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Re: Baptism
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:17 pm
by RickD
dom wrote:
Absolutely, Rick. I think the best thing we can do is get all the information out there, don't you think? I'm not interested in a "pissing match" as you call it. I simply as supporting my view and bringing my findings to share.
If you disagree with it, then you disagree.
You say that you'll let others decide. I say, let God decide for us. He knows better.
Dom, I'm saying that each of us has to decide if faith in Christ is enough for our own salvation, or if we need faith plus something. In this case, faith in Christ plus water baptism.
And again, the water does not save.
Then explain to our readers why you believe I'm not saved because I haven't been baptized in water, if the water doesn't save. I have faith in Christ. But, according to you, that's not enough. I MUST be immersed in water, or I have no indwelling Holy Spirit, and I'm not saved. Sounds like you believe the power is in water baptism, and that makes you a baptismal regeneration adherent.
Regardless of your view on baptism. The fact is, baptisms did indeed happen and he commanded his disciples to do it.
I don't disagree. Can we end this here where we both agree on something?
Re: Baptism
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:38 pm
by Sam1995
I disagree with you Rick.
Just to be a pain
SB
Re: Baptism
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:49 pm
by RickD
Re: Baptism
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:54 pm
by 1over137
Thanks Dom for posting the verses. I am also not interested in some match. I would be so grateful if I could read posted Scripture verses without some personal stuff around.
Well, I will pray for that.
Re: Baptism
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:02 pm
by PaulSacramento
I think the issue MAY be this:
Matthew 3:11
English Standard Version (ESV)
11 (A)“I baptize you with water (B)for repentance, but (C)he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you (D)with the Holy Spirit and (E)fire.
John 1:33
English Standard Version (ESV)
33 I myself did not know him, but (A)he who sent me to baptize (B)with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, (C)this is he who baptizes (D)with the Holy Spirit.’
John 1:33
English Standard Version (ESV)
33 I myself did not know him, but (A)he who sent me to baptize (B)with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, (C)this is he who baptizes (D)with the Holy Spirit.’
Paul also seems to make it clear that it isn't WHO baptizes but that the Baptism is in Christ's name, that matters, even going to the point to state that he doesn't even recall who he baptized.
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize,f but to preach the gospel—not with wisdomg and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Re: Baptism
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:06 pm
by PaulSacramento
I often wonder about the passage in which 3000 were baptized in one day ( although the passage could be understood that it was because of that day that they were baptized).
I wonder the logistics of it, 3000 people in one day for water baptizing, but for a spirit baptizing they could have all be done at the same time even.
Although I am sure that even if it was a spirit baptizing that they probably did a water one too/eventually.
Re: Baptism
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:27 pm
by jlay
domokunrox wrote:RickD wrote:Dom, I'm not getting into another pissing match with you about baptismal regeneration. I'll let others decide if they believe salvation comes by the Grace of God through faith in Christ. Or, if salvation comes through faith in Christ plus...
Absolutely, Rick. I think the best thing we can do is get all the information out there, don't you think? I'm not interested in a "pissing match" as you call it. I simply as supporting my view and bringing my findings to share.
If you disagree with it, then you disagree.
You say that you'll let others decide. I say, let God decide for us. He knows better.
RickD wrote:And Dom, you need to look a little further down:
John 4:2:2 (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),
By Christ not baptizing anyone in water, maybe He was showing that the power to save wasn't in the water itself. Among other reasons why Jesus didn't baptize in water was so people wouldn't wrongly believe that it was the water that saves. Unfortunately, there are still some who claim baptismal regeneration.
And again, the water does not save.
Its interesting that you bring up the next chapter.
Look at verse 1
Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
Regardless of your view on baptism. The fact is, baptisms did indeed happen and he commanded his disciples to do it.
Unless, are you arguing that Jesus' authority is only to do as I do, and never do as I say?
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
So, are you a disciple? Are those signs following you? (Mark 16:17)
Proper exegesis would reveal the the word "baptizo" does not necessarily imply water. It means 'to immerse.' One can certainly be immersed in water, and that is exactly what JTB was doing. So, what was the purpose of JTB baptism and the same water baptism that Jesus was employing in His earthly ministry? I assure you it wasn't for Gentiles.
Baptism is absolutely essential to salvation. Baptism INTO what is the question.
Paul says, "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."
Notice that now the distinctions are gone. So is any mention of water.
The believer today is baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. (Eph. 1:13)
Paul. Ding, ding, we have a winner. On the money
Re: Baptism
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:08 pm
by Sam1995
jlay wrote:So, are you a disciple? Are those signs following you? (Mark 16:17)
Do you not believe in the power of the HS?
SB
Re: Baptism
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:05 am
by domokunrox
Rick,
1. In my view, it is not up to me or anything else to decide how we are saved. That's up to God. The only thing we can do is consent to His truth and how He wants to save us. There is no negotiations, just a complete surrender to His plan and instruction.
