Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote:And let's not avoid the question - IF Jesus said what Scripture records about Old Testament ("The Law and the Prophets") being God's word, how can ANY of it NOT be?

Here, Jesus refers to The Law and The Prophets (the rest of the OT besides The Law - the first five books) an unbreakable whole unit, of which, of course, Genesis is a part:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Jesus' Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man:
"But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’"

"‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

"Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

"Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah ..."

If you deny the OT is Scriptural truth, then you have to deny what Jesus said in the New Testament.

And so, how do you do THAT?

Exactly Philip. Jesus NEVER intended to end G-d's commandments... Never. He always taught people to obey G-d's commandments which are actually Christ's commandments.

Matthew 19:16-17, “Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? So He said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Matthew 23:1-3 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commands;

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me, and the one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”

Philip wrote:And let's not avoid the question - IF Jesus said what Scripture records about Old Testament ("The Law and the Prophets") being God's word, how can ANY of it NOT be?

Here, Jesus refers to The Law and The Prophets (the rest of the OT besides The Law - the first five books) an unbreakable whole unit, of which, of course, Genesis is a part:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Jesus' Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man:
"But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’"

"‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

"Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

"Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah ..."

If you deny the OT is Scriptural truth, then you have to deny what Jesus said in the New Testament.

And so, how do you do THAT?

I am really not obligated to answer your accusations, Philip, I am not. and I am getting quite wary of having to "prove" my faith to you guys constantly questioning me. Mere curiosity is one thing and had it been just that I would have had no objections to answer even in details; but you are painting me with things I don't hold to and you are doing it quite consistently. I hope I am wrong but this combative attitude of accusations is not helping and you need to realize that.

neo-x wrote: Because every human has the capacity to do evil. It is an inherent potential and that makes us imperfect to begin with. A perfect being cannot do evil, such as God. I would ask you how was sin born or came into existence, sin existed before humans existed, did it not? Sin is an abnormality in God's intended purpose/design. Whatever is not perfect, is by virtue an abnormality.

You supply the premise that this concept of 'evil' is imperfect, what if it is just a brilliant catalyst designed to show us where we are failing within the collective expression of humanity?

The entire concept of sin is developed around choice/free will, yet logic contradicts such a premise.

Do you desire to molest children and simply choose not to?
Do you desire to murder another life and simply choose not to?
Rape?
Abuse?
Insert anything you could give the title evil into this scenario.

Now flip it....
Do you lack the desire to molest, murder, rape or abuse and simply choose to?

I'm assuming like myself, molestation, murder, rape and abuse is not a choice but without question an impossibility. So how do we begin to condemn a life that actually does have these desires to a concept that it is something they have chosen? Do we throw our hands in the air and say, "well, they're just evil is all".

Now, since we've established how utterly absurd it is that an individual chose these desires for themselves, place yourself within that reality. Society tells you that all of these acts are evil and wrong, they're foul and disgusting in fact... Worthy of hell... Yet, it doesn't change the fact that these desires exist within you, kind of messes with the noodle and twists it all up further.
What we fail to acknowledge is that a beautiful and brilliant mind exists underneath it all, it didn't choose this state... Society as an expression failed it and continues to fail it.... Look how this concept of righteousness has our egos so puffed that it focuses upon branding this life rather than identifying that it should have NEVER become such a deviance.
Every life and every mind should be a celebration of it's potential, set free... unhindered in it's exploration of it's brilliance and beauty.... We should become a student to every mind, to learn what it has to offer and nurture it along that individual path.... Spare no expense, with the knowledge that it will show us a brilliance based on the inspiration it received that we couldn't even begin to fathom.
Every deviant behavior is a result and response of how unfulfilled we are as an expression, that is how our minds should have been nurtured as well.... Instead we wield our own assessments of worth as a weapon called evil, knocking whoever gets in it's path upside the head.
We adhere to a belief that doesn't tell us how beautiful we are and of the magnificent potential we contain; but it tells us we are nothing without a savior, likening us to filthy rags.... It sounds more like an abusive husband telling his wife that she nothing without his love.... It's frightening!
It's a self fulfilling prophecy that then says "See, look at all the evil in the world.... We need our savior to come wipe it from the earth and redeem us, the worthy"

Or we could open our hearts and listen to all the static and pain that surrounds us, and understand that it is all needless.... There is a solution to it all, it includes every life leaving not one behind, because it sees the perfection and beauty that exists within every life and it won't stand for a single expression that denies it.

Look at us, chasing our own tail round and round for ridiculous tokens of worth.... Raping the earth of it's resources and leaving a wake of garbage behind.... Discarding minds into billion dollar institutions who can't jump through these ridiculously stifling hoops.... But we're the sane ones!

And we think that we are happy and fulfilled as an expression?

We can't understand why minds are lashing out against their own? No really, they're just evil!

We're so much more intelligent than this!

