Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:27 pm**

RickD wrote:Bippy, as far as this whole praying to Mary, asking for her to pray for us, goes, can you back up from scripture, that believers should ask anyone who has died, besides Christ, to pray for us? And, can you give any proof from scripture that those who have gone to be with The Lord, can even hear us speak to them?

I think that scripture plainly says that Our lord is The Lord of the living and not of the dead. It's incredible that u would even ask that Rick. Anyone that has a bible handy can find that every where within the bible.

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (Matthew 22:32)

In Mark 9:4,
This is the transfiguration of Jesus. When Jesus was transfigured did he not communicate with Elijah and Moses?
Rick do Elijah and Moses seem like a couple of dead dudes to you? They seem very much alive to everyone on earth reading that verse.
These are just some of many verses that show That they aren't dead.
Revelation 5:8 and 8:3 plainly state that the saints and angels present our prayers to God in the form of incense. Saints pray alongside of us to Jesus as our intercessors. They do not stand "between" us and God. And they can pray for us when we are asleep, 24/7. There is indeed one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ. And what is He the mediator of? Paul says in Hebrews 9:15 and Hebrews 12:24 that Jesus is the mediator of THE NEW COVENANT, not prayer. Intercession in prayer does not equate to being the mediator of the New Covenant; they are 2 entirely different things. The saints are equal to the angels, and are His sons, according to Luke 20:35-36. John 17:20-23 says that the saints are one with God, and that He has given them HIS glory.

Posted: **Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:35 pm**

Philip wrote:Do people in heaven pray for those on earth? I used to think not, but have reconsidered. But I do know that we are NOT to pray to saints - ANY saints.

From Randy Alcorn's Book "Heaven" (p. 71):

"Based upon scriptural evidence, I believe that departed saints in the present heaven DO intercede in prayer - at least sometimes - for those of us still on earth.

Christ, the God-man, is in Heaven, at the right hand of God, interceding for people on Earth (Romans 8:34), which tells us there is at least on person who has died and gone to Heaven and is now praying for those on earth. The martyrs in Heaven also pray to God (Revelation 6:10), asking him to take specific action on earth. They are praying for God's justice on the earth, which has intercessory implications for Christians now suffering here. The sense of connection and loyalty to the body of Christ - and concern for the saints on earth - would likely be enhanced, not diminished, by being in Heaven (Ephesians 3:15). In any case, Revelation 6 makes it clear that some who have died an are now in Heaven are praying concerning what is happening on earth.

If prayer is simply talking to God, presumably we will pray more in Heaven than we do now - not less. And given our righteous state in Heaven, our prayers will be more effective than ever (James 5:16). Revelation 5:8 speaks of the "prayers of the saints" in a context that many include saints in Heaven, not just on earth. WE ARE NEVER TOLD TO PRAY TO THE SAINTS, BUT ONLY TO GOD. Yet the saints may well be praying for us."

Alcorn states that: "If the martyrs in Heaven know that God hasn't yet brought judgement on their persecutors (Revelation 6:9-11), it seems evident that the inhabitants of the present Heaven can see what's happening on Earth, at least to some extent. When Babylon is brought down, an ahgel points to events happening on Earth and says, "Rejoice over here, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! Gd has judged her for the way she treated you" )Revelation 18:2)). That the angel specifically addresses people living in Heaven indicates they're aware of what's happening on Earth."

"Further, there is "the roar of a great multitude in Heaven shouting: Hallelujah!" and praising God for specific events of judgement that have just taken place on Earth (Revelation 1(:1-5). Again, the saints in Heaven are clearly observing what is happening on earth."

Alcorn references the story of King Saul and the witch of Endor, saying "Samuel remembered what Saul had done before Samuel died, and he was aware of what had happened since he died (1 Samuel 28:16-19). Though God could have briefed Samuel on all this, it seems likely the prophet knew simply because those in Heaven are aware of what happens on earth."

Alcorn references Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration, saying, "They seemed fully aware of the dram they'd stepped into, of what was currently transpiring on earth, and of God's redemptive play about to be accomplished."

Alcorn also references Abraham and Lazarus seeing the rich man in Hell: "If it is possible, at least in some cases, to see Hell from Heaven, why would people be unable to see Earth from Heaven?"

This exactly why I showed my bible study group that no where in the Hail Mary prayer do we pray to Mary. We are asking her to pray for us

Since she isn't dead but very much alive.

