Evidence for God from Science

bippy123 wrote:It is my honor and privilege to worship God who is my lord and savior, the God of love and the God of justice who came down from his throne in heaven to live as the poorest of men, to be ridiculed, spat on, beaten and crucified. He did all this because he loves us so much and wants more than anything to have a personal relationship with all of us. There is nothing more that I could ever want then to see him face to face in heaven, to give him a hug spend all of eternity with him with my family friends and all of humanity. To me there is nothing that makes more sense. Nothing even comes close, because in the end he isn't just the God of love, he is LOVE itself.

And God doesn't create evil. He created us with the free will choice to follow the laws he has engraved into our hearts or turn away from them. Without the gift of free will we wouldn't be able to love.

So angels are incapable of love?

jlay wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:

1over137 wrote: Well, I want to ask you Magsolo, why He should prevent widespread evil and suffering (on this Earth)?
Feel free to send me private message.

Because widespread evil and suffering are bad and God is supposed to be good

Define and account for 'good' and 'evil' and provide a context for them that isn't dependent of human bias. Then we can talk.

I dont understand what you mean by account for good and evil and provide a context for them that isnt dependent of human bias

Byblos wrote:

jlay wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:

1over137 wrote: Well, I want to ask you Magsolo, why He should prevent widespread evil and suffering (on this Earth)?
Feel free to send me private message.

Because widespread evil and suffering are bad and God is supposed to be good

Define and account for 'good' and 'evil' and provide a context for them that isn't dependent of human bias. Then we can talk.

Seriously J, how many times are we supposed to do this, with the same person no less? After a while it gets to be simply sickening to discuss the same subject over and over and over again.

At some point we just need to leave them to their own demons.

Lover asked me a specific question and I gave an answer to her question. If you will show me the post where this has been answered before then I will gladly look over it again.

Sam1995 wrote:Speaking on behalf of Christianity alone, whether or not God is worthy to be worshipped is purely down to your perspective on who God is.
I believe God is a God of love, compassion, grace and justice who loved the world and it's center-piece (mankind) so much that He sent His begotten son to provide salvation for people like you and me. I believe in a God who heals the brokenhearted, lavishes grace upon those who choose to receive it and who has a plan and purpose for the lives of every human being on the planet. Furthermore I believe in a God who can take the most torn apart, broken life and completely transform and renew it into a beautiful new creation as I have seen Him do many times, including my own life.

If that doesn't make God worthy of worship, I don't know what does.

SB

A God of love, compassion, grace, and justice? If God was actually any of those things, the world would not be in the terrible shape it is today. Adam and Eve sinned against God because they were deceived by Satan. God could have shown love, compassion, and grace and simply absolved them of their transgression. Instead he did not show compassion, choosing instead to curse Adam and Eve, and allowing the Earth to fall into a fallen state of suffering and evil. This world is the way it is because of Gods specific choices and a striking lack of love, compassion, and grace. This is all hypothetically presuming that God actually exists of course. I dont believe the Earth is full of evil and suffering because of the fall but since you do, how can you say that God is a God of love, compassion, and grace when the Earth is full of evil and suffering because he did not show compassion, love, and grace when it mattered the most. Had he showed compassion and grace when it mattered, there would have never been any need to send his son to be tortured and killed. Jesus says that we are to forgive our brother 7 times 70 times when he sins against us and yet instead of compassion and grace God chose to curse the Earth because of Adam and Eve disobeying him.

MAGSolo wrote:A God of love, compassion, grace, and justice? If God was actually any of those things, the world would not be in the terrible shape it is today

What your missing is that God doesn't cause these things, we do.

Adam and Eve sinned against God because they were deceived by Satan. God could have shown love, compassion, and grace and simply absolved them of their transgression.

Would you have ever learned anything if your parents never punished you?

Instead he did not show compassion, choosing instead to curse Adam and Eve, and allowing the Earth to fall into a fallen state of suffering and evil.

We bought our own suffering upon ourselves, we chose this mess because we thought we could do it without God, God just let us have our choices.

This world is the way it is because of Gods specific choices and a striking lack of love, compassion, and grace.

Not God's choices, our choices.

I dont believe the Earth is full of evil and suffering because of the fall but since you do, how can you say that God is a God of love, compassion, and grace when the Earth is full of evil and suffering because he did not show compassion, love, and grace when it mattered the most

Because he came here and paid the ultimate price for our evil ways, he died with our sin on his shoulders, but he also beat death so that we may be with him for those that accept the free gift, sounds like a loving Father to me.

