Evidence for God from Science

DowTingTom wrote:

1over137 wrote:DowTingTom,

how do you imagine a perfect created man would be like?

Also, not apple but fruit of the tree of knowledge.

Define perfect in a way that everyone agrees and I can perhaps start to answer your question, although it's rather unfair to ask me as I don't claim to be God.

However, God evidently does know how to create the perfect world, but he allowed it to be messed up almost immediately and, rather than step in to correct it, he's let it get worse ever since, despite loving his creation and having the power to change it. That's not how I'd choose to parent, or to show my love.

I'm not sure what value there is in correcting my use of the word 'apple' which is much easier to type that 'fruit of the tree of knowledge' Do you think that is a literal thing?

Actually, i wanted to understand you as you understand it becuase previously you said: "Why is my new-born child not perfect, if God made 'man' perfect?"

So, how do you understand it? And how you imgaine perfect world would look like?

DowTingTom wrote:This is the question that caused me to leave church.

I've never understood why Jesus had to die.

I've been told it was to pay the price for our sin, but I've never understood to whom the price had to be paid.

I've been told it was because God loves us, but I don't see how killing yourself because you've decided you won't forgive people until you do shows love.

If God is God, then he could forgive without doing anything. That would fit better with the description of love in Corinthians. If love doesn't keep a record of wrongs, why are we all damned by what Adam and Eve did?

If God is God, he wouldn't need to pay a price to anyone before he could do something, so why did he decide he'd have to die?

If God died, why was there not carnage on earth as presumably the devil would take over in the absence of God?

It seems that you have issues with YOUR understanding of why Jesus had to die.
Rightly fully so because I myself have issues with YOUR view of why Jesus had to die.

Granted that the death of Jesus is NOT something easily explained nor should it be since NO death is easily explained, much less the death of the Son of God.

What does John say on the matter:
John 3:

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

B. W. wrote:

DowTingTom wrote:...I am starting from the assumption that the bible is true, and asking questions where what the bible says is at odds with my own sense of morality or what I perceive as the widely held image of God...

So are you actually claiming that your own sense of morality is superior?

Maybe that is the crux of the reason why you left Christianity???
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When you first read about rape victims being stoned in the Old Testament, what is it that made you think 'that doesn't sound right'? (if you thought that at all)?

Of course we have our own morality. God made us in his image. He has morality.

If my morality has issues with something written in [a book] I will of course question the validity of the book. I guess that's why God gave us morality - to help us discern what is right and what is wrong?

So if I read in [a book] about rape victims being stoned, I question the validity of the book. Isn't that what everyone does?

I guess it's this process that leads to Christian's having lots of ways of explaining the uncomfortable bits like the slaves and stonings? It's your morality that tells you 'this bit must be taken in context' (i.e. explained in a way that makes it fit better with my own morality)

PaulSacramento wrote:

DowTingTom wrote:This is the question that caused me to leave church.

I've never understood why Jesus had to die.

I've been told it was to pay the price for our sin, but I've never understood to whom the price had to be paid.

I've been told it was because God loves us, but I don't see how killing yourself because you've decided you won't forgive people until you do shows love.

If God is God, then he could forgive without doing anything. That would fit better with the description of love in Corinthians. If love doesn't keep a record of wrongs, why are we all damned by what Adam and Eve did?

If God is God, he wouldn't need to pay a price to anyone before he could do something, so why did he decide he'd have to die?

If God died, why was there not carnage on earth as presumably the devil would take over in the absence of God?

It seems that you have issues with YOUR understanding of why Jesus had to die.
Rightly fully so because I myself have issues with YOUR view of why Jesus had to die.

Granted that the death of Jesus is NOT something easily explained nor should it be since NO death is easily explained, much less the death of the Son of God.

What does John say on the matter:
John 3:

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

You're doing well to have issues with my view on why Jesus had to die as I don't have the first clue as to why he had to die.

The passage you've quoted from John doesn't answer how Jesus dying ensured eternal life and 'saved' people. What was it about Jesus dying that made a difference? That's my question - why was killing Jesus God's chosen means when he could have used any other?