Posted: **Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:40 pm**

bippy123 wrote:
RickD wrote:Bippy, as far as this whole praying to Mary, asking for her to pray for us, goes, can you back up from scripture, that believers should ask anyone who has died, besides Christ, to pray for us? And, can you give any proof from scripture that those who have gone to be with The Lord, can even hear us speak to them?
I think that scripture plainly says that Our lord is The Lord of the living and not of the dead. It's incredible that u would even ask that Rick. Anyone that has a bible handy can find that every where within the bible.

Be that as it may, here's a link that provides scriptural support.

Posted: **Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:55 pm**

Philip wrote:I do find many teachings of the Catholic Church, its teachings about the papacy and Peter, Papal Infallibility, about Mary, to be unscriptural. And so I'm re-posting some very important questions and materials John Ankerberg has assembled here - many of them referencing official Catholic Church documents: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =3&t=38379

Philip, unscriptural according to whose interpretations ? The apostolic fathers?
The early Church Fathers, or John ankerberg's interpretation or the interpretation of the reformers of the 16th century?
This can't be stressed enough. The bible didnt just fall out of the sky with an inspired table of contents.
It took a church and a magisterium to bind and loose scripture, to put together the New Testament that all Christians read .

If interpretation of scripture is a personal thing then who are we to say that Mormons are wrong or jehovas witness's are wrong? Do they not interpret scripture personally also. The apostolic fathers and early Church fathers would be pulling their hair out if people were running around in their time interpreting scripture personally. It would be an alien practice to them.
If I wanted to interpret scripture myself whats to stop me from interpreting it my own way and then starting my own church. Voila, a new church with its own set of scriptural interpretations that separate us from our fellow Christians on Sunday.

This is why Christ gave the power to bind and loose to mainly one person but also to the other 12.
Martin Luther wanted to take out revelations, the book of James and other gospels and if his fellow reformers didn't intervene he would have done this and was well within his PERSONAL interpretation to do it. The original Protestant bible had the deuterocanonicals in them just as they had them in the original bible pit together by the Catholic Church in the early 400's ad, but were slowly phased out of the Protestant bible by first sending them to the appendix area, then by the 1800's. completely taken out all together.
When the apostles preached the Old Testament to the world which bible did they preach from?
It was the Septuagint which contained all 7 deutero books.
If its good enough for the apostles of Christ it's good enough for me and it should have been good enough for the reformers.
Most of our differences stem from interpretation .
Who has been given the authority to interpret scripture?
The church or every person on earth.
This is why we have so many differences today between different churches.
This is also why we are separated on Sunday when we worship our lord and savior.

For the first 1054 years of Christianity all Christians were united .
For the first 1517 years we were all basically one.
What happened?
Authority of interpretation for one thing.
Who did Christ give the power to bind and loose?

Posted: **Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:01 pm**

Silvertusk wrote:
bippy123 wrote:
Silvertusk wrote:
bippy123 wrote:Lets hear what a catholic priest is taught about the coredemtrix teaching directly from his mouth.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.p ... Redemptrix

#2
Apr 29, '05, 10:27 am
Fr. Vincent Serpa
Catholic Answers Apologist

Join Date: May 4, 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 4,040
Re: Mary as Co-Redemptrix?
Dear Un,

The Church does not teach that we are redeemed by Mary. That would be heresy. It is important to realize that co-redemptrix does not mean co-equal. She co-operated in His mission of redeeming the world. He alone is the redeemer. She co-operated by the fact that the Father chose her to be the channel through which His Son entered the human race. She gave birth to Him and sustained Him through His childhood until adulthood. This is truly co-operation and this is all that is really meant by “co-redemptrix.” Because it is so easy to misunderstand this term, the Church has not made it an official title.

As for all the “Hail Marys” in the rosary, we are asking her to pray for us, but our thoughts are on the mysteries of her Son’s life. In repeating the words: “Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you…,” we are only reiterating what the Father instructed the Angel Gabriel to say to her. They are God’s words.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.
Does not mean that Mary is divine - or that we have to pray to her - because lets face it she is dead. Or that we have to pray through anyone for that matter. God ripped the veil in the temple - there is no one standing between me and my God.
Sorry Silvertusk, but our God is the God of the living not of the dead. No one said there is anyone standing in front of you and God. Do you not pray for others and do you not ask others to pray for u ?
Do not the seraphim carry our prayers to the throne of God?
The bible that we both read says this much, and it also says the prayers of the righteous carry greater weight with The Lord.
Who is more righteous, us sinners here on earth or the angels and saints in heaven who have their sins and the effects of their sins taken away from them. You can't just follow the parts of scripture that you agree with and sis are the rest.
Did not ignatius of Antioch talk about the eucharist and call it the medicine of immortality? He was a student of John the apostle. Now who will u agree with, someone that personally knew the apostles and understand the interpretation of scripture as taught to them by the apostles or someone that came 1500 years after Christ. Ill take the students of the apostles any day as they were in the position to understand fully what the apostles meant instead of me personally interpreting it myself. I wanna know what the original Christians believed and were taught to worship by the apostles.
You know the apostles, the ones with the power to bind and loose?

