Evidence for God from Science

Byblos wrote:Why is no one addressing the 800 pound elephant in the room? Something needs to be done with Gman's tone and attitude. I suspect it could have been addressed internally between mods but from experience I rather doubt it.

Sorry G, you know I love you like a brother but for quite some time you've been not only unfair and partial as a moderator, but you down right come across as a bully. Don't misunderstand, although I may disagree with it I am not attacking your position, only that you are very dismissive of others' positions and you do it from the pulpit.

I thought this should be aired out.

I was waiting for B. W. to get back. He'll handle it.

as byblos wondered: let's have mod debate

Agreed.

Hmmm, I just returned from the Northern Tribal areas of Standing Rock and Cheyenne River Reservations where I am in the process of planning a big project. Drove through parts of South Dakota recently hit with a bad storm which dropped cattle dead in droves, snapped trees and telephone poles like match wood, people without power for 9 plus days, then past that areas devastation, to the areas east of Faith SD not hit. Saw the poverty on the Reservations, family infighting, revenge seeking govt policy at work, and a host of other ills (abuse, neglect, alcoholism, drug addiction, etc and etc) and all the hopelessness and broken hearts...

Come here and see this post. What can I say here?

Probably not much, I haven't read all the post that led to this event to actually comment.

All I can say to all is watch your words, if someone offends you, go in privet and attempt to resolve it before doing openly on the forum. This is a debate Forum. Show respect and if someone, with honest intentions sets up a thread to solely post info regarding a Guideline approved topic structure, respect it, and if someone disagrees , then set up an opposing thread to debate it there.

As for Evolution - after what I saw recently in the Dakotas, demonstrates that human beings certainly can behave like primordial soup to each other, yet, through the light of Christ at work in them arise out of that soupy mire emerging as a reflection of true Christlikeness.

May we all do so, here, today, too.

Blessings
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B. W. Wrote:
All I can say to all is watch your words, if someone offends you, go in privet and attempt to resolve it before doing openly on the forum. This is a debate Forum. Show respect and if someone, with honest intentions sets up a thread to solely post info regarding a Guideline approved topic structure, respect it, and if someone disagrees , then set up an opposing thread to debate it there.

It wasn't that the topic was against guidelines. I think Byblos was the only one who seemed to understand my point. I'll explain more in my response to Neo later.

RickD wrote:

B. W. Wrote:
All I can say to all is watch your words, if someone offends you, go in privet and attempt to resolve it before doing openly on the forum. This is a debate Forum. Show respect and if someone, with honest intentions sets up a thread to solely post info regarding a Guideline approved topic structure, respect it, and if someone disagrees , then set up an opposing thread to debate it there.

It wasn't that the topic was against guidelines. I think Byblos was the only one who seemed to understand my point. I'll explain more in my response to Neo later.

O kee doe key...
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Neo, as always, I'm only speaking for myself here.

Neo wrote:
I left because I felt that you are not comfortable in me having my view. It is one thing to disagree with what I say, it’s one thing to say evolution is not a fact, but it’s an entirely different thing to say that "Neo, we don't accept evolution as fact and now you have to do the same or else..."

I never meant that you can't hold to evolution as a fact. I know you believe evolution is a fact. The problem, as I explained before, was that you came across as if those who don't see the 'fact' of evolution as you see it, are ignorant, and don't really look at the evidence. As far as this board is concerned, Theistic Evolution is one creation stance. It is not "the only valid" creation stance. This board is open to have all opinions and beliefs regarding creation stances, discussed. As long as we all understand that people have different creation stance beliefs, and there's no place for dogmatism on this forum regarding creation.

I didn't left because of differing views on creation. I left because I am not even entitled to my own opinion now. This is not about evolution or creation.

I don't respect a lot of beliefs, but I absolutely respect a person's right to hold them. I can disagree, debate or discuss but I won't force that person to agree with my conclusion because I happen to differ.

I wasn't forcing you to deny your belief of evolution. I wasn't saying you can't discuss your beliefs. Byblos understood my point when he said:

Neo, I have no agenda against TE and I agree with most of the conclusions drawn from most of the articles you posted ( I admit, I didn't read all of them but I did read a representative sample and have no problem with any of them so I have no reason to want to continue reading). But since science, in and of itself, does not attempt to prove or disprove anything, should we perpetuate the myth that it does anyway and proclaim evidences (albeit very solid ones) as fact? I understand your passion but honestly I don'y understand your hard-line stance with respect to calling TE a 'fact'. It is a very, very well corroborated theory that best fits our observations, granted. It is the only theory that fits the fossil record, absolutely. It is the only prevailing scientific theory that no other theory can touch, without a doubt. But to call it a 'fact' goes contrary to everything science stands for whether that's coming from you or Francis Collins or Miller or me or whoever.