DowTingTom wrote:

B. W. wrote:

DowTingTom wrote:...I am starting from the assumption that the bible is true, and asking questions where what the bible says is at odds with my own sense of morality or what I perceive as the widely held image of God...

So are you actually claiming that your own sense of morality is superior?

Maybe that is the crux of the reason why you left Christianity???
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When you first read about rape victims being stoned in the Old Testament, what is it that made you think 'that doesn't sound right'? (if you thought that at all)?

Of course we have our own morality. God made us in his image. He has morality.


If my morality has issues with something written in [a book] I will of course question the validity of the book. I guess that's why God gave us morality - to help us discern what is right and what is wrong?

So if I read in [a book] about rape victims being stoned, I question the validity of the book. Isn't that what everyone does?

I guess it's this process that leads to Christian's having lots of ways of explaining the uncomfortable bits like the slaves and stonings? It's your morality that tells you 'this bit must be taken in context' (i.e. explained in a way that makes it fit better with my own morality)

It appears we have another Magsolo/Snowrider here, seriously what does this have to do with the topic at hand.

I would also recommend a book called "Is God a Moral Monster" by Paul Copan, your answers lie there.

Danieltwotwenty wrote: It appears we have another Magsolo/Snowrider here, seriously what does this have to do with the topic at hand.

I would also recommend a book called "Is God a Moral Monster" by Paul Copan, your answers lie there.

Hi Daniel

You seem to have posted the same thing on both the topics I've last posted on. I don't know who or what Magsolo/Snowrider is - can you explain?

In answer to your question as to what this has to do with the topic at hand, I presume you've read the thread and noted that the topic has moved, as topics do? I mean, three pages isn't much to ask seems as you are suggesting I read a whole book.

However, I concede that the contributors to this topic - including but not limited to me - have discussed ourselves away from the questions in the opening post, to which I still don't have answers. Can you help? If you can, I'd be glad to hear your input. If not, might I suggest that it's rather rude and somewhat hypocritical to post on a thread merely to say it's off topic?

DowTingTom wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote: It appears we have another Magsolo/Snowrider here, seriously what does this have to do with the topic at hand.

I would also recommend a book called "Is God a Moral Monster" by Paul Copan, your answers lie there.

Hi Daniel

You seem to have posted the same thing on both the topics I've last posted on. I don't know who or what Magsolo/Snowrider is - can you explain?

Sure, both Magsolo and Snowrider were former posters here, every topic they commented on ended up turning into the same questions being posed over and over again even after sufficient answers had been given. They had an axe to grind, they believed they understood the Bible better than anyone else and were not open to the possibility that they could be wrong.

In answer to your question as to what this has to do with the topic at hand, I presume you've read the thread and noted that the topic has moved, as topics do? I mean, three pages isn't much to ask seems as you are suggesting I read a whole book.

I have been following the topic and all the topics on this forum for a very long time, the topic has deviated slightly which I have no qualms with, what I do have a problem with is that you seem to be posing the same questions in multiple threads. If you are searching for an answer to a particular question (as you seem to be doing) start a new thread so you don't completely derail the others. Before you do start a new thread search the forums because these questions have been answered ad nauseam, but I would highly recommend reading books as they will explain in much more detail than anyone here will be able to, mainly because these people have done years of research and are more knowledgeable on the subject.

However, I concede that the contributors to this topic - including but not limited to me - have discussed ourselves away from the questions in the opening post, to which I still don't have answers. Can you help? If you can, I'd be glad to hear your input. If not, might I suggest that it's rather rude and somewhat hypocritical to post on a thread merely to say it's off topic?

I have read all the responses and have nothing to add really, the question has been answered to my satisfaction. I mean no offence by this but I think your comprehension/understanding of what they are saying is limited, this is not your fault it's just that me and others here have years of study behind us and you do not. You can't expect to understand these difficult questions in just one go, I know it took me at least three years of living as a Christian to finally understand why.

Keep asking questions but be respectful and if you are truly sincere read lots of books on the subject.

DowTingTom wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

DowTingTom wrote:This is the question that caused me to leave church.