What was ignatius of Antioch taught tobelieve?
What was polycarp taught to believe?
What was clement of Rome taught to believe?

And why do so many of our great appologists use their writings to show that the earliest Christiants believed in the divinity of Christ and ignore all of the other things they were taught?

What Iraneaus taught by the apostolic fathers?
What was Justin Martyr taught by the apostolic fathers?

It's almost like some people are allergic to some of their teachings and are not allergic to the rest of their teachings?
This is early Christian it's folks and I specifically mentioned these early Christians so no one would use the excuse that Christian it's was hijacked by Constantine 300 years later.

There are no saints in heaven, Not yet. Not until Judgement day. And even if they were they certainly do not have power to carry my prayers to God. That is just ludicrous. God does not need anyone to carry my prayers to him. He can hear my prayers fine and listens to them fine. Of course he may say No - but I do not need any dead saints to pray to to speak to God.

But I do have people praying for me - and they are alive and well on earth.

Silvertusk, it clearly says this in revelations . If u think its ludicrous then you agree with what Luther said about this and that is why Luther wanted revelations thrown out of the bible completely.
Your view is a modern view.
In revelations it clearly says that the seraphim, the angels closest to Gods throne and whose meaning is the burning ones, carry prayers to the throne of God. If you have a problem with this then you have aproblem with revelations .
This is also why Luther had the deuteros sent to the appendix of the bible, because Maccabees agrees with what is being said in revelations.

Ask yourself Silver, what did the early Christains do for over 350 years to get them through without a canonized bible?
Whose authority did they rely on?
Again we go back to Christ and the power to bind and loose.

Posted: **Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:57 pm**

RickD wrote:
Bippy, as far as this whole praying to Mary, asking for her to pray for us, goes, can you back up from scripture, that believers should ask anyone who has died, besides Christ, to pray for us? And, can you give any proof from scripture that those who have gone to be with The Lord, can even hear us speak to them?

Bippy wrote:
I think that scripture plainly says that Our lord is The Lord of the living and not of the dead. It's incredible that u would even ask that Rick. Anyone that has a bible handy can find that every where within the bible.

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (Matthew 22:32)

Bippy, you still haven't shown from scripture where we are told to ask those who have died to pray to Jesus for us. I'm not arguing that believers aren't eternally alive in Christ. Where are we told in scripture that we're supposed to speak to those who have died? The closest I can find is necromancy. And that's forbidden.

Posted: **Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:58 pm**

bippy123 wrote:
Silvertusk wrote:
bippy123 wrote:
Silvertusk wrote:
bippy123 wrote:Lets hear what a catholic priest is taught about the coredemtrix teaching directly from his mouth.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.p ... Redemptrix

#2
Apr 29, '05, 10:27 am
Fr. Vincent Serpa
Catholic Answers Apologist

Join Date: May 4, 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 4,040
Re: Mary as Co-Redemptrix?
Dear Un,

The Church does not teach that we are redeemed by Mary. That would be heresy. It is important to realize that co-redemptrix does not mean co-equal. She co-operated in His mission of redeeming the world. He alone is the redeemer. She co-operated by the fact that the Father chose her to be the channel through which His Son entered the human race. She gave birth to Him and sustained Him through His childhood until adulthood. This is truly co-operation and this is all that is really meant by “co-redemptrix.” Because it is so easy to misunderstand this term, the Church has not made it an official title.

As for all the “Hail Marys” in the rosary, we are asking her to pray for us, but our thoughts are on the mysteries of her Son’s life. In repeating the words: “Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you…,” we are only reiterating what the Father instructed the Angel Gabriel to say to her. They are God’s words.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.
Does not mean that Mary is divine - or that we have to pray to her - because lets face it she is dead. Or that we have to pray through anyone for that matter. God ripped the veil in the temple - there is no one standing between me and my God.
Sorry Silvertusk, but our God is the God of the living not of the dead. No one said there is anyone standing in front of you and God. Do you not pray for others and do you not ask others to pray for u ?
Do not the seraphim carry our prayers to the throne of God?
The bible that we both read says this much, and it also says the prayers of the righteous carry greater weight with The Lord.
Who is more righteous, us sinners here on earth or the angels and saints in heaven who have their sins and the effects of their sins taken away from them. You can't just follow the parts of scripture that you agree with and sis are the rest.
Did not ignatius of Antioch talk about the eucharist and call it the medicine of immortality? He was a student of John the apostle. Now who will u agree with, someone that personally knew the apostles and understand the interpretation of scripture as taught to them by the apostles or someone that came 1500 years after Christ. Ill take the students of the apostles any day as they were in the position to understand fully what the apostles meant instead of me personally interpreting it myself. I wanna know what the original Christians believed and were taught to worship by the apostles.
You know the apostles, the ones with the power to bind and loose?

