Evidence for God from Science

So creation of life is subject to those laws?
So evolution doesn't work?

Still confused.

My point is that your suggestion would involve God breaking His own laws.

The suggestion that God initiated evolution?
That wasn't my suggestion, I was arguing against it, or trying to.

the suggestion that God popped animals out of nothing. Evolution would not be breaking any laws if God is in control.

I'm so confused. Who suggested popping animals out of nothing. I don't remember this...maybe I missed it?

My point was that evolution defies the Second Law and therefore is not a viable theory. (Also see my other points on why evolution doesn't work) If God doesn't break His own laws then He wouldn't break the Second Law so evolution continues not to work.

Again, there is no point to creating a world that has to evolve. Why would God do this?

And again also: We are entirely off the topic. Can we Please go back?

hermitville101 wrote:I'm so confused. Who suggested popping animals out of nothing. I don't remember this...maybe I missed it?

My point was that evolution defies the Second Law and therefore is not a viable theory. (Also see my other points on why evolution doesn't work) If God doesn't break His own laws then He wouldn't break the Second Law so evolution continues not to work.

Again, there is no point to creating a world that has to evolve. Why would God do this?

And again also: We are entirely off the topic. Can we Please go back?

You suggested it. Unless you have a third alternative as to what process God used to create animals? Our mere existance, according to you, breaks the Second Law so I fail to see why evolution couldn't work.

August wrote:My opinion, flame away....

God created us to glorify Him. Since He is the highest power, He can't glorify Himself, He needs some 'subjects' to glorify Him, and serve in His kingdom. Praise and honor we bestow on Him can only be regarded as sincere when we do it out of our own free will, if He made us without sin it would mean that we had no choice but to glorify Him, and that would really artificial. He wants us to choose to do this. This is where evil enters, some of these subjects are rebellious and refuse to worship Him, and would rather serve darkness. It makes Him sad, but He did understand it would be that way, and says as much.

Our sole purpose for having been created is to glorify God in everything we do, and to try and get others to do it too.

Sorry I missed this.
God being God can't possibly need anything. He can however want things. He could have made us because He wanted glory, but not b/c He needed it.
Also I don't think God wants us to sit there and worship Him when we get to heaven. I mean if you were a glorious being wouldn't you get bored if all anyone ever did was sit there and tell you how great you are, even if you deserved it? While I do agree that we are made to glorify God, is that our sole purpose? Adam and Eve walked with God. It doesn't say worshipped. While they weren't with God they were taking care of the garden and all that good stuff or w/e. They did things apart from God. It doesn't sound like they were worshipping God 24/7. Though that could depend on how you define worship. Most of the Bible tends to put worship with that fall on the ground/bowing/prostrate stuff.

I rather relieved to have found your post. Such an argument was what I expected and have already reasoned through. It is what I used to think, but it just seems that its not in itself enough.

I think what I'm beginning to see here is that there several good points and reasons for God to create us, but in themselves don't seem enough. Which brings me to wonder if perhaps that all of them together make a homogeneous reasoning for God creating us.

Mastermind wrote:You suggested it. Unless you have a third alternative as to what process God used to create animals? Our mere existance, according to you, breaks the Second Law so I fail to see why evolution couldn't work.

I begin to understand now.
OK, I'm going to try to put my thoughts into words. <grimaces>

First I did not bind myself to thinking that God works within His laws. I thought that was someone else's idea. That whole changing water to wine thing seems to violate a bit of chemistry. I was pondering if perhaps God did stay within His laws but that seems quite out of the question now.

So I will go back to one of my other points. Why? Why would God create something that needed to be fixed, updated, helped along for billions of years? Why would He go to the trouble of doing what He could do so much more easily? Then, why would he tell us that He created it all in 6 days? (Do I really have to drag out a quote?) There is no logic in God creating the world through evolution.

I would like to point out that one does not have to just blindly refuse scientific evidence to believe 6 day creation. I have yet to see any hard evidence of evolution. Every argument I've heard has a counter-argument; in most cases a good one.

I would also like to point out that it doesn't really matter too much. We're here now and God is responsible for that. The rest are details. So again I ask that we please get back on topic as it seems that that topic has more relevance to everyday life. I enjoy a good evolution/creation debate, but it is rather secondary to other things in my opinion.

God never said it was 6 24 hour periods of creation though. And if God doesn't obey the laws of His universe, why did He take six days? Why not a split second?

No, He didn't but I believe it likely. The theory is that he set and example of a week for us. Apparently the brilliant French decided once back in the day to try and go to a 10 day week. Sounds like a good idea. I like the number 10. But apparently it didn't work; the human body was just made for a 7 day week. I should caution that I haven't researched this story yet, but the point has more to do with God setting and example (which includes rest yay!) for us. Since God doesn't need to rest and all that kinda explains both of those.

Also time existed before God even went about creating the world so the period of a day did exist even with out that whole sun thing. The mention of evening and morning also adds to the idea of a day.

All that aside, however, I have one more point. The Bible does specifically say, "Gen 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good." Same goes for the plants too... God made everything specifically. He didn't say "sat there and babysat a bunch of bacteria until it formed into better bacteria etc."

