Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:
John, 20 seconds of searching gave me this:http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons ... logos.html

Strongs is a respected Lexicon. Look near the bottom. I put it in red for you.

Bible Study ToolsOur LibraryLexiconsNew Testament Greek LexiconNew Testament Greek Lexicon - New American StandardLogos
Logos

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 3056
Original Word Word Origin
logoß from (3004)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Logos 4:69,505
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
log'-os Noun Masculine
Definition

of speech
a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
what someone has said
a word
the sayings of God
decree, mandate or order
of the moral precepts given by God
Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
discourse
the act of speaking, speech
the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
a kind or style of speaking
a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
doctrine, teaching
anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
its use as respect to the MIND alone
reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
account, i.e. regard, consideration
account, i.e. reckoning, score
account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
reason would
reason, cause, ground
In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates achanging universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose inJohn 1.

Here are the usages in scripture that the lexicon you looked that total in 332 usages and NONE are a person!!
NAS Word Usage - Total: 332
account 7, account* 1, accounting 2, accounts 2, answer 1, appearance 1, complaint 1, exhortation* 1, have to do 1, instruction 1, length* 1, matter 4, matters 1, message 10, news 3, preaching 1, question 2, reason 2, reasonable 1, remark 1, report 1, said 1, say 1, saying 4, sayings 1, speaker 1, speech 10, statement 18, story 1, talk 1, teaching 2, thing 2, things 1, utterance 2, what he says 1, what* 1, word 179, words 61

Strong's is a concordance not a lexicon.

PaulSacramento wrote:"So, IF I read you correctly, there was no Son of God until the person Jesus was born from Mary, yes?

Yes Luke 1:35

1stjohn0666 wrote:

RickD wrote:
John, 20 seconds of searching gave me this:http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons ... logos.html

Strongs is a respected Lexicon. Look near the bottom. I put it in red for you.

Bible Study ToolsOur LibraryLexiconsNew Testament Greek LexiconNew Testament Greek Lexicon - New American StandardLogos
Logos

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 3056
Original Word Word Origin
logoß from (3004)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Logos 4:69,505
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
log'-os Noun Masculine
Definition

of speech
a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
what someone has said
a word
the sayings of God
decree, mandate or order
of the moral precepts given by God
Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
discourse
the act of speaking, speech
the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
a kind or style of speaking
a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
doctrine, teaching
anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
its use as respect to the MIND alone
reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
account, i.e. regard, consideration
account, i.e. reckoning, score
account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
reason would
reason, cause, ground
In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates achanging universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose inJohn 1.

Here are the usages in scripture that the lexicon you looked that total in 332 usages and NONE are a person!!
NAS Word Usage - Total: 332
account 7, account* 1, accounting 2, accounts 2, answer 1, appearance 1, complaint 1, exhortation* 1, have to do 1, instruction 1, length* 1, matter 4, matters 1, message 10, news 3, preaching 1, question 2, reason 2, reasonable 1, remark 1, report 1, said 1, say 1, saying 4, sayings 1, speaker 1, speech 10, statement 18, story 1, talk 1, teaching 2, thing 2, things 1, utterance 2, what he says 1, what* 1, word 179, words 61

1stjohn,
According to Strong's, the greek word "Logos" is used 179 times as "word". See red above. And in the definition that I posted from Strong's, it says in the book of John that Logos DENOTES the person of Jesus Christ:

denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates achanging universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose inJohn 1.

So, Logos means "word" 179 times in the NAS translation. Its usage in the book of John, is included in the 179 times. So, Logos means "word". And, in John, "Word" means the person of Jesus Christ. 1stjohn, this is not rocket surgery. It's elementary my dear Watson! You do understand this, don't you?

1stjohn wrote:
Strong's is a concordance not a lexicon.

You ARE joking, right? You can surely see that Strong's Exhaustive Concordance has a built in Hebrew and Greek Lexicon? You do see this?

This just goes to show how utterly closed minded you are to the truth. This just boggles my mind.

If you fail to see this simple logic, you are not only spiritually blind, you are logically blind too.

