Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:So, in your view, there was a time ( whatever time may mean od course) that God existed, not as "THe Father" but simply as "God", yes?

There was a time when God's name was not known, other than the basic terms and El'Shaddai (God Almighty) Before creation what was there? When we read the birth narratives in Matt and Luke we find that one of God's creations is "a son of God" Adam. In a sense God is the Father of all things, by creation. The literal son came on the scene at Luke 1:35 "because of this the child will be called the son of God" (Jesus) also to be the last Adam.

So, Jesus was a son of God like Adam?

Created in the womb of Mary, Jesus was not created from clay as Adam was. Son of God like Adam....NO, Jesus completed what the first Adam could not.

John, could you prove to me from scripture that Jesus was "created in the womb of Mary"?

Luke 1:35 "The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God."
As I see it "the most high" is not Jesus attempting to beget himself. To be begotten and the beggettor would contradict Luke 1:35.
I have more if you like.
Did God at one point say he was the son of God? If so then who is the God that Jesus talked about, not only talked .. but taught!!

Very tiresome. Although God is One, He cannot be put into a box. Those against the Trinity would ignore many validations in Scripture. And to buttress their belief, they necessarily put Him into their own false theological box. Continuously, they accuse Christians of believing in three Gods, of which they most certainly do not. Cherry picking Bible verses while conveniently ignoring others relating to the Trinity, ain't cutting it!

John, please give this a read. I pray that God will use this to speak the truth to you.
Understanding the Incarnation

Lets be clear and honest and admit that every denomination tends to "proof read" AND interpret the texts that they view justifies their doctrines.
The issue is how key passages ARE interpreted and why.
Are we seeing the Trinity because it is there or because we bring it with us?
Are we NOT seeing the Trinity because we have a preconceived notion of what (erroneously) the Trinity is?

PaulSacramento wrote:Lets be clear and honest and admit that every denomination tends to "proof read" AND interpret the texts that they view justifies their doctrines.
The issue is how key passages ARE interpreted and why.
Are we seeing the Trinity because it is there or because we bring it with us?
Are we NOT seeing the Trinity because we have a preconceived notion of what (erroneously) the Trinity is?

No - the Old Testament is a thoroughly Trinitarian in its revelation of God’s Oneness. The problem resides with Unitarian’s interloping in the Masoretic OT text that came about during the Middle Ages. An example of this is how Maimonides [1], during the Middles Ages, changed the Shema to read yachid instead of Echad (Note [1] Quote below on Maimonides below)

Several words such as pronouns and tenses regarding God were changed in the Masoretic text that slanted the OT to read according to Medieval Rabbinic Judaic Unitarianism thought. This carried over to the English Translations of the OT as well too. This was an attempt to counter who Jesus is as to his true nature.

In the OT, you have the Preincarnate Jesus speaking in many places and one is in found in Zec 12:1-10

Zec 12:1, 10 - "...Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him....10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn." NASB

Now notice these verses in the NT...

John 19:34. 37, "But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out....37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED." NASB

Rev 1:7, "BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen." NASB

Heb 1:2, 3. "...in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" NASB

Again, you have the Preincarnate Jesus speaking this in:

Isa 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. 11 "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me." NASB

The translation of the generic Hebrew word for Messenger, Malek, into angel was another translation error when Malek was used in context of YHWH or Malek YHWH. Moses encountered the Malek (Messenger or word) YHWH in the burning bush.

The NIV Reader's Translation of the following verses helps capture the nuances of the Greek NT text:

John 1:1, 2, 3, "In the beginning, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were made through him. Nothing that has been made was made without him...14 The Word became a human being. He made his home with us. We have seen his glory. It is the glory of the one and only Son. He came from the Father. And he was full of grace and truth." NIrV

The word Logos used in John 1:1 means - word as the expression of intelligence and disclosure of wisdom, reason, intelligence to get things done, i.e. put together, carry out the will etc..