How much more do beautiful minds who's potential has been wasted, need to lash out before we wake up?

neo-x wrote:

Byblos wrote:Fair enough. In view of that, how would you interpret <a href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Romans%205.12" class="lbsBibleRef" data-reference="Romans 5.12" data-version="nasb95" target="_blank">Romans 5:12</a> then? Who is this 'one man' through whom death has entered the world?

Ofcourse the story of Adam is being referenced. To make a point. Albeit I would readily concede that the author clearly considers adam to be factual and may i also add, believes in yec too.

Aside from the point being made, the verse indicates that the author believed Adam to be a real person through whom sin (physical or spiritual being besides the point) has entered the world. The allegorization of A&E makes this comparison unintelligible and effectively introduces a contradiction. Once you go down this path you put the entire bible in question as to its reliability, neo. Maybe the passion, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus was just an allegory too, a well-intentioned myth that certainly teaches universal truths but has no basis in reality than a mythical Adam or Eve or Zeus or Atlas, or whatever.

neo-x wrote:As to the question of death, well Death was always there, imagine a planet with all living things on it reproducing and no one dying, it would be a disaster very soon. That is problematic on many fronts.

I happen to agree with you on the subject of physical death. I would even venture to say most OECs will also agree with you as well so that's a moot point.

neo-x wrote:And as far as spiritual Death is concerned all men are born 'not perfect' therefore all need saving.

But what made us spiritually imperfect neo? And remember we were made in God's image. This image cannot be a physical one since God is immaterial. I know you don't believe this but the implication of your position is that God is also imperfect. Otherwise this imperfection cannot be because we simply were born this way (lol I'm hearing Lady Gaga in the background, sorry). So what it is then? The way I see it there are only 2 choices, either Adam (and we by spiritual inheritance) caused sin through an act of the will or God is the author of it. Do you see a 3rd that I don't?

Everybody has free will so everybody sins. We may be made in the image of god but then i don't know what do you mean by that.

Again Byblos, we're on the same page here. I'm seeing the exact same thing from Neo's posts.

Neo, this becomes a problem when you witness to unbelievers, I you had this same discussion with them. They would ask why they should believe anything about Christ from scripture, if you are essentially saying scripture contradicts itself. This is what I'm saying when I say you are walking down a dangerous road with this belief.

Byblos, if I remember correctly, you said you lean towards TE right? Yet you're seeing the same thing in Neo's posts that Philip and I are seeing. Since you hold to TE, and Philip and I don't, maybe you could explain the Adam/Christ comparison from your pov. It might make more sense to Neo coming from you.

RickD wrote:Byblos, if I remember correctly, you said you lean towards TE right? Yet you're seeing the same thing in Neo's posts that Philip and I are seeing. Since you hold to TE, and Philip and I don't, maybe you could explain the Adam/Christ comparison from your pov. It might make more sense to Neo coming from you.

I'm on the fence with TE but I don't reject it either. What I categorically reject is the allegorization of Adam and Eve precisely for the reasons you've stated above. It makes scripture contradictory and, therefore, unreliable. I believe in a literal Adam and Eve who brought sin and, consequently, death into the world. Whether A&E were created or evolved is totally besides the point. Obviously I also reject (for the most part) Neo's interpretation of Genesis being 24 literal days and YEC as many here do. I see no contradiction whatsoever between a literal Genesis from an old earth perspective, a literal A&E, and what science has revealed so far. On the contrary, I see great harmony and comfort in the inerrancy of scripture and science.

neo-x wrote:Everybody has free will so everybody sins. We may be made in the image of god but then i don't know what do you mean by that.

I don't know you tell me Neo. On the one hand you say scripture speaks of spiritual, not physical death, that physical death predated the fall and spiritual death postdated the fall (which I agree with). But this also implies that physical death has no association with our imperfection to commit sin. But if our physical side is disconnected from our ability to sin, then it must be our spiritual side that's culpable, correct? But if that's the case and we are spiritually made in God's image, then either we are imperfect because God is imperfect (and we were born this way) or we are imperfect through an act of the will. Scripture clearly states that it's the latter and the means by which this came about is through one man, Adam. But you say Adam is not real, do you see where the problem is? What I'm saying to you is that scripture disagrees with you.

I see that Byblos but I have no way to reconcile this. I actually have no problem saying that a man called adam may have existed but my problem is he can't be the first human as the scriptures say. The two are connected. He is the first human and he is also made in God's image. I can't say he is real guy and not the first human that would be picking and choosing.

What I know is that to explain the genetic diversity in humans you need a population of at least 10000 individuals, a single couple can't do that. That much is true by science.

The Genesis account is very vague in that respect as i don't know what exactly the words mean, image of god, its not physical i know but we are not perfect either which only tella me that this is a metaphorical phrase not meant to mean anything but the creative or dominant personality of human beings that they share with the divine.

When I reject this, i am saying that humans rose through evolutionary stages. And at some point god introduced himself to us in some way but the discrepancies in Genesis 1 leads me to believe that its not that story for sure.