The New American Bible has this to say about the word "logos" in a footnote:

"May denote an internal reasoning process, plan, or intention, as well as an external word, speech, or message."

In Greek, the word "logos" according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary means:

Logos - The expression of thought. As embodying a conception or idea.

According to Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, it also means:

Logos - the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word.

This unfortunately is not what it meant to Greek philosophy. In Greek philosophies such as Stoicism, and Neo-Platonism, "logos" was considered divine. To a Stoic, logos means "the divine principle of life." This is basically a definition of God. In Gnosticism "Logos" was the actual name of one of the intermediary gods.

Makes me wonder if Jesus is God and the mediator, are we buying into Gnostic thoughts and approach to scripture.

http://www.geocities.com/athens/olympus ... inning.htm

A little about Strong's "Strong's Concordance is not a translation of the Bible nor is it intended as a translation tool. The use of Strong's numbers is not a substitute for professional translation of the Bible from Hebrew and Greek into English by those with formal training in ancient languages and the literature of the cultures in which the Bible was written. Since Strong's Concordance identifies the original words in Hebrew and Greek, Strong's numbers are sometimes misinterpreted by those without adequate training to change the Bible from its accurate meaning simply by taking the words out of cultural context. The use of Strong's numbers does not consider figures of speech, metaphors, idioms, common phrases, cultural references, references to historical events, or alternate meanings used by those of the time period to express their thoughts in their own language at the time. As such, professionals and amateurs alike must consult a number of contextual tools to reconstruct these cultural backgrounds. Many scholarly Greek and Hebrew Lexicons (e.g., Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Thayer's Greek Dictionary, and Vine's Bible Dictionary) also use Strong's numbers for cross-referencing, encouraging hermeneutical approaches to study."
Strong's is a concordance NOT a lexicon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong's_Concordance

1stjohn,

Strong's uses:

Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others;

Okay Rick LOL
You can have Strong's "as embodying an idea" LOGOS God's very own spoken word which was with him and was him. God had an idea to save mankind "Christ is the embodiment of Gods idea"

1stjohn0666 wrote:Okay Rick LOL
You can have Strong's "as embodying an idea" LOGOS God's very own spoken word which was with him and was him. God had an idea to save mankind "Christ is the embodiment of Gods idea"

1stjohn,
If this wasn't tied up in the rest of your errant theology, I wouldn't really disagree.

So, while what you wrote above may be a correct way to look at it despite the rest of your heretical Christology, the old saying is proven true:
"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while". Right Rocky?

1stjohn,

I know you like to quote Hebrews 1:5, to try to show erroneously that since Jesus was begotten, he's not God. But, what do you do with Hebrews 1:8:
8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.


God the Father calls Jesus "God". Surely God would know if Jesus is God, right?

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:"So, IF I read you correctly, there was no Son of God until the person Jesus was born from Mary, yes?

Yes Luke 1:35

If there was no Son of God before He was born of Mary, then how do you reconcile that all was created by Him and Through Him ?
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

To name only 3.

1stjohn0666 wrote:How do you interpret "firstborn" in Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"?

Not the same way your cultic logic dictates to the unwary...

So lets begin: Your cultic presupposition interprets "firstborn" used in Col 1:15 to mean "first created" to buttress your cultic and heretical theological vision that Jesus Christ was a created being.

John 1:1, 14 and all the verses in the OT I have used in our debates (such as Isaiah 41:4, Isa 43:10, Isa 44:6, Isa 48:12, Revelation 1:8, 18, Rev 2:8, Rev 21: 6, Rev 22:13, Gen 17:1, Exodus 6:3, Numbers 24:4c) prove that your view is heretical and that you are most likely here playing games with us. So don't play the martyr card with me...

How then can there be no God formed and then God created another god to be worshiped? How is that consistent with the unchanging nature of God? Why would God say in Exodus 20:3-5

"You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me...” NASB

Then create another that is worshiped in heaven AS GOD in Rev 5:10-14. Bowing down to worship one AS GOD, who was a created being, in Heaven no less, is a far cry different than one bowing to some earthly king. Not the same thing at all. You cannot confuse the two types of worship. NO OTHER GOD FORMED, NOR SHALL BE – Isaiah records and yet – you say there was and that it is okay to violate Exodus 20:3, 4, 5. AMAZING and then have the gall to come here and continue to spout your rhetoric – by playing the weeping martyr. Sorry it won’t work with me.