As stated before and the OT verifies, God’s self existent Nature means that God’s Oneness cannot be put into a Unitarian box of prejudice. YHWH was known as the Majestic Plural One – His oneness consisted of plurality of Echad which Jesus revealed later as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is God’s Oneness and each attribute of God’s nature (essence) is capable if self existence in order to perform and do God’s (His) own will. Hence, you have the expression such as Arm of the Lord, or Word, and pronouns such as us, I, we, you/he, and third person speech used in the OT when God speaks to get something done. For example, God alone alone created the universe and all that is in it as Isa 44:24, Isa 45:12, Job 9:8, and Jer 51:15 states. Notice Jer 51:15 and three key words used in that verse...
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[1]

Article quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides

Maimonides's Mishneh Torah is considered by traditionalist Jews even today as one of the chief authoritative codifications of Jewish law and ethics. It is exceptional for its logical construction, concise and clear expression and extraordinary learning, so that it became a standard against which other later codifications were often measured. It is still closely studied in Rabbinic yeshivot (academies). A popular medieval saying that also served as his epitaph states, From Mosheh (of the Torah) to Mosheh (Maimonides) there was none like Mosheh. It chiefly referred to his Rabbinic writings.

But Maimonides was also one of the most influential figures in medieval Jewish philosophy. His brilliant adaptation of Aristotelian thought to Biblical faith deeply impressed later Jewish thinkers, and had an unexpected immediate historical impact. Some more acculturated Jews in the century that followed his death, particularly in Spain, sought to apply Maimonides's Aristotelianism in ways that undercut traditionalist belief and observance, giving rise to an intellectual controversy in Spanish and southern French Jewish circles…

Well, the REAL and most important question relating to the Trinity is: Can you believe that Jesus was God's Son, was crucified for our sins, was raised and seen by many, is in heaven awaiting His return - can you believe all of that BUT not also believe Jesus was God, AND be saved? I say no!

If you do not have faith in God as He truly is, how can you be saved? Can one believe in God the Father, believe Jesus was merely a prophet or a devine messenger or whatever - and still be saved? Why was He to be called "IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US," if He was not also God? His reference to Himself, "I Am," means He that He is eternal, has always existed. Of course these are just a few evidences that He is God, but the big Q is: is it necessary to believe Jesus is God to be saved? I say YES!

B. W. wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Lets be clear and honest and admit that every denomination tends to "proof read" AND interpret the texts that they view justifies their doctrines.
The issue is how key passages ARE interpreted and why.
Are we seeing the Trinity because it is there or because we bring it with us?
Are we NOT seeing the Trinity because we have a preconceived notion of what (erroneously) the Trinity is?

No - the Old Testament is a thoroughly Trinitarian in its revelation of God’s Oneness. The problem resides with Unitarian’s interloping in the Masoretic OT text that came about during the Middle Ages. An example of this is how Maimonides [1], during the Middles Ages, changed the Shema to read yachid instead of Echad (Note [1] Quote below on Maimonides below)

Several words such as pronouns and tenses regarding God were changed in the Masoretic text that slanted the OT to read according to Medieval Rabbinic Judaic Unitarianism thought. This carried over to the English Translations of the OT as well too. This was an attempt to counter who Jesus is as to his true nature.

In the OT, you have the Preincarnate Jesus speaking in many places and one is in found in Zec 12:1-10

Zec 12:1, 10 - "...Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him....10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn." NASB

Now notice these verses in the NT...

John 19:34. 37, "But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out....37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED." NASB

Rev 1:7, "BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen." NASB

Heb 1:2, 3. "...in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" NASB

Again, you have the Preincarnate Jesus speaking this in:

Isa 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. 11 "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me." NASB

The translation of the generic Hebrew word for Messenger, Malek, into angel was another translation error when Malek was used in context of YHWH or Malek YHWH. Moses encountered the Malek (Messenger or word) YHWH in the burning bush.

The NIV Reader's Translation of the following verses helps capture the nuances of the Greek NT text:

John 1:1, 2, 3, "In the beginning, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were made through him. Nothing that has been made was made without him...14 The Word became a human being. He made his home with us. We have seen his glory. It is the glory of the one and only Son. He came from the Father. And he was full of grace and truth." NIrV

The word Logos used in John 1:1 means - word as the expression of intelligence and disclosure of wisdom, reason, intelligence to get things done, i.e. put together, carry out the will etc..

As stated before and the OT verifies, God’s self existent Nature means that God’s Oneness cannot be put into a Unitarian box of prejudice. YHWH was known as the Majestic Plural One – His oneness consisted of plurality of Echad which Jesus revealed later as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is God’s Oneness and each attribute of God’s nature (essence) is capable if self existence in order to perform and do God’s (His) own will. Hence, you have the expression such as Arm of the Lord, or Word, and pronouns such as us, I, we, you/he, and third person speech used in the OT when God speaks to get something done. For example, God alone alone created the universe and all that is in it as Isa 44:24, Isa 45:12, Job 9:8, and Jer 51:15 states. Notice Jer 51:15 and three key words used in that verse...
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[1]

Article quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides

Maimonides's Mishneh Torah is considered by traditionalist Jews even today as one of the chief authoritative codifications of Jewish law and ethics. It is exceptional for its logical construction, concise and clear expression and extraordinary learning, so that it became a standard against which other later codifications were often measured. It is still closely studied in Rabbinic yeshivot (academies). A popular medieval saying that also served as his epitaph states, From Mosheh (of the Torah) to Mosheh (Maimonides) there was none like Mosheh. It chiefly referred to his Rabbinic writings.

