Evidence for God from Science

Jlay, could you please explain Matthew 13:41,42 and Matthew 7:23 for us? Those verses specifically refer to a distant time in the future and are not addressed only to Jews. They are addressed to all Christians and those who thought they were real Christians. The Greek word "anomia" appears in both verses. Anomia basically means "destitute of the Mosaic law." The first 2 verses (in which Jesus' angels will hurl Mosaic law breakers into the furnace) seem about as horrific as one can get when it comes to making a threatening statement. Please explain those verses. From debating other mainstream Christian wannabes in the past, they usually run off to some irrelevant verse or verses, or counter with a broad generalization such as verses that basically say "love is the fulfillment of the law." So how are you going to wiggle out of those 3 terrifying Matthew verses?

Wolfgang wrote:Jlay, could you please explain Matthew 13:41,42 and Matthew 7:23 for us? Those verses specifically refer to a distant time in the future and are not addressed only to Jews. They are addressed to all Christians and those who thought they were real Christians. The Greek word "anomia" appears in both verses. Anomia basically means "destitute of the Mosaic law." The first 2 verses (in which Jesus' angels will hurl Mosaic law breakers into the furnace) seem about as horrific as one can get when it comes to making a threatening statement. Please explain those verses. From debating other mainstream Christian wannabes in the past, they usually run off to some irrelevant verse or verses, or counter with a broad generalization such as verses that basically say "love is the fulfillment of the law." So how are you going to wiggle out of those 2 terrifying Matthew verses?

There is no wiggling. You can't honestly expect that to be answered when the answer has already been provided in my previous post regarding your flawed exegesis. Answer the points that have been presented to you.
Have you sold all you have and given to the poor? Afterall Jesus said it.

Like others that have dodged answering what those extemely frightening Matthew verses really mean, you, too, have responded with a totally irrelevant verse, and have misinterpreted it, too. Giving away all your assets to the poor never was a Mosaic law. Telling the young man to go and sell all that he had after he asked Jesus what was required of him to gain immortality and salvation was strictly a one time instruction only to potential apostles that wanted to follow Him while He was actually on the earth walking around. At another time He said that above all He wished Christians would prosper. You can't prosper by giving away everything you have, which would normally include a very essential house, car, etc. in this modern age.

Yes or no, does anomia refer to the Mosaic laws?

Wolf, it is obvious by your answer that you are not understanding me. I would say that Jesus is ABSOLUTELY referring to the mosaic laws. He is speaking to people under the Law. (Israel) So, your accusation has nothing to do with my argument. It has to do with audience and application.

Wolfgang wrote:Telling the young man to go and sell all that he had after he asked Jesus what was required of him to gain immortality and salvation was strictly a one time instruction only to potential apostles that wanted to follow Him while He was actually on the earth walking around.

You see Wolf, understanding audience and application isn't all that hard is it? You only prove my point. I could say, Where does it say in the text that this only applies to this one person, or in that sense, is that in the text? As you know it isn't in the text. But because you know, likely from studying other scripture, that selling all you had to be saved would contradict other parts of scripture, you apply a different exegesis. Context, audience, application. Well, all you have to do now, is apply that same exegesis consistently.

I've asked you some specifics on tithing and you've failed to answer. So, when you try to accuse someone of dodging, guess what you sound like? If you answered 'hypocrite' then we have a winner.

FWIW, the context of Matthew 7:23 is the SOTM, which of course was directed at Jews (audience), and was a message about the promises to Israel in the OT to restore the Kingdom. (Application)
So let's then look at Matt. 13:41,42
“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
So, He will gather them from where? His Kingdom? When and were is this kingdom?

I'm not dodging your questions sir. I praise God that He has given us a method to rightly divide the Word of truth, and allow it to dwell richly in our lives. You sir, live under a yoke of slavery that you can't possibly begin to carry. Your position would also imply the claim that you are in fact carrying out the law as commanded. So, you set yourself as a judge of men under the law. As Jesus said in the SOTM, the measure you judge, it will be measured unto you. You sir need to be saved. If want to be under the law, you will be judged by it, and you will be found wanting. There is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I stand in Christ. You stand in the Law. So, do you want Matt. 13:42 or Romans 8:1?

