
The pope is Christ's Vicar. an easier way to understand the Popes roll is that he is Christ's ambassador.It started in scripture with the passing of the keys and the power to bind and loose.
Re: How do you know the Bible is inspired?
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:07 am
by PaulSacramento
IT is important to understand that the catholic church does NOT = the RCC but the universal church of all those that believe in Christ as Our Lord and saviour.
Yes the term has become synonymous with the RCC but the articles that state the "catholic" church as meant to be understand as the Universal Church of all believers.