Had he showed compassion and grace when it mattered, there would have never been any need to send his son to be tortured and killed.

This is just speculation, you don't know all possible outcomes, only God would know that.

Jesus says that we are to forgive our brother 7 times 70 times when he sins against us and yet instead of compassion and grace God chose to curse the Earth because of Adam and Eve disobeying him.

God has forgiven those who love him, even before the universe was created we were forgiven, now thats grace.

I really don't know where you get all this curse stuff from, we created this mess.


Dan

MAGSolo wrote:

Sam1995 wrote:Speaking on behalf of Christianity alone, whether or not God is worthy to be worshipped is purely down to your perspective on who God is.
I believe God is a God of love, compassion, grace and justice who loved the world and it's center-piece (mankind) so much that He sent His begotten son to provide salvation for people like you and me. I believe in a God who heals the brokenhearted, lavishes grace upon those who choose to receive it and who has a plan and purpose for the lives of every human being on the planet. Furthermore I believe in a God who can take the most torn apart, broken life and completely transform and renew it into a beautiful new creation as I have seen Him do many times, including my own life.

If that doesn't make God worthy of worship, I don't know what does.

SB

A God of love, compassion, grace, and justice? If God was actually any of those things, the world would not be in the terrible shape it is today. Adam and Eve sinned against God because they were deceived by Satan. God could have shown love, compassion, and grace and simply absolved them of their transgression. Instead he did not show compassion, choosing instead to curse Adam and Eve, and allowing the Earth to fall into a fallen state of suffering and evil. This world is the way it is because of Gods specific choices and a striking lack of love, compassion, and grace. This is all hypothetically presuming that God actually exists of course. I dont believe the Earth is full of evil and suffering because of the fall but since you do, how can you say that God is a God of love, compassion, and grace when the Earth is full of evil and suffering because he did not show compassion, love, and grace when it mattered the most. Had he showed compassion and grace when it mattered, there would have never been any need to send his son to be tortured and killed. Jesus says that we are to forgive our brother 7 times 70 times when he sins against us and yet instead of compassion and grace God chose to curse the Earth because of Adam and Eve disobeying him.

Error, Error, Error!

Context! You're pitting God's love, compassion, and grace, against God's Justice.

God is the Lawgiver. Therefore, he must appoint both rules to follow as well as enforce them in some form. God was exercising an act of justice in what he did for Adam and Eve. Not to mention he allowed them to live a very long lifespan, to boot. God /was/ compassionate in that he didn't wipe them out then and there, and allowed for humanity to actually grow and develop.

Also, you miss the point of the event and its significance. It indicates that Adam and Eve chose, while knowing better, to do something selfish rather than trust what God said, which, inevitably, has consequences, whether apparent or not at the time.

Would a loving God even deny the ability to decide for one's self whether or not to accept God or reject Him, since the very essence of love is a deliberate and conscious choice and way to live? And don't you know that in some situations, the most loving thing to do is to bring a consequence towards certain behavior to make it clear that such behavior is wrong? Is discipline unloving? God assigned a consequence to not just Adam and Eve, but to Satan as well. (Isn't it convenient that you left this out?)

Also, let's see here, God the Word becoming flesh and God the Son on our behalf, to be brutally murdered by a bunch of bitter, stubborn, rebellious, and hateful people to fulfill a requirement in an ancient over-a-thousand-year-old covenant that he had made, starting with Abraham and later on holding the same covenant for Isaac, Jacob (Israel), laying out the framework for a nation through Moses, carrying it on through Joshua and many others, leaving subtle hints and clues to his intention that can be traced throughout scripture? Fulfilling the demand for blood to atone for sin? (a requirement which God put into place, by the way.) So, the body that is the physical representation of God himself being murdered at the hands of his own creation then later to be resurrected to secure the fate of the believers that turn to him, how is that in any way not kind, compassionate, and loving? Giving people a chance, a way to come to him? A way to bypass what separated us from God in the first place? GOD took action to atone for and clean up OUR mess, so WE could be with HIM! He took OUR fate upon HIMSELF! How is that in any way unloving or uncompassionate or any of that? God taking action to clean up the mess made by Adam and Eve? Let alone to forgive us of our own sins? So yes, it was completely necessary in order for us to have a relationship with Him. (Why do you assume that God was being unjust in creating them in the first place and in such a way as to be incapable of wrong? Are you saying that God shouldn't have given humans free will?)