Matthew is a fascinating book and in regards to judgment, I always found these verses very fascinating:
Matthew 25:31-46

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Judgment

31 “But when (A)the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then (B)He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be (C)gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, (D)as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep (E)on His right, and the goats (F)on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, (G)inherit the kingdom prepared for you (H)from the foundation of the world. 35 For (I)I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; (J)I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 (K)naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you (L)visited Me; (M)I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 (N)The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, (O)to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘(P)Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the (Q)eternal fire which has been prepared for (R)the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into (S)eternal punishment, but the righteous into (T)eternal life.”

How were those that were saved?
Those that:

35 For (I)I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; (J)I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 (K)naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you (L)visited Me; (M)I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 (N)The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, (O)to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

Some view that this was only applicable to his Apostles, but that can't be the case since Christ clearly states that:
when (A)the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then (B)He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be (C)gathered before Him;
SO unless Jesus thought He would be back before his disciples died, then this lesson is aimed at the WHOLE of His audience and those that Jesus viewed as His brothers and who are those?
Matthew:

And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

Luke:

19 (A)And His mother and brothers came to Him, and they were unable to get to Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was reported to Him, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You.” 21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these (B)who hear the word of God and do it.”

Now the issue MAY be what is the Will of God that Jesus mentions in Matt and Mark? and I think that the will is to listen to His word ( as Luke states writing after Matt and Mark) and His word is CHRIST.
That Jesus was directing this to a Jewish audience, typically with Pharisees present who kept the law in a far stricter way that even those the wrote the original laws, makes me think that it was a different "will" that the Word ( Jesus) of God was telling them to follow than the Torah.
That Jesus took many of the parts of the Torah and re-interpreted them to his followers is quite clear.
The Word of God, Jesus, superceeds ANY written Law.

Jlay, I'll try to answer your tithing specifics later. Yes, I agree with Romans 8:1,2. What "iron clad" guarantee, though, do you have that "those in Jesus Christ" in Romans 8:1 do not need to obey Him? Don't you think that verse assumes that those who "are in Jesus" also obey Him?

JUDE 1:4: "Some godless people ..... EVEN DENY THAT WE MUST OBEY JESUS ....." --- Contemporary English Version

MATTHEW 5:20: "FOR I SAY TO YOU PEOPLE, YOU WILL NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN UNLESS WHAT YOU DO THAT IS RIGHT EXCELS WHAT THE EXPERTS IN THE LAW OF MOSES AND THE PHARISEES [i. e., a strict sect of the Jewish religion] DO THAT IS RIGHT." --- An Understandable Version

Concerning "audience" Matthew 7:22 talks about the condemned having "prophesied" in Jesus' name and "casting out demons," both traditional Christian, not Jewish activities or efforts. "Prophesied" can easily be tranlated or defined as "taught," not necessarily "predicting" as in prophetic verses.

Concerning "audience" Matthew 7:22 talks about the condemned having "prophesied" in Jesus' name and "casting out demons," both traditional Christian, not Jewish activities or efforts. "Prophesied" can easily be translated or defined as "taught," not necessarily "predicting" as in prophetic verses.

Both activities that Jesus did and told His followers to do.
Not sure your point there...

Wolfgang wrote:Jlay, I'll try to answer your tithing specifics later.

JUDE 1:4: "Some godless people ..... EVEN DENY THAT WE MUST OBEY JESUS ....." --- Contemporary English Version

MATTHEW 5:20: "FOR I SAY TO YOU PEOPLE, YOU WILL NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN UNLESS WHAT YOU DO THAT IS RIGHT EXCELS WHAT THE EXPERTS IN THE LAW OF MOSES AND THE PHARISEES [i. e., a strict sect of the Jewish religion] DO THAT IS RIGHT." --- An Understandable Version

Concerning "audience" Matthew 7:22 talks about the condemned having "prophesied" in Jesus' name and "casting out demons," both traditional Christian, not Jewish activities or efforts. "Prophesied" can easily be tranlated or defined as "taught," not necessarily "predicting" as in prophetic verses.

Jesus audience in Matthew 7 is Isreal. How do you figure that casting out demons is traditional Christian? Jesus and His disciples cast out demons.