I've never understood why Jesus had to die.

I've been told it was to pay the price for our sin, but I've never understood to whom the price had to be paid.

I've been told it was because God loves us, but I don't see how killing yourself because you've decided you won't forgive people until you do shows love.

If God is God, then he could forgive without doing anything. That would fit better with the description of love in Corinthians. If love doesn't keep a record of wrongs, why are we all damned by what Adam and Eve did?

If God is God, he wouldn't need to pay a price to anyone before he could do something, so why did he decide he'd have to die?

If God died, why was there not carnage on earth as presumably the devil would take over in the absence of God?

It seems that you have issues with YOUR understanding of why Jesus had to die.
Rightly fully so because I myself have issues with YOUR view of why Jesus had to die.

Granted that the death of Jesus is NOT something easily explained nor should it be since NO death is easily explained, much less the death of the Son of God.

What does John say on the matter:
John 3:

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

You're doing well to have issues with my view on why Jesus had to die as I don't have the first clue as to why he had to die.

The passage you've quoted from John doesn't answer how Jesus dying ensured eternal life and 'saved' people. What was it about Jesus dying that made a difference? That's my question - why was killing Jesus God's chosen means when he could have used any other?

It is NOT about His death but His Resurrection.
It was His resurrection that drew "all" to Him and reconciled Man with God though Christ.
You are focusing on His death and WHY it had to happen and the fact is that death HAD to happen for the resurrection to happen.
Christianity is not just about the death of Christ, Christianity is ALL about the resurrection of Christ.
As Paul said, If Christ was not resurrected, there is no justification or salvation.

Christ had to die so that we all may live in Him through His resurrection.

It was His resurrection that draws all and saves all those that believe.

DowTingTom, did Ross A. McGinnis uselessly die?

WASHINGTON — If there's an opportunity to escape the deadly blast of a grenade, the Army trains soldiers to take it.

When an Iraqi insurgent threw a grenade into the Humvee where Pfc. Ross A. McGinnis manned the machine gun, he had time to jump from the turret and save himself.

On Monday, during a solemn White House ceremony, President Bush presented McGinnis' parents, Tom and Romayne, with a posthumous Medal of Honor for their son, who absorbed the grenade's blast and saved the other men.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jun/03 ... /na-medal3

In that, is your answer…

For an tried and true atheist, anyone sacrificing themselves for another is a fool…
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As for the subject of rape - in your eyes only Christians are guilty and can commit rape and your morally twistedness the bible condones rape that occurred thousands of years ago in a time a culture so far removed from us that to judge it with 21'st century eyes would be to commit error. Sin is sin - read the story again and you'll see how God deals with sin - it had to be dealt a death blow by exposure first. Why, so the rapes stop, murder ends, people learn to actually become who God designed them to be, not how you D.T. TOM are now...

Jesus paid the debt to you, so you can live a new life. I am surprised with all your bible learning - you were never taught that. You may have been a victim of out of balanced SA theorem I wrote about early. To save a life is to grant a life another chance to live...

Like Ross A. McGinnis did - he gave his friends another chance to live - Jesus likewise did that for you...
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Danieltwotwenty wrote:
It appears we have another Magsolo/Snowrider here, seriously what does this have to do with the topic at hand.

I would also recommend a book called "Is God a Moral Monster" by Paul Copan, your answers lie there.

Just coming back to this after a busy few days with real life and stuff.

I'd just like to make it clear (if I haven't already) that your post is neither welcoming nor useful.

It appears to say 'Go away - we don't like people like you.'

I'm not sure that is what you intended.

PaulSacramento wrote: It is NOT about His death but His Resurrection.
It was His resurrection that drew "all" to Him and reconciled Man with God though Christ.
You are focusing on His death and WHY it had to happen and the fact is that death HAD to happen for the resurrection to happen.
Christianity is not just about the death of Christ, Christianity is ALL about the resurrection of Christ.
As Paul said, If Christ was not resurrected, there is no justification or salvation.

Christ had to die so that we all may live in Him through His resurrection.

It was His resurrection that draws all and saves all those that believe.