Honestly, you take the context of significant moments that demonstrate God's attributes very strongly, and you twist them and use them to slander him. Ridiculous!

"Does God deserve to be worshipped...?"

HECK YES!

MAGSolo wrote:

1over137 wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:

1over137 wrote: Well, I want to ask you Magsolo, why He should prevent widespread evil and suffering (on this Earth)?
Feel free to send me private message.

Because widespread evil and suffering are bad and God is supposed to be good

Do you think God is happy about widespread evil? I do not think so. God is good, yes, but also just.

Well, I went through some very tough sufferings in my life and I do not hate God for it. Thanks to it I grew.

Evil is due to sin. Evil is absence of God. We do not want God therefore we have evil.

Providing God even exists, I dont think hes happy about widespread evil, but I do think he is indifferent about it.

Indifferent. Hmmm. I checked definition of that word:

in·dif·fer·ent (n-dfr-nt, -dfrnt)
adj.
1. Having no particular interest or concern; apathetic: indifferent to the sufferings of others.
2. Having no marked feeling for or against: She remained indifferent toward their proposal.
3. Not mattering one way or the other: It's indifferent to me which outfit you choose.
4. Characterized by a lack of partiality; unbiased: an indifferent judge.
5. Being neither too much nor too little; moderate.
6. Being neither good nor bad; mediocre: an indifferent performance. See Synonyms at average.
7. Being neither right nor wrong.
8. Not active or involved; neutral: an indifferent chemical in a reaction.
9. Biology Undifferentiated, as cells or tissue.
[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin indifferns, indifferent- : in-, not; see in-1 + differns, different; see different.]
in·differ·ent·ly adv.
-----

I do not think indifferent is a proper word based on 1,2,3 points.

It seems to me that you expect God to correct things so that there was no evil. Have you checked the link to Aquinas' Summa I gave you? Anyway, I have on my comp wise stuff on the problem of evil. Get back to your question you when I read it.

MAGSolo wrote:

bippy123 wrote:It is my honor and privilege to worship God who is my lord and savior, the God of love and the God of justice who came down from his throne in heaven to live as the poorest of men, to be ridiculed, spat on, beaten and crucified. He did all this because he loves us so much and wants more than anything to have a personal relationship with all of us. There is nothing more that I could ever want then to see him face to face in heaven, to give him a hug spend all of eternity with him with my family friends and all of humanity. To me there is nothing that makes more sense. Nothing even comes close, because in the end he isn't just the God of love, he is LOVE itself.

And God doesn't create evil. He created us with the free will choice to follow the laws he has engraved into our hearts or turn away from them. Without the gift of free will we wouldn't be able to love.

So angels are incapable of love?

What does angels being capable of love have to do with God being worthy of our praise and worship?
Do you see what you are doing Mag?
You have gotten yourself into a spiritual black hole where you will not only doubt God to the point of irrationality but you have committed yourself to nitpick at any good evidence for Gods goodness. Did not one third of the angels in heaven become seduced by lucifer? Did they not make their choice also.
Saint Michael stood by God. In fact Michael means "who is like God"
The answer? No one is like God

I've seen the many answers provided to you by the people on this thread and I don't understand why you think they don't make sense, which leads me to believe that your problem with God is an emotional one which u might be masking as an intellectual one.

Emotional problem is as important as intellectual.

We are to help each other with our burdens.

And it's not easy for people to show others their emotions. They have fear in my opinion.

1over137 wrote:Emotional problem is as important as intellectual.

We are to help each other with our burdens.

And it's not easy for people to show others their emotions. They have fear in my opinion.

I agree totally. This is why we must always be there for our brothers and sisters.
Gmsolo, remember my friend that God is looking at the big picture here.
Jesus was absolutely sinless wasn't he?
And yet he he endured pain, ridicule , torture and finally rejection.
If enduring all of this was wrong why did Jesus the suffering servant come down from heaven endure all of this?
He even asked that this cup be taken from him, but he never wavered because he loves us. He is our true beloved who would endure it all for us .
Gmsolo why not focus ur attention on this instead?
Remember also the 80 to 90 years on this earth is but a blink of eye compared to all of eternity.

Proinsias wrote:I have meet someone who says if they are mistaken and it turns out God does exist then God deserves to be punched and they will gladly deliver the punch if they ever happen to meet God. And it really did seem to come from the heart.