The first thing we need to obey is how the Bible presents the plan of salvation for us today? Jesus said, The Gospel of John presents a case (John 20:31) regarding individual salvation. John 5:24, John 3:16. Matt. is very different book in what it is teaching.
If salvation is contingent on obedience, (and I use obedience in the context of how you are using it regarding the Law.) then please tell us how can anyone be saved? If that is the case then we are hopeless as the Rich Young Ruler. That is works and performanced based salvation.

I already asked you a question regarding the KINGDOM regarding Matt. 13:41. If you aren't going to answer the question regarding this, then I can't rightly address your quote of Matt. 5:20. You appear to be conflating the Kingdom of Heaven to salvation. What would the Kingdom have meant to a 1st century Jew?

Yes, I agree with Romans 8:1,2. What "iron clad" guarantee, though, do you have that "those in Jesus Christ" in Romans 8:1 do not need to obey Him? Don't you think that verse assumes that those who "are in Jesus" also obey Him?

Depends what you mean by obey. When you say obey, you are using the word regarding what Jesus was teaching specfically to Israel. Of course Jews were to obey the Law. They were given the law. And when they conformed to the Law guess what? Blessing, prosperity and favor. The Law was for the theocracy of Israel. There are certainly things the believer should obey. But does this save them? The chapters that preceed Romans 8:1 give a pretty good testimony from Paul regarding the Law.

What you are promoting is legalism, works based salvation, that is contingent on the believer's performance.

Regarding Jude 1:4
"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
NIV For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

The grace of God should NEVER be used as an excuse for immorality. However, Paul was accused of this very thing, which he had to deny. Romans 6:1
This is akin to saying you should and can do anything you want because of Grace. The beleiver is called to live the sanctified life. But they first have to be a believer. Paul was also attacked by legalists because of how radical the Gospel of Grace was compared with the Law. They were convinced that Paul was promoting that the grace of God is an excuse to sin.

PaulSacramento, the point I wanted to make was to try to show jlay that Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23 was talking to (His audience) primarily Christians, not Jews, condemning them for violating many, but not all Mosaic laws. It is the Christians, not the Jews, who have been known as those who "cast out demons" and perform "wonders." Catholics, for example, who are trying to be Christians, are more famous for performing exorcisms, or casting out demons, than the Jews. Concerning "wonders," maybe Jesus was referring to well known theologians such as Pat Robertson and Benny Hinn (both break the dietary laws and ignore the festival laws, etc.) who have claimed to have performed wonders by "healing" people.

Jlay, you cannot pick out verses then ignore what is said elsewhere in the Bible. John 3:36 shows that obedience is part of "believing" in Jesus.

JOHN 3:36:
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever DISOBEYS the Son will never have life," --- Today's English Version
"........ those who don't believe AND OBEY Him shall never see heaven ........" --- Living Bible
"........ he who does not OBEY the Son shall not see life ........" --- Revised Standard Version
"........ but he who DISOBEYS the Son shall not see that life ........" --- New English Bible
"........ but he who does not OBEY the Son will not see life ........" --- New American Standard
"........ whoever does not OBEY the Son shall not see life ........" --- English Standard Version
"........ whoever DISOBEYS the Son will not have life ........" --- Good News Translation
"Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who do not OBEY the Son will never have life ........" --- New Century Version
A number of English translations that include even the conservative King James Version, dilute "disobeys" down to "does not believe," "believeth not," or similar words. The original Greek, though, specifically uses the word APEITHEO, Strong's number 544, which basically means to refuse belief AND OBEDIENCE!

The kingdom in Matthew 13:41 is apparently the whole universe, especially the earth and its human population after the Christian millennium, before the new heavens and the new earth are literally created.