But Maimonides was also one of the most influential figures in medieval Jewish philosophy. His brilliant adaptation of Aristotelian thought to Biblical faith deeply impressed later Jewish thinkers, and had an unexpected immediate historical impact. Some more acculturated Jews in the century that followed his death, particularly in Spain, sought to apply Maimonides's Aristotelianism in ways that undercut traditionalist belief and observance, giving rise to an intellectual controversy in Spanish and southern French Jewish circles…

It is a nice thing with Deut 6:4 that both the Hebrew and Masoretic texts use "ECHAD" rather than "YACHAD"... yachad is found in the Hebrew scriptures a whole whopping 12 times and not in Deut 6:4.

Philip wrote:Well, the REAL and most important question relating to the Trinity is: Can you believe that Jesus was God's Son, was crucified for our sins, was raised and seen by many, is in heaven awaiting His return - can you believe all of that BUT not also believe Jesus was God, AND be saved? I say no!

If you do not have faith in God as He truly is, how can you be saved? Can one believe in God the Father, believe Jesus was merely a prophet or a devine messenger or whatever - and still be saved? Why was He to be called "IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US," if He was not also God? His reference to Himself, "I Am," means He that He is eternal, has always existed. Of course these are just a few evidences that He is God, but the big Q is: is it necessary to believe Jesus is God to be saved? I say YES!

I say no. Only a Post biblical Creed will tell you that you have to believe Jesus is God to be saved. NEVER in scripture!!

1stjohn0666 wrote:

Philip wrote:Well, the REAL and most important question relating to the Trinity is: Can you believe that Jesus was God's Son, was crucified for our sins, was raised and seen by many, is in heaven awaiting His return - can you believe all of that BUT not also believe Jesus was God, AND be saved? I say no!

If you do not have faith in God as He truly is, how can you be saved? Can one believe in God the Father, believe Jesus was merely a prophet or a devine messenger or whatever - and still be saved? Why was He to be called "IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US," if He was not also God? His reference to Himself, "I Am," means He that He is eternal, has always existed. Of course these are just a few evidences that He is God, but the big Q is: is it necessary to believe Jesus is God to be saved? I say YES!

I say no. Only a Post biblical Creed will tell you that you have to believe Jesus is God to be saved. NEVER in scripture!!

John, that's not true. First, I came to believe Jesus is God through scripture, not through any "post biblical creed". I don't even know any of the creeds. Second, scripture says one must believe in Jesus to be saved. Not just any Jesus. The object of one's saving faith MUST be the Jesus described in scripture, who is God in the flesh. You have been shown that scripture consistently shows that Jesus must be God. We have gotten beyond the point of reason here. You still deny what is clearly taught in scripture. You are given the evidence which is clearly before you, yet you continue to deny the one person who can save you from your sins. And as such, you are clearly promoting a doctrine that is different from the belief that is most essential to the Christian faith.

RickD wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:

Philip wrote:Well, the REAL and most important question relating to the Trinity is: Can you believe that Jesus was God's Son, was crucified for our sins, was raised and seen by many, is in heaven awaiting His return - can you believe all of that BUT not also believe Jesus was God, AND be saved? I say no!

If you do not have faith in God as He truly is, how can you be saved? Can one believe in God the Father, believe Jesus was merely a prophet or a devine messenger or whatever - and still be saved? Why was He to be called "IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US," if He was not also God? His reference to Himself, "I Am," means He that He is eternal, has always existed. Of course these are just a few evidences that He is God, but the big Q is: is it necessary to believe Jesus is God to be saved? I say YES!

I say no. Only a Post biblical Creed will tell you that you have to believe Jesus is God to be saved. NEVER in scripture!!