Scripture may say that one man brought physical death but i know that is wrong by logic and evidence and if i say its spiritual death then i think all humans are born that way, we may resemble the creator but we are never born perfect. Thus the image of god to me is not that humans were created exact replica of God because if you claim that tjen you tell me what it means. Sin is not something which is in genetics. If you say one man brought death you have to tell me how does his imperfect spirit gave birth to his child's imperfect spirit. Reproduction is of the body not ofbthe spirit. Infact in this way i can actually ask you that if god created our spirits then he must create them perfect or else he falls in the same problem you are asking me to clarify.

I reject the fall, and Genesis story precisely because it doesn't fit anymore. That is why i say that adam and eve are not even allegory, because the writers obviously thought they were real. And that makes them wrong.

neo-x wrote:Everybody has free will so everybody sins. We may be made in the image of god but then i don't know what do you mean by that.

Just because you state a premise, it doesn't make it so........

Lets use a child molester as an example and investigate....

If you were born with an identical genetic makeup, with identical influences and met with the identical circumstances as this child molester.... Would you have chosen differently?
You have stated that we all have free will, so that must exist regardless of circumstance, therefore you must logically adhere that you would have made the obvious (eh hem) choice and chosen differently.... The answer being yes.

This is basic contemplative reasoning..... There are two possibilities in this scenario.
#1
Your physical form is identical. Your mind is identical; hence, your thought process is identical. We can only conclude that your choice would also be identical.... The answer would therefore be NO!
#2
Each of us is given a soul that is not identical which would be the only possible scenario to counteract the choice of a physically and mentally identical form as it responds to an identical set of circumstance, one soul would have the innate quality to differentiate within said choice, while another one would not.
Since scenario #2 is the only viable option to support your answer, then let us examine further.
Who provided us with this soul? And what is the motive?
There are two more scenarios.
#1
God provided us all with a very unique soul. If God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent; God would also know the outcome of placing this specific soul within it's specific genetic makeup, influence and circumstance. God would also have a motive in matching this soul with it's influence, knowing whether or not it will be able to differentiate a choice within said circumstance.
If God is truly omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent; what is the motive?
#2
God is not omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent... Being the creator of all things, God has created a law that governs even himself. God has created chaos, and it now rules everything.
God provides every individual with a very unique soul and only has knowledge that it might succeed or that it might fail.
The aspect that becomes completely senseless is that God provides reward or punishment to something even he has no choice in.
Even though the argument is unravelling, there is no possible way you can say that you would have made the choice within such a flawed arena, not to become the same child molester or perhaps even worse.
Regardless.....
Seeing as option #2 is completely senseless and absurd.... Option #1 is the only sensible scenario.... Now let us examine this further!

God has provided us all with a very unique soul with full knowledge of whether it will succeed or fail in it's choice, given it's influence and circumstance of physical embodiment. In result, there must be a motive in pairing the soul with it's embodiment, having one succeed and another fail, with full knowledge in doing so.

We can actually find the answer to this in the Bible, it relates perfectly to everything I have pointing out. Let's examine that answer!
*************
Romans 9:14-33
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
*********************
The answer is that it is not of the individual will, but the mercy of God.
When asked, who then has resisted God's will (if our life is merely the result of his demonstration of power in showing compassion for one soul and hardening another). The answer to this question is simply... Who are you to question God's motive for doing so? Does not the potter have power over the clay?

The Bible itself contradicts that we have free will, which actually lines up perfectly when we investigate it through basic logic......

It's a bit sadistic if you ask me....

But if there's a solution towards achieving actual embodiment, where the aspect of choice falls away to a simple realization of fulfillment for every life and mind.... THAT would be a brilliant expression of the mind that takes responsibility for every act within humanity!

That kind of seems like the obvious CHOICE if that's the way we are WILLING to see.....

OR-
At least be realistic with yourself in conforming to your belief.... You have been created a vessel of God's mercy that he afore prepared unto glory, in motive, to make the riches of his glory known. God could not provide such knowledge without also creating a vessel fitted to destruction.
It is not about a choice, but of God's will.
Do not question why God has chosen to favor you, but only that you might edify that glory.

I am regrettably one of those vessels fitted to destruction, God never wanted me to be a part of his glory.... In an infinite number of lives, I cannot accept a God that would simply create a soul in order to destroy it, as it is a demonstration of gross inequality.
It is not a choice that I have, this is the way I was created; it is impossible to deviate from it.

Neo wrote:
I reject the fall, and Genesis story precisely because it doesn't fit anymore. That is why i say that adam and eve are not even allegory, because the writers obviously thought they were real. And that makes them wrong.

And you honestly don't have a problem with saying this, as a believer?

RickD wrote:

Neo wrote:
I reject the fall, and Genesis story precisely because it doesn't fit anymore. That is why i say that adam and eve are not even allegory, because the writers obviously thought they were real. And that makes them wrong.

And you honestly don't have a problem with saying this, as a believer?

No rick, why should I? What does it change in my love for god or Christ or God's love for me? Please tell me.