In conclusion, hopefully, sure it's possible that God worked that way, I just don't think He did. It doesn't make sense to me. It just isn't logical and fitting with how I see God. I don't see what so difficult about a literal interpretation. Why do we have to make things so complicated. KISS man. Anyway, that's my view, and you have yours. That's fine. If we could agree to disagree on a minor detail and get back to the subject topic!

hermitville101 wrote:My apologies, I should have clarified a bit. I was intending God's purpose for creating us. I mean I don't think it would be some random "I think I'll have fun today" kind of thing considering that we're talking about billions of souls going to Hell, not to mention that He had to send His son to die etc. So it seems to me that there must be a really good reason for creating all of us...

I don't think that there is a "necessary" purpose to God's creating. For example, not all artists create paintings (or wherever their artistic talent may lie) for purposeful reasons. Sure, some artistic expressions may carry hints of the artists life experiences and/or emotions, but this doesn't necessarily mean there is a "purpose" to the artist's work. The artist may simply derive pleasure from their creation. Similarly, I don't see God as any different, only with God's creation of us, He created something that can understand, can make their own decisions, can love or to hate, and accept or reject.

So if God derived pleasure in creating beings that can freely choose to love or reject Him, then the question becomes why would God get pleasure from it? Someone might ask what is the purpose of a person getting a pet? While some people may want a pet as a companion, protection or something else, others may not want one for any other reason than to love and care for it. They derive pleasure from this.

I see no problems in seeing God as creating beings such as us in order that he might be able to express His love so much more than if we weren't created. If humans can desire a pet to care for and love, then I see it as reasonable to assume that God from eternity desired free beings to express his own love to, and not only this, but He also desired their free response to love Him back.

Kurieuo.

hermit,

since our answers are so simple and emotion based, what's your answer to all this? it must be good!

again, it makes perfect sense that he created us to express his love and have fellowship. in order to get genuine love and fellowship from us he had to grant us free will. in granting us free will, he will not intercede in our choices to draw away from him. it is when we make these choices to draw away from him that evil is created. simple and sensical.

if we want to get really complicated, what is the purpose of the angels or satan? the angels have free will too. if God knew that satan would turn away from him, did he purposely create him to bring evil into the equation, creating an environment for free will?

another question, why does he love us more than the angels?

I would agree except: It cost God His son. That certainly wasn't pleasurable. If it was just for pleasure then why not create a world in which He need not send His son? I mean the angels could serve the same purpose and they don't need saving.

If you could have the perfect pet (whatever you think that is) or you could have that pet and spend an arm and a leg for it, which would you choose?
I hate poor analogies, but that's the best that comes to mind at the moment.

colors wrote:hermit,

since our answers are so simple and emotion based, what's your answer to all this? it must be good!

I don't have one yet, that's why I asked the question. I have pondered most of these answers in the past and rejected them as being the primary reason. However, I am beginning to think that it is something of a composite of reasons.

colors wrote:
again, it makes perfect sense that he created us to express his love and have fellowship. in order to get genuine love and fellowship from us he had to grant us free will. in granting us free will, he will not intercede in our choices to draw away from him. it is when we make these choices to draw away from him that evil is created. simple and sensical.

Right. But I think I'm trying to say that I think there is more than just His love and fellowship. It still seems a bit empty and emotion based. And I still don't think that the love and fellowship is worth His son.

colors wrote:
if we want to get really complicated, what is the purpose of the angels or satan? the angels have free will too. if God knew that satan would turn away from him, did he purposely create him to bring evil into the equation, creating an environment for free will?

I was hoping to answer this question first. I have pondered those questions also and believe that answering this one will lead to easy logical answers for those. I am particularly interested in Satan's purpose as it will make fighting him a bit easier, but I was saving that.

colors wrote:
another question, why does he love us more than the angels?

Does He? I haven't seen anything to indicate that but then I haven't seen everything. (stupid time/space thing)

"So I will go back to one of my other points. Why? Why would God create something that needed to be fixed, updated, helped along for billions of years? Why would He go to the trouble of doing what He could do so much more easily? Then, why would he tell us that He created it all in 6 days? (Do I really have to drag out a quote?) There is no logic in God creating the world through evolution."

Hi Hermitville, I don't understand why you say that it had to be fixed, updated and helped along. I believe the Creator started life. And then pretty much took a hands off approach. Life is evolving over billions of years. And it is part of the Creator. It is changing into something new all the time. I must admit I am no scientist and cannot scientifically argue for or against evolution. But I have read some things. And I have a good mind and a seeking heart. I believed the Adam and Eve story literally for most of my life. Now ... I love the bible, but I don't believe it literally. None of it. The bible is stories ... from men, trying to figure out what their purpose is. Hoping that there is a God who will be on their side, because the world is a scary place. Men, discovering truths about themselves. My trust in the bible's accuracy is nil. There are too many discrepancies. But I trust in some of the concepts and ideas that are written there by seeking people. The things that touch my heart and ring true for all people.

You ask God's purpose. God is the Creator of purpose. I feel I am finding it a little more every day, through my daily life experiences. The bible says "be still and know." Be still inside for awhile. And maybe when you find out YOUR purpose, you will start to find out His.