I think it's one you've really got to make your own mind up on, what does God deserve and if it's not worship what is it? Love, respect, mocking, fear, devotion, honesty, good behaviour, a punch......you take your pick and place your bet.

Proinsias, so what your basically telling us is that these finite beings who arrogantly believe that they could do things in a better way than an eternal God would like to punch him when they meet him .
Doesn't that remind you of a 5 year old kid saying he will kill his parents one day because the kid bullied and beat up another kid and was punished by his parents for it ?
What would u think of a kid like this?
Logical?
Rational?
Intellectual?
Loving?

My guess is that the people that you know would call this kid a stubborn, arrogant brat that thinks he knows everything when in fact he has so much left to learn.
I wonder how those people that you know would respond if they met the other guy downstairs?
Let me guess, "we want eternal pain, give it to us now?"

MAGSolo wrote:

Sam1995 wrote:Speaking on behalf of Christianity alone, whether or not God is worthy to be worshipped is purely down to your perspective on who God is.
I believe God is a God of love, compassion, grace and justice who loved the world and it's center-piece (mankind) so much that He sent His begotten son to provide salvation for people like you and me. I believe in a God who heals the brokenhearted, lavishes grace upon those who choose to receive it and who has a plan and purpose for the lives of every human being on the planet. Furthermore I believe in a God who can take the most torn apart, broken life and completely transform and renew it into a beautiful new creation as I have seen Him do many times, including my own life.

If that doesn't make God worthy of worship, I don't know what does.

SB

A God of love, compassion, grace, and justice? If God was actually any of those things, the world would not be in the terrible shape it is today. Adam and Eve sinned against God because they were deceived by Satan. God could have shown love, compassion, and grace and simply absolved them of their transgression. Instead he did not show compassion, choosing instead to curse Adam and Eve, and allowing the Earth to fall into a fallen state of suffering and evil. This world is the way it is because of Gods specific choices and a striking lack of love, compassion, and grace. This is all hypothetically presuming that God actually exists of course. I dont believe the Earth is full of evil and suffering because of the fall but since you do, how can you say that God is a God of love, compassion, and grace when the Earth is full of evil and suffering because he did not show compassion, love, and grace when it mattered the most. Had he showed compassion and grace when it mattered, there would have never been any need to send his son to be tortured and killed. Jesus says that we are to forgive our brother 7 times 70 times when he sins against us and yet instead of compassion and grace God chose to curse the Earth because of Adam and Eve disobeying him.

First of all. You have completely misunderstood what I have said. Humans have been given free will by God and God will not violate that free will, this is why Adam and Eve were allowed to CHOOSE whether or not to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Secondly, the world is in the state that it is in because of the effects of sin from the fall. It is our wrongdoing, not God's. You name me some of God's specific choices which have supposedly ruined the world, go ahead - all you will do is make a fool out of yourself because your view on suffering and evil is corrupted and not in the slightest compatible with God. You don't understand the idea of free will, or the idea of love.

SB

MAGSolo wrote:

Sam1995 wrote:Speaking on behalf of Christianity alone, whether or not God is worthy to be worshipped is purely down to your perspective on who God is.
I believe God is a God of love, compassion, grace and justice who loved the world and it's center-piece (mankind) so much that He sent His begotten son to provide salvation for people like you and me. I believe in a God who heals the brokenhearted, lavishes grace upon those who choose to receive it and who has a plan and purpose for the lives of every human being on the planet. Furthermore I believe in a God who can take the most torn apart, broken life and completely transform and renew it into a beautiful new creation as I have seen Him do many times, including my own life.

If that doesn't make God worthy of worship, I don't know what does.

SB

A God of love, compassion, grace, and justice? If God was actually any of those things, the world would not be in the terrible shape it is today. Adam and Eve sinned against God because they were deceived by Satan. God could have shown love, compassion, and grace and simply absolved them of their transgression. Instead he did not show compassion, choosing instead to curse Adam and Eve, and allowing the Earth to fall into a fallen state of suffering and evil. This world is the way it is because of Gods specific choices and a striking lack of love, compassion, and grace. This is all hypothetically presuming that God actually exists of course. I dont believe the Earth is full of evil and suffering because of the fall but since you do, how can you say that God is a God of love, compassion, and grace when the Earth is full of evil and suffering because he did not show compassion, love, and grace when it mattered the most. Had he showed compassion and grace when it mattered, there would have never been any need to send his son to be tortured and killed. Jesus says that we are to forgive our brother 7 times 70 times when he sins against us and yet instead of compassion and grace God chose to curse the Earth because of Adam and Eve disobeying him.