Legalism, shmegalism. You've been reading too much nonsense from Jude 1:4's grace abusers. It is of course by grace, the perfect sacrificial death of Jesus, that now saves us, not works or law keeping. But law keeping keeps our lives holy and safe, including our bodies, which are supposed to be the "temples of the Holy Spirit." I know we can't keep the law perfectly, but we don't have to since it is grace that really saves us. Just because we cannot observe the law perfectly, though, is no excuse to totally abandon the law. Let me put it this way: Let's jump into a time machine and go back in time to 600 years ago, but keep our present knowledge of the Bible. I challenge you to prove that the dietary laws are "abolished" by going out and hunting down an armadillo and killing it, then cooking it and finally eating it, a forbidden food. So you accepted the challenge 600 years ago and killed an armadillo and ate it. Well, the chances are good that you would have then contracted leprosy, since it is now scientifically well established that armadillos are major carriers of leprosy (which was not known 600 years ago. Then people did not even know what causes leprosy). Just handling the animal before cooking it can give you the disease, I believe. So you probably would have had to live out the rest of your life in a leper colony. That is one of the consequences of breaking the dietary laws. That would not have been a good way to maintain your temple, which is your physical body, which houses the Holy Spirit.

Since AIDS was probably invented by the Lord suddenly and without warning other than the Bible, to punish homosexuals and the promiscuous, He can also at any time, without advance notice, create new cooking resistant diseases in the forbidden foods to punish those who ignore His still valid dietary laws, and it might take decades just to identify the new disease and even longer to devise a cure for it, if it even is curable. Eating what is divinely forbidden is risky business at best.

It's about 11:45 PM here in Texas where I am, so I'm going to get ready for bed now. This is my last comment for today.

Since AIDS was probably invented by the Lord suddenly and without warning other than the Bible, to punish homosexuals and the promiscuous, He can also at any time, without advance notice, create new cooking resistant diseases in the forbidden foods to punish those who ignore His still valid dietary laws, and it might take decades just to identify the new disease and even longer to devise a cure for it, if it even is curable. Eating what is divinely forbidden is risky business at best.

You have no sense of biology or theology. You should learn both.

neo-x wrote:

Since AIDS was probably invented by the Lord suddenly and without warning other than the Bible, to punish homosexuals and the promiscuous, He can also at any time, without advance notice, create new cooking resistant diseases in the forbidden foods to punish those who ignore His still valid dietary laws, and it might take decades just to identify the new disease and even longer to devise a cure for it, if it even is curable. Eating what is divinely forbidden is risky business at best.

You have no sense of biology or theology. You should learn both.

I second what Neo said, that post is totally and completely ludicrous Wolfgang!

SB

PaulSacramento, the point I wanted to make was to try to show jlay that Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23 was talking to (His audience) primarily Christians, not Jews, condemning them for violating many, but not all Mosaic laws. It is the Christians, not the Jews, who have been known as those who "cast out demons" and perform "wonders." Catholics, for example, who are trying to be Christians, are more famous for performing exorcisms, or casting out demons, than the Jews. Concerning "wonders," maybe Jesus was referring to well known theologians such as Pat Robertson and Benny Hinn (both break the dietary laws and ignore the festival laws, etc.) who have claimed to have performed wonders by "healing" people.

Seems like you are suggesting that casting out demons and performing wonders and prophesying were/are wrong, is that correct?
Also seems like you are suggesting that Jesus was talking to Christians when his audience was clearly Jewish since there were no Christians around at that time obviously.
Unless of course you mean that Jesus was talking about how he would address future Christians upon His return.

Wolf,

PaulSacramento, the point I wanted to make was to try to show jlay that Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23 was talking to (His audience) primarily Christians, not Jews, condemning them for violating many, but not all Mosaic laws.

What? His audience was absolutely Jewish. How in the world did you make such a conclusion. Sir, you are only showing your ignorance.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Is your name Fred Phelps?

Jlay, you cannot pick out verses then ignore what is said elsewhere in the Bible.

But, that is exactly what you are doing. You already said you ignore what Jesus told the RYR. We should never ignore the Bible. We should "rightly divide the word of truth." Something you have failed at miserably.

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever DISOBEYS the Son will never have life," -

Wolf, again your exegesis is suspect. We should obey the son. And if we want eternal life we need to obey. Obey what? context......
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
I think it would be wise to obey this instruction to believe. Do you? Context, context, context. Do you believe that? Or do you believe that your law keeping saves you? Of course you aren't really obeying the law. You are violating the OT by picking and choosing what you will obey.

But law keeping keeps our lives holy and safe, including our bodies, which are supposed to be the "temples of the Holy Spirit."