What was ignatius of Antioch taught tobelieve?
What was polycarp taught to believe?
What was clement of Rome taught to believe?

And why do so many of our great appologists use their writings to show that the earliest Christiants believed in the divinity of Christ and ignore all of the other things they were taught?

What Iraneaus taught by the apostolic fathers?
What was Justin Martyr taught by the apostolic fathers?

It's almost like some people are allergic to some of their teachings and are not allergic to the rest of their teachings?
This is early Christian it's folks and I specifically mentioned these early Christians so no one would use the excuse that Christian it's was hijacked by Constantine 300 years later.

There are no saints in heaven, Not yet. Not until Judgement day. And even if they were they certainly do not have power to carry my prayers to God. That is just ludicrous. God does not need anyone to carry my prayers to him. He can hear my prayers fine and listens to them fine. Of course he may say No - but I do not need any dead saints to pray to to speak to God.

But I do have people praying for me - and they are alive and well on earth.

Silvertusk, it clearly says this in revelations . If u think its ludicrous then you agree with what Luther said about this and that is why Luther wanted revelations thrown out of the bible completely.
Your view is a modern view.
In revelations it clearly says that the seraphim, the angels closest to Gods throne and whose meaning is the burning ones, carry prayers to the throne of God. If you have a problem with this then you have aproblem with revelations .
This is also why Luther had the deuteros sent to the appendix of the bible, because Maccabees agrees with what is being said in revelations.

Ask yourself Silver, what did the early Christains do for over 350 years to get them through without a canonized bible?
Whose authority did they rely on?
Again we go back to Christ and the power to bind and loose.

I really do not have a clue what you are saying here - The early Christians prayed directly to God - and so do I. God being - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I need no forth person to pray to.

Posted: **Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:08 pm**

silvertusk wrote:
I really do not have a clue what you are saying here - The early Christians prayed directly to God - and so do I. God being - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I need no forth person to pray to.

Silver, I guess Bippy thinks Mary has the power to listen simultaneously to the approx. 1 billion Catholics, asking her to pray to Jesus for them. And Catholics don't claim Mary is omnipotent? Sounds like she'd have to be God to do that. Not to mention that scripture makes no mention of dead people being able to hear anyone on earth speak.

Posted: **Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:15 am**

This exactly why I showed my bible study group that no where in the Hail Mary prayer do we pray to Mary. We are asking her to pray for us Since she isn't dead but very much alive.

There's a HUGE difference between saints in Heaven being able to pray for us and for them to know at least some of what is going on here on earth (see my original post above) and in us praying to saints now in Heaven. Nowhere in scripture are we taught to pray to or even to beseech saints in Heaven! And IF saints in heaven regularly pray for those of us on earth, why would we have to beseech any of them to do so? As God (Father, Son and Spirit) has all control and power, why would we direct ANY prayers to anyone other than God, the One with actual power to enact the desires of prayers made within His will? When I need something from any entity or power structure, I go to the HEAD man, the one who actually has the power to do what I desire. Same with God and prayer.

And what knowledge or plea could any saint in Heaven bring before God that He doesn't already perfectly know about or that He already doesn't know how He will respond to it? That saints are needed to bring anything before God for careful consideration implies that somehow God's knowledge is lacking or imperfect. God knows ALL before we even ask! God knew before any saint was born, ALL things and ALL future responses He would make. His knowledge is perfect in ALL things, and always has been!

Posted: **Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:47 am**

RickD wrote:
silvertusk wrote:
I really do not have a clue what you are saying here - The early Christians prayed directly to God - and so do I. God being - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I need no forth person to pray to.
Silver, I guess Bippy thinks Mary has the power to listen simultaneously to the approx. 1 billion Catholics, asking her to pray to Jesus for them. And Catholics don't claim Mary is omnipotent? Sounds like she'd have to be God to do that. Not to mention that scripture makes no mention of dead people being able to hear anyone on earth speak.

Perhaps I should quote Maccabees after all. Oops wait, you don't consider that inspired, my bad.