So FYI:

There is a Greek word for "first created" and guess what, Paul did not use that word in Col 1:15. The word Paul did not use is Proto – ktizo which is first born. He used proto-tikto in Col 1:15 and the next verse provides the correct way to render the word. Proto-tikto is used mainly to denote "pre-eminence" and look how it is used in Psalms 89:20, 27 concerning King David who was not a literally First Born child nor is Ephraim in Jer 31:9…

"I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him...I also shall make him My first-born" Ps 89 NASB.

Proto-ikzo is a title of preeminence. In other words Col 1:15 says - He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

This means Jesus was the pre-eminent one involved in creation, which is consistent with the next verse that defines how the word Proto-tikto is to be correctly interpreted:

Col 1:16 - For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. NASB (See Hebrews 1:3 too…)

So if Jesus was a created being as you contend - how could verse 16 - For by Him all things were created - be true? How could a non-existent person be around to create the world before he was ever created. Please note John 1:1, 3, 10.

Next, How can Hebrews 1:3 be true as well and God not be guilty of making another God - the very thing he swore he would never do?

You are is grave error and leading other astray, as evidence by what you written here on this forum proves that you face a strict judgment come judgment day and are currently facing eternal never ending recompense, unless you repent and turn to the real Jesus Christ who is the only one that can save you from the wrath to come.
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RickD wrote:1stjohn,

I know you like to quote Hebrews 1:5, to try to show erroneously that since Jesus was begotten, he's not God. But, what do you do with Hebrews 1:8:
8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.


God the Father calls Jesus "God". Surely God would know if Jesus is God, right?

Heb 1:8,9 are Psalm quotes from the OT Psalm 45:6,7 We will have to use both texts to establish a simple truth!
Psalm 45:6,7 "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows."

Heb 1:8,9 "But of the Son [He says], "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

It only makes sense that Jesus over and over again claimed to have a God, so to does the Psalmist and the writer to the Hebrews. Thus I conclude Jesus has a God!!

PaulSacramento wrote: If there was no Son of God before He was born of Mary, then how do you reconcile that all was created by Him and Through Him ?
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:3? All things came into being through the Fathers voice "Gen 1:3 Then God said" and apart from the Fathers voice nothing came into being that has come into being.

For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

The Greek translated for us into English has a translation error "For BY (en)" should be "For in (en)" We go on a little further "both in (en) heaven"
Jesus is not the creator, YHWH is the creator and he alone did it Isa 44:24 "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone
Here is what Jesus says about who created and it was not him!!
Mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE."
Matt 19:4 words of Jesus "And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE"
the text does not say "I who" eliminating Jesus, or "we who" eliminating the trinity, or multiple persons involved. YHWH who is not Jesus did the creating.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
To name only 3.

existing in the "form" of God is like "the image of God" the form of something is not the original.

B. W. wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:How do you interpret "firstborn" in Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"?

Not the same way your cultic logic dictates to the unwary...

So lets begin: Your cultic presupposition interprets "firstborn" used in Col 1:15 to mean "first created" to buttress your cultic and heretical theological vision that Jesus Christ was a created being.

John 1:1, 14 and all the verses in the OT I have used in our debates (such as Isaiah 41:4, Isa 43:10, Isa 44:6, Isa 48:12, Revelation 1:8, 18, Rev 2:8, Rev 21: 6, Rev 22:13, Gen 17:1, Exodus 6:3, Numbers 24:4c) prove that your view is heretical and that you are most likely here playing games with us. So don't play the martyr card with me...

How then can there be no God formed and then God created another god to be worshiped? How is that consistent with the unchanging nature of God? Why would God say in Exodus 20:3-5

"You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me...” NASB

Then create another that is worshiped in heaven AS GOD in Rev 5:10-14. Bowing down to worship one AS GOD, who was a created being, in Heaven no less, is a far cry different than one bowing to some earthly king. Not the same thing at all. You cannot confuse the two types of worship. NO OTHER GOD FORMED, NOR SHALL BE – Isaiah records and yet – you say there was and that it is okay to violate Exodus 20:3, 4, 5. AMAZING and then have the gall to come here and continue to spout your rhetoric – by playing the weeping martyr. Sorry it won’t work with me.