Law keeping doesn't keep our lives Holy. What did Jesus say about what does into the mouth and what comes out? If it did then Israel wouldn't need a Messiah. Spirit living keeps our lives holy. Have you read Romans 8?

Just because we cannot observe the law perfectly, though, is no excuse to totally abandon the law. Let me put it this way: Let's jump into a time machine and go back in time to 600 years ago, but keep our present knowledge of the Bible. I challenge you to prove that the dietary laws are "abolished" by going out and hunting down an armadillo and killing it, then cooking it and finally eating it, a forbidden food.

Was eating it any more safe before the dietary laws were given through Moses? Was murdering any less wrong prior to Sinai? The law points out some obvious, universal truths. Amen.

The kingdom in Matthew 13:41 is apparently the whole universe, especially the earth and its human population after the Christian millennium, before the new heavens and the new earth are literally created.

Why would you say that? Jesus explains in the context of Matt. 13 exactly what the Kingdom is in this parable. Why would you disobey and import your own opinions? You sir are lawless.
Matt. 13:37-39
37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
The term Kingdom certainly does not refer to the whole universe. This is a parable about a specific people, Israel. They were always the people of the Kingdom. This refers to a time when God will restore His earthly people.

Wolf, you need to repent. Abandon this futile way of thinking. You've been shown, by God's grace, the error in your reasoning, and that your exegesis is a hodge podge of recklessness. If you think that is obedience, then you have another thing coming.

Okay, let me back way up and explain something about Matthew 7:23. I considered it an irrelevant issue about whether those physically present who heard what Jesus, while He was on the earth, said in Matthew 7:21-23, were Jewish, gentile, or whatever. Jesus' words "in that day, Lord, Lord" in Matthew 7:22 obviously refers to people in the distant future on "Judgment Day." That future audience was the audience I was referring to.

To those who were not overly pleased with my AIDS comment, are you saying that venereal diseases are as common among animals as in humans? Biblical scoffers mistakenly believe AIDS evolved among monkeys. I can't say for sure, of course, where AIDS came from, but common horse sense says it was divinely created since evolutionism is false and since venereal diseases are actually quite rare among animals, who are generally very promiscuous, and since the Bible warns that human sexual sins, especially homosexuality, invite curses.

I never meant to imply that "casting out demons"or "prophesying" (teaching in the name of Jesus) is wrong.

Jlay, could you elaborate on exactly what you meant about "what goes into the mouth and what comes out"?

Again, I remind everyone that law keeping saves no one, only grace through Jesus Christ is what now saves us. According to Jesus, though, not me or remnant churches of the former Worldwide Church of God, which are the most righteous churches (including like minded sister churches) in the world, according to Jesus parts of the Mosaic laws still need to be strictly obeyed. Failure to obey those laws in a very good manner will not necessarily cost you your salvation, but sloppy obedience could cost you dearly in the competitive "reward" given to you in the next life.

You people who are willing to eat almost anything that crawls or flies or swims, are you saying that the dietary laws were NOT in force before Moses was born? Are you saying the dietary laws will NOT still be in force after Jesus returns at the beginning of the Christian millennium? If you say that, I have some verses that will refute that mistaken belief.

Wolfgang wrote:Again, I remind everyone that law keeping saves no one, only grace through Jesus Christ is what now saves us. According to Jesus, though, not me or remnant churches of the former Worldwide Church of God, which are the most righteous churches (including like minded sister churches) in the world, according to Jesus parts of the Mosaic laws still need to be strictly obeyed. Failure to obey those laws in a very good manner will not necessarily cost you your salvation, but sloppy obedience could cost you dearly in the competitive "reward" given to you in the next life.

Exactly Wolfgang.. Jesus never under any circumstances said that the laws given in the Tanach are now void. We don't practice them to attain salvation, we practice them because we want to obey.. Out of love.

We and others have tried explaining that G-d's laws are not curses, but unfortunately many have hard wired G-d's laws as being curses... Criticizing G-d for us having to take a day off of work, watching what foods we should eat, celebrating the festivals which beautifully explain Christ's redemptive work. At some point you just have to drop it.. It has to be in the heart and no matter how hard you try to explain it to someone. It just won't sink in.