John, that's not true. First, I came to believe Jesus is God through scripture, not through any "post biblical creed". I don't even know any of the creeds. Second, scripture says one must believe in Jesus to be saved. Not just any Jesus. The object of one's saving faith MUST be the Jesus described in scripture, who is God in the flesh. You have been shown that scripture consistently shows that Jesus must be God. We have gotten beyond the point of reason here. You still deny what is clearly taught in scripture. You are given the evidence which is clearly before you, yet you continue to deny the one person who can save you from your sins. And as such, you are clearly promoting a doctrine that is different from the belief that is most essential to the Christian faith.

I agree with Rick, I came to believe Jesus was God just by reading the texts, I didn't know any of the creeds before hand and had not stepped into a church in at least 15 years.


Dan

This is the Athanasian Creed which is 500 years after Jesus, and states that for salvation one must believe that Jesus is God.
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are co-eternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshiped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Scripture states differently "believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name." John 20:31 It does not say believe that Jesus is God himself. Trying to find a verse that says believe that Jesus is God for salvation, one will end up reading the Creed above and believing that "post biblical" uninspired document.

1stjohn0666 wrote:This is the Athanasian Creed which is 500 years after Jesus, and states that for salvation one must believe that Jesus is God.
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are co-eternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshiped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Scripture states differently "believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name." John 20:31 It does not say believe that Jesus is God himself. Trying to find a verse that says believe that Jesus is God for salvation, one will end up reading the Creed above and believing that "post biblical" uninspired document.

To say - Jesus is the Christ - Messiah - the son of God is to say that he is God as He himself so said in preincarnate form...

Isa 45:18-25, "For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other. 19 I have not spoken in secret, In a dark place of the earth; I did not say to the seed of Jacob, 'Seek Me in vain'; I, the LORD, speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20 "Assemble yourselves and come; Draw near together, You who have escaped from the nations. They have no knowledge, Who carry the wood of their carved image, And pray to a god that cannot save. 21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. 22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. 24 He shall say, 'Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him. 25 In the LORD all the descendants of Israel Shall be justified, and shall glory."

Isa 48:16, 17, 18, "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me." 17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go. 18 For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.." NKJV

It has nothing to do with creeds or even knowing if these exist - it comes by revelation of the indwelling Holy Spirit who teaches thru means of Holy Spirit common sense... This is one way we can tell non-believers from believers who have the Holy Spirit residing within...

Now, 1stjohn0666 who do you say the Holy Spirit is?
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B. W. wrote: To say - Jesus is the Christ - Messiah - the son of God is to say that he is God as He himself so said in preincarnate form...

Isa 45:18-25, "For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other. 19 I have not spoken in secret, In a dark place of the earth; I did not say to the seed of Jacob, 'Seek Me in vain'; I, the LORD, speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20 "Assemble yourselves and come; Draw near together, You who have escaped from the nations. They have no knowledge, Who carry the wood of their carved image, And pray to a god that cannot save. 21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. 22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. 24 He shall say, 'Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him. 25 In the LORD all the descendants of Israel Shall be justified, and shall glory."

Isa 48:16, 17, 18, "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me." 17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go. 18 For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.." NKJV

It has nothing to do with creeds or even knowing if these exist - it comes by revelation of the indwelling Holy Spirit who teaches thru means of Holy Spirit common sense... This is one way we can tell non-believers from believers who have the Holy Spirit residing within...

Now, 1stjohn0666 who do you say the Holy Spirit is?
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Are you saying that Jesus and not YHWH was the Genesis account creator? If you say Jesus was creator then what of Matt 19:4, Mark 10:6? I see Jesus removing himself from "claiming" to be the Genesis account creator.
I can say the spirit is God or Christ, but the spirit is not a person. Is your spirit another you?

1stjohn wrote:
Are you saying that Jesus and not YHWH was the Genesis account creator? If you say Jesus was creator then what of Matt 19:4, Mark 10:6? I see Jesus removing himself from "claiming" to be the Genesis account creator.

John, this explains how Jesus is the Creator, From:CARM

God created all alone (Isaiah 44:24) - "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone."
All things created by/through Jesus (Colossians 1:16-17) - "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
There is no difficulty here at all when we realize that the Trinity is involved.  The Trinity is the doctrine that God is three persons:  Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  The Son is the Word, which was God and with God (John 1:1), that became flesh in Jesus (John 1:14).  Since Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, and He has two natures, divine and human (Col. 2:9), we can then have Jesus being the creator and God being the creator alone.  In other words, Jesus is God and God created all things alone.

John,
When we read scripture through the lens of Jesus Christ, and who He really is, the contradictions that you seem to see in scripture, begin to disappear.