Philip wrote:
This exactly why I showed my bible study group that no where in the Hail Mary prayer do we pray to Mary. We are asking her to pray for us Since she isn't dead but very much alive.
There's a HUGE difference between saints in Heaven being able to pray for us and for them to know at least some of what is going on here on earth (see my original post above) and in us praying to saints now in Heaven. Nowhere in scripture are we taught to pray to or even to beseech saints in Heaven! And IF saints in heaven regularly pray for those of us on earth, why would we have to beseech any of them to do so? As God (Father, Son and Spirit) has all control and power, why would we direct ANY prayers to anyone other than God, the One with actual power to enact the desires of prayers made within His will? When I need something from any entity or power structure, I go to the HEAD man, the one who actually has the power to do what I desire. Same with God and prayer.

And what knowledge or plea could any saint in Heaven bring before God that He doesn't already perfectly know about or that He already doesn't know how He will respond to it? That saints are needed to bring anything before God for careful consideration implies that somehow God's knowledge is lacking or imperfect. God knows ALL before we even ask! God knew before any saint was born, ALL things and ALL future responses He would make. His knowledge is perfect in ALL things, and always has been!

By that same logic why do you even bother praying at all? After all, God knows everything.

Posted: **Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:54 am**

By that same logic why do you even bother praying at all? After all, God knows everything.

Because He TELLS US TO DO SO!

"... do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to GOD."

Posted: **Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:11 am**

Philip wrote:
By that same logic why do you even bother praying at all? After all, God knows everything.
Because He TELLS US TO DO SO!

"... do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to GOD."

Philip, how dare you!!!

God also tells us in the bible that we should petition believers who have died, to pray for us. Just give me a minute, and I'll find the scripture that says so. Don't hold your breath, this may take a while.

Posted: **Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:18 am**

RickD wrote:
Philip wrote:
By that same logic why do you even bother praying at all? After all, God knows everything.
Because He TELLS US TO DO SO!

"... do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to GOD."
Philip, how dare you!!!

God also tells us in the bible that we should petition believers who have died, to pray for us. Just give me a minute, and I'll find the scripture that says so. Don't hold your breath, this may take a while.

Not at all, you can breathe again, here you go. And here.

Posted: **Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:46 am**

Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:
Philip wrote:
By that same logic why do you even bother praying at all? After all, God knows everything.
Because He TELLS US TO DO SO!

"... do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to GOD."
Philip, how dare you!!!

God also tells us in the bible that we should petition believers who have died, to pray for us. Just give me a minute, and I'll find the scripture that says so. Don't hold your breath, this may take a while.
Not at all, you can breathe again, here you go. And here.

Sorry but absolutely none of that makes any sense to me. Why would God want to make things so complicated. The Catholic Church is like the Pharisees of today. Layering on so much rubbish and legalism to alienate people from Christ.

God made it simple for us. Believe in his son's sacrifice. Let the Holy Spirit work in you to produce fruits. Share in a simple act of rememberance of his sacrifice with bread and wine and worship and love your saviour with body heart and mind. When I read scripture that is all I see. Mary is dead and I do not need a priest to commune with God. That is really all I see in scripture. It really is not complicated. The pope is not Gods voice on earth. If he is then God is a murdering sadistc monster whom I want nothing more to do with.

I am going to stop reading anymore posts on catholism because it really makes my blood boil!!!

Posted: **Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:13 pm**

Silvertusk wrote:
Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:
Philip wrote:
By that same logic why do you even bother praying at all? After all, God knows everything.
Because He TELLS US TO DO SO!

"... do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to GOD."
Philip, how dare you!!!

God also tells us in the bible that we should petition believers who have died, to pray for us. Just give me a minute, and I'll find the scripture that says so. Don't hold your breath, this may take a while.
Not at all, you can breathe again, here you go. And here.
Sorry but absolutely none of that makes any sense to me. Why would God want to make things so complicated. The Catholic Church is like the Pharisees of today. Layering on so much rubbish and legalism to alienate people from Christ.

God made it simple for us. Believe in his son's sacrifice. Let the Holy Spirit work in you to produce fruits. Share in a simple act of rememberance of his sacrifice with bread and wine and worship and love your saviour with body heart and mind. When I read scripture that is all I see. Mary is dead and I do not need a priest to commune with God. That is really all I see in scripture. It really is not complicated. The pope is not Gods voice on earth. If he is then God is a murdering sadistc monster whom I want nothing more to do with.

I am going to stop reading anymore posts on catholism because it really makes my blood boil!!!

Wow!

What do I even say to that, other than just

.

Evidence for God from Science

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