So FYI:

There is a Greek word for "first created" and guess what, Paul did not use that word in Col 1:15. The word Paul did not use is Proto – ktizo which is first born. He used proto-tikto in Col 1:15 and the next verse provides the correct way to render the word. Proto-tikto is used mainly to denote "pre-eminence" and look how it is used in Psalms 89:20, 27 concerning King David who was not a literally First Born child nor is Ephraim in Jer 31:9…

"I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him...I also shall make him My first-born" Ps 89 NASB.

Proto-ikzo is a title of preeminence. In other words Col 1:15 says - He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

This means Jesus was the pre-eminent one involved in creation, which is consistent with the next verse that defines how the word Proto-tikto is to be correctly interpreted:

Col 1:16 - For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. NASB (See Hebrews 1:3 too…)

So if Jesus was a created being as you contend - how could verse 16 - For by Him all things were created - be true? How could a non-existent person be around to create the world before he was ever created. Please note John 1:1, 3, 10.

Next, How can Hebrews 1:3 be true as well and God not be guilty of making another God - the very thing he swore he would never do?

You are is grave error and leading other astray, as evidence by what you written here on this forum proves that you face a strict judgment come judgment day and are currently facing eternal never ending recompense, unless you repent and turn to the real Jesus Christ who is the only one that can save you from the wrath to come.
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I did not say "first created" I said "firstborn"
Dan 7:13,14 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and [men of every] language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed."
The similarity of Daniels vision is found in:
Rev 5:11-14 "Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, [be] blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped."

God has a command found in Heb 1:6 "And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
Would you conclude that God himself is violating his own commandments? Who is the one that sits on the throne? Who is the lamb?
They cannot be "the same being" they are distinct and separate individuals.

1stjohn0666 wrote:

RickD wrote:1stjohn,

I know you like to quote Hebrews 1:5, to try to show erroneously that since Jesus was begotten, he's not God. But, what do you do with Hebrews 1:8:
8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.


God the Father calls Jesus "God". Surely God would know if Jesus is God, right?

Heb 1:8,9 are Psalm quotes from the OT Psalm 45:6,7 We will have to use both texts to establish a simple truth!
Psalm 45:6,7 "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows."

Heb 1:8,9 "But of the Son [He says], "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

It only makes sense that Jesus over and over again claimed to have a God, so to does the Psalmist and the writer to the Hebrews. Thus I conclude Jesus has a God!!

Hebrews 1:2, same chapter and in context, contradicts your claim...

The following verses also controdict your false JW and THE WAY's assumptions and poor scholarship...

Isa 44:24, Isa 45:12, Isa 45:18; Jer 51:15, John 1:3; 1 Cor 8:6; Eph 3:9; Col 1:16-17 The conclusion is that you are in deep error and need to repent turning to the real Jesus Christ who can forgive you of leading others astray.

Bible is clear - only God created all things; therefore, Hebrews 1:2 ties into the rest of the chapter as the quote below explains

Quoted below from this Link...(The Hebrews author) exalts the Son on the basis of His radical distinction from the created order of Heaven and the angels. Hebrews 1:2 has already said that it was through the Son that the universe was made. The angels were mere spectators when the world was made (Job 38:7), but the universe came "through" the Son's agency. Lest we understand the Son's role in creation as being passive, the inspired author quotes the Father as saying:

You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundations of the earth;

And the heavens are the work of your hands

Thus, the Son is given the same active role in creation attributed to YHWH in Psalm 102. The Son is both agent and active participant in creation. He is, therefore, vastly superior to the angels, who are "ministering spirits" and "servants" (verse 14). First century readers would have had no difficulty in understanding who "laid the foundations of the earth" - only YHWH was the hands-on creator of all things. If Christ is given this honor, He must have been YHWH - yet somehow distinct from the Father who here addresses Him.