2. Let me be clear on what I think of you, Rick. I don't believe that you do not have faith. Your unwillingness to follow the instruction of John 3:5 leads me to conclude that you don't have a SAVING faith. Titus 3:5 supports the view, along with many others.
Paulsac,
you bring some interesting thought and verses into the discussion. Which leads us to a VERY critical and VERY important question that everyone needs to know the answer.
WHEN did the Holy Spirit come?
Also, Paulsac is dead on when it comes to the logistics of baptism. This is further supported by Acts 2:38 . If the crowd BELIEVED, why were they not yet saved?
They heard the truth, they believed it.
They didn't just go, "Ok, cool, see you later" and be on their merry way.
Re: Baptism
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:28 am
by neo-x
In my view, it is not up to me or anything else to decide how we are saved. That's up to God. The only thing we can do is consent to His truth and how He wants to save us. There is no negotiations, just a complete surrender to His plan and instruction.
In other words you do say that faith in christ + baptism in water saves.
Re: Baptism
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:33 am
by Sam1995
domokunrox wrote:Rick,
1. In my view, it is not up to me or anything else to decide how we are saved. That's up to God. The only thing we can do is consent to His truth and how He wants to save us. There is no negotiations, just a complete surrender to His plan and instruction.
Exactly, you're right, it is up to God. I'm very thankful that God has made it very clear about how we give our lives to Him. Baptism in water has nothing to do with it, surrendering your life to Christ Jesus is the only criteria.
SB
Re: Baptism
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:44 am
by GreyDeSilvisanctis
Sam1995 wrote:domokunrox wrote:Rick,
1. In my view, it is not up to me or anything else to decide how we are saved. That's up to God. The only thing we can do is consent to His truth and how He wants to save us. There is no negotiations, just a complete surrender to His plan and instruction.
Exactly, you're right, it is up to God. I'm very thankful that God has made it very clear about how we give our lives to Him. Baptism in water has nothing to do with it, surrendering your life to Christ Jesus is the only criteria.
SB
True. It
is entirely up to God. Water baptism is just a way to show other people that one has chosen to follow Christ and live a new life.
The heart of the matter is that we choose to accept the free gift that He has given and with this, we can follow His will in our lives.
As in a relationship, the two sides matter. (Hm, this may be a case of unrequited love.)
By the way fellows of this forum, what are your opinions of baptizing a person in the water more than once?
~Grey
Re: Baptism
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:00 am
by domokunrox
Jlay,
I am a bit confused about your question regarding Mark 16:17 . Are you saying the Holy spirit will not act if I asked in His name? I never needed to cast out demons or speak in another language, so I cannot verify it by empiricism for you. Are you a verificationist? I don't hold that view. If I ask in His name, and it is the will of God, the Holy spirit will do it. I have no reason to believe otherwise. Do you?
You might want to rethink your exegesis. Let's go back one verse.
(NASB)Matthew 28:19-20
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, [20] teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Also, the verse you cited from Paul is regarding a Jew/Gentile related dispute. Not a salvation dispute. I have support from Paul for my position as well.
(NASB)Romans 6:4-5
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Key word being CERTAINLY
And more support in 1 John
(NASB)1 John 5:6-8
This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. [7] For there are three that testify: [8] the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
Neo-x,
No, didn't I answer that same question multiple times already?
Re: Baptism
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:40 am
by 1stjohn0666
A person can be Christian without baptism, but why not get baptized as it is a command from Jesus? James writes a good piece, James 2:14-26 Faith.. if it is true, is shown with works.
Re: Baptism
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:33 am
by jlay
domokunrox wrote:Jlay,
I am a bit confused about your question regarding Mark 16.17. Are you saying the Holy spirit will not act if I asked in His name? I never needed to cast out demons or speak in another language, so I cannot verify it by empiricism for you. Are you a verificationist? I don't hold that view. If I ask in His name, and it is the will of God, the Holy spirit will do it. I have no reason to believe otherwise. Do you?
That is a bit of a loaded question Dom, and I think you know it.
There is not any question regarding the signs of the Apostolic church. Did Peter have to stop and pray before he healed the begger? These signs WILL accompany. Now, either the signs are following or they are not. Are you saying you've never known anyone sick? v.18?
Verification? Are you saying that you believe Benny Hinn and loads of other phonies, or do you verify?
(NASB) Romans 6.4-5
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
What support are you arguing for here? Citing the verse isn't an argument. You are again making assumptions about the word Baptizo. We have been buried with him through baptism. Into what? Water? No. Death. Baptized INTO Christ.
Sam1995 wrote:
Do you not believe in the power of the HS?
Sam, seriously? Why would you that? And what do you mean by the power of the HS? have you personally healed anyone, raised someone from the dead? What kind of power are you speaking of? Be specific.