Now that's an interesting approach - thanks.

I wonder though what the mechanism that meant that the resurrection made 'reconciliation' between people and the God that loves them possible? It's a different angle, but the same fundamental question applies.

I mean God had brought people back from the dead before, so it can't be simply bringing back the dead that made it possible, can it?

And to be honest, the whole sacrifice to forgive thing is putting me off, not drawing me in.

B. W. wrote:DowTingTom, did Ross A. McGinnis uselessly die?

WASHINGTON — If there's an opportunity to escape the deadly blast of a grenade, the Army trains soldiers to take it.

When an Iraqi insurgent threw a grenade into the Humvee where Pfc. Ross A. McGinnis manned the machine gun, he had time to jump from the turret and save himself.

On Monday, during a solemn White House ceremony, President Bush presented McGinnis' parents, Tom and Romayne, with a posthumous Medal of Honor for their son, who absorbed the grenade's blast and saved the other men.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jun/03 ... /na-medal3

In that, is your answer…

For an tried and true atheist, anyone sacrificing themselves for another is a fool…
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How do you work that out.

If I was in a situation where I had two choices

a) Die along with four of my friends
b) Die and perhaps save the lives of some or all of my friends

I'd like to think I'd choose b - the outcome for me personally is the same either way - but that's not to dismiss the bravery of the individual written about. If you want me to fulfil your sterotype of a hard hearted atheist I could make some argument that - given that I am doomed - by acting to save my friends I am likely to ensure that at least a few of them will help 'look-out' for my children as they grow up, thereby securing the best chance I can - given the circumstances - of my own genes being passed on through having my children cared for by my partner occasionally supported by trusted friends.

You would rightly object if I suggested that in this situation a religious person might pray and therefore fail to act, or indeed that they ought to pray, or that if they'd prayed in the first place they wouldn't be in the situation.

Equally, it's not valid to make assumptions about how an atheist would act. One can make a pretty strong case that it would be in exactly the same way in the situation linked to, though.

B. W. wrote:As for the subject of rape - in your eyes only Christians are guilty and can commit rape and your morally twistedness the bible condones rape that occurred thousands of years ago in a time a culture so far removed from us that to judge it with 21'st century eyes would be to commit error.
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What?

DowTingTom wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
It appears we have another Magsolo/Snowrider here, seriously what does this have to do with the topic at hand.

I would also recommend a book called "Is God a Moral Monster" by Paul Copan, your answers lie there.

Just coming back to this after a busy few days with real life and stuff.

I'd just like to make it clear (if I haven't already) that your post is neither welcoming nor useful.

It appears to say 'Go away - we don't like people like you.'

I'm not sure that is what you intended.

That was not my intention to be dismissive, but instead to draw attention to the way in which your posting. You seem to have the same attacking style of posting as previous posters and seem to not really think deeply or even try to understand the person replying to you. All you seem to be interested in is formulating the next argument.

This is not a slight on yourself or your character, but I would suggest thinking about the the style in which you post.

When you think you have won an argument you actually just lost, because an argument is not about winning or losing, it is about the truth and understanding, not necessarily what you hold to be true but understanding what the other person holds to be true. Once you understand this and can keep your emotions in check and engage intellectually with the other party, things will go more smoothly.

Listening is the first step to understanding and we have had people posing these same questions again and again but they never listened, it's not like we have never posed these questions ourselves or never heard them posed to us. Philosophers and theologians have been answering these same questions for hundreds of years, the first thing you should recognise is that there are logical answers to these questions, whether you accept them as true or not is your choice, but we obviously do and after years of contemplation we are quite comfortable with the God of the Bible.

I highly recommend reading Is God a MoralMmonster by Paul Copan, if you really want to understand the seemingly immoral laws and events in the OT.
If you are really sincere about learning and understanding you will find the answers to many of your questions just by reading books on the subject.

The rape law is not as it seems, I don't have my copy at the moment but I will try to get it back ASAP, but it would be much easier if you got a copy and read it. You learn so much more when you do the study yourself than have someone paraphrase it for you.

Dan