MagSolo, here is what Genesis 3 says:

"3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from [a]any tree of the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5 For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.
8 They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the [c]cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” 10 He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.” 11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” 12 The man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.” 13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” And the woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”"

Eve knew what God told her and Adam. Not to eat the fruit. Why serpent finally deceived her? Becuase she put away God. Why did she not come to God and ask him about what and why serpent says to them? And when finally she saw she was being decived, why she was trying to put the blame on the serpent? If she had obeyed God serpent would not have chance. Also Adam. He also knew no to eat from the tree. And while serpent was trying to decieve Eve he was there with her and watching it all. Why did not he stop Eve? Was he testing God's word that as soon as they eat it they will die? Did Adam think he can be wiser than God? They excluded God when making their decisions. The result? Deceived by serpent.

MAGSolo wrote:

jlay wrote: Because widespread evil and suffering are bad and God is supposed to be good

I dont understand what you mean by account for good and evil and provide a context for them that isnt dependent of human bias

Basically a discussion we've had several times. The bias could be any subjective moral standard. People 'should' not steal because......."I don't like it,"......"it's bad (another question begging presumption) for society,"....

You say God should prevent evil and suffering. I would say that you cannot even have a workable definition of evil and suffering apart from smuggling in the Christian God. Otherwise evil and suffering are meaningless terms. How is evil measured? What is suffering, and why should it matter? If humans are nothing more than the result of meaningless, unguided, natural processess, then why should their suffering be of any consequence to you? Why would it matter if some humans beleived in a creator God? Are humans significant? If so, how? Just because you are consciously aware of your existance doesn't mean your existance has any value. Biologically speaking, we are no more significant than an elephant fart.
Yet, whenever you lament that God is below some standard, you are in fact presuming a standard that only a transcendent, eternal, moral creator could account for.
In this argument, you are presuming that God exist and then judging Him because of evil and suffering. So, this presumption assumes that God is cruel and indifferent. Of course a more logical assumption is that something is wrong between God and man. Not to mention that a finite person could never have the omniscience to know why things have to be the way they are.

MAGSolo wrote:I believe that any God that has the power to prevent widespread evil and suffering and does not do so does not deserve to be praised or worshiped.

Here is where the first SOMEWHAT legitimate question (although, its often a common bad objection against God) comes in. Now, watch me destroy it.

Your argument has a formulation in this fashion or something similar.

1. An all knowing God would know that evil exists
2. An all loving God would want to prevent evil from existing
3. An all powerful God could prevent evil from existing
4. But evil does exist
5. Given that premise 4 is undeniable, we can infer that 1, 2, or all 3 of the alleged God properties mentioned MUST be false
6. Therefore, a God with those properties does not exist or is not worthy to be worshipped

Isn't this correct?

Heres the rebuttal

A world containing creatures who are significantly free and FREELY perform more good than evil is more valuable all else being equal than a world containing no free creatures AT ALL. Now, God can create FREE creatures, but he can't cause or determine for those creatures to do ONLY what is RIGHT. For IF HE DOES SO than they ARE NOT significantly free AT ALL. The creatures would not do what is RIGHT freely. In order to create creatures who can do moral RIGHT actions, he MUST make them capable of doing moral EVIL. This God in question CAN make them capable of doing moral EVIL, AND at the same time PREVENT them from doing so.

CS Lewis supports my argument as follows

Imagine a wooden beam became soft as grass when used as a weapon, and if air refused to obey me as I attempted to setup in it lies and insults. Such a world is one where wrong actions are impossible in which freedom of the will would be void. If the principal would be carried to its logical conclusion, evil thoughts would be impossible for the cerebral matter in which we use for thinking would refuse its task when attempting to frame them.

Me: So, even though God is all powerful, it is possible, conclusive, and would otherwise be an imperfection of God's superlative abilities in which God in question to create a world with moral good, and NO moral evil.
Therefore there is no inconsistency in of the existence of God who is all knowing, all loving, all powerful, alongside the existence of his creations who freely choose to do evil. Nor is there any necessary connection between the existence of creatures who do evil inconsistent with creatures who deem such a God to be worthy of worship. Since after all, worship of this God is freely done and not forced.


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