2. The Father calls the Son "Lord." While "Lord" (Greek kurios) can merely be a title ascribed to men or angels, it is also the word used in most LXX manuscripts to render the Divine Name, YHWH. This is likely the sense it carries in the LXX translation of Psalm 102. When used in the Bible as an honorific, "lord" always signifies that the one addressed is superior in rank or social station to the speaker. There are no exceptions. Thus, if the Father calls the Son "lord" in this sense, it would mean that He acknowledges the Son as superior to Himself in rank. While this usage is possible, it would seem to contradict the numerous times the Father is spoken as being superior to the Son. It is better, then, to understand "Lord" to mean YHWH, as it was in its original setting.

The person here addressed, as the Lord or Jehovah, and as the Maker of the heavens and the earth, is the same with the Son spoken to, and of, before; for the words are a continuation of the speech to him, though they are taken from another psalm, from Psalms 102:25. The phrase, "thou, Lord" is taken from Psalms 102:12 and is the same with, "O my God", Psalms 102:24 and whereas it is there said, "of old", and here, in the beginning, the sense is the same; and agreeably to the Septuagint, and the apostle, Jarchi interprets it by "at", or "from the beginning"; and so the Targum paraphrases it, "from the beginning", that the creatures were created, &c. that in the beginning of the creation, which is the apostle's meaning; and shows the eternity of Christ, the Lord, the Creator of the earth, who must exist before the foundation of the world; and confutes the notion of the eternity of the world: and the rounding of it shows that the earth is the lower part of the creation; and denotes the stability of it; and points out the wisdom of the Creator in laying such a foundation; and proves the deity of Christ, by whom that, and all things in it, were made. Gill

1stjohn0666 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote: If there was no Son of God before He was born of Mary, then how do you reconcile that all was created by Him and Through Him ?
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:3? All things came into being through the Fathers voice "Gen 1:3 Then God said" and apart from the Fathers voice nothing came into being that has come into being.

For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

The Greek translated for us into English has a translation error "For BY (en)" should be "For in (en)" We go on a little further "both in (en) heaven"

Jesus is not the creator, YHWH is the creator and he alone did it Isa 44:24 "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone

Here is what Jesus says about who created and it was not him!!

Mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE."

Matt 19:4 words of Jesus "And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE"

the text does not say "I who" eliminating Jesus, or "we who" eliminating the trinity, or multiple persons involved. YHWH who is not Jesus did the creating.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
To name only 3.

existing in the "form" of God is like "the image of God" the form of something is not the original.

Your quote is completely out of context and thus a strawman argument. You need your head examined. Look at the context…

…It is about Pharisees testing Jesus concerning marriage and divorce and contains nothing to do with Jesus claiming he was a created being as you contend…

Mark 10:2 Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife.
Mark 10:3 And He answered and said to them, "What did Moses command you?"
Mark 10:4 They said, "Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY."
Mark 10:5 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
Mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
Mark 10:7 "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,
Mark 10:8 AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Mark 10:9 "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

Mat 19:3 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?"
Mat 19:4 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,
Mat 19:5 and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?
Mat 19:6 "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Mat 19:7 They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?"
Mat 19:8 He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
Mat 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Mat 19:10 The disciples *said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry."

Next read the context of Philippians 2:5-8 which you misquoted as well and note...

Php 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

There is truly none like God as only he can save as it is written ... Isa 43:11 and Isa 45:21 and John 10:30 and Titus 2:13

...again notice Titus 3:4-6, 2 Peter 3:18; 1 John 4:14 then toss in Isa 44:6 and Rev 1:8, 17, 18

Note also -- Rev 21:6, Rev 22:13; Isa 41:4, Isa 43:10, Isa 48:12

Lastly, your out of context interpretations demonstrate how willing you are to blaspheme. You sir are walking on dangerous ground.
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One last note - Jesus was part of the 'Our' that created in Gen 1:26 and therefore part of the 'HE' mentioned in your textual wrangling. Recall, that God alone created all things and the 'Our' of Gen 1:26 cannot refer to angelic beings in any fashion. So it would be proper for Jesus to speak in second person speech in Mark 10:6. YHWH very often in the OT uses second and third person speech when speaking in various contexts.