And that should apply to any another 'theory', including PC, YEC, whatever. I don't believe TE is being singled out.

Neo wrote:
Rick, if you hold PC as the most convincing thing to your heart, would you like being forced to say that YEC is true and evolution is true as well, even when you don't agree with it? But you can disagree; respecting does not mean you have to agree with me. I find PC, YEC, false, should I then respect them by agreeing with them? But I should respect you brother. And if you find it true and convincing then we can discuss, debate and leave it where it is. I have absolutely no right to stop you to not express what you think is true or say something which must be in line with what I believe.

Nobody was forcing you to accept YEC or PC. My point was that if you came across as just stating evolution as your belief, INSTEAD of dogmatically declaring it as a fact, and insulting those who disagree, then there would have been no issue with me.

Neo wrote:
Second, when a mod does something which is wrong, who is to stop him? It is one thing to ask for proof; it is an entirely different thing to say "Your time is running out." these are Gman's words to me. And for the life of me I do not know what they mean...do any of you know? But I am not daft and I can see that the whole thing has taken as a personal battle form. Should a mod not be questioned for engaging in bully behavior? Am I a troll? If not then why am I being treated like one?

To top that, Gman, put the evolution thread into philosophy. I sincerely ask why? Is it not bias now working here? Who on earth puts evolution thread into philosophy? Unless he has a personal bias against the topic and even if he does what right does he have to move my thread when there is no reason to do it? Gman's reason is plain wrong, if there was a post by me on philosophy, he could have easily split the topic, but he didn't. And what really saddened me and actually worried me was that NO ONE STOPPED HIM. I am not passing blame on all mods, I can understand some might have been busy and some may have not checked but that’s my point a mod does not need to be monitored in the first place. And if there is something wrong going on than others should step in.

Gman calls evolution, a lie, a weak belief, but no one can see that his moving the thread is actually favoring his bias? He calls it philosophy so I should too now? And if I don't it really doesn't matter because it’s pushed under philosophy anyway and I can't do something about it. It’s such a low and trivial thing to do that I saw it pointless to continue. But it tells me that yes a mod can have his way around without consequences, so the only thing I could do was what I did, I decided to leave. Really there was no point in staying when this kind of behavior is going around.

I'll let Gman speak for himself if he wants to.

Rick, Gman, any other person, if you started a thread on creation links or ID, and requested me to post only relevant links or don't post, I would absolutely honor you and your request. This has nothing to do with rules. It is simple common ethics and courtesy. We should not be fighting over things like these, and when we do, it means we do not love each other the same way we love ourselves. I was never reluctant to debate or discuss the topic of evolution; I never said I won’t give proof, I never asked anyone to accept evolution because I say so. But you made a point that whether I accept your posts against my request in that thread or not - you really don't care and you will post whether I like it or not. And it wasn't such a hard thing, a lot of people absolutely respected the purpose of the thread, they saw nothing wrong even if they disagreed.

I never said you weren't giving proof of evolution. You mixed your threads that were supposed to be resource threads about evolution, with threads that have a blog thats sole purpose is to insult God, and discredit Creationism.

Rick, I apologized to you earlier, and I do so again now, it was a very bad choice of words and my mistake when I talked about you taking science lessons from pastors, I am sorry I said that. I was wrong in your case, but a lot of people actually do that exactly and I have seen it plenty. I was under the wrong impression in your case and I hope you can see I didn't use those words again once I found that it wasn't so with you.

I understand, and I accept your apology. But what you said, added fuel to the fire. And it came across as arrogant and dogmatic.

Third, it is very easy on this forum to be labeled anti-Semite. Really, anything against Israel is feared as anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism is when someone goes against Israel just because they are Jewish; it’s a form of racism. But apart from that Israel is not washed in milk and there are plenty of things they can do wrong.

I think this one is for Gman too.

FL's recent comments about me baffled me because I don't think I fit the description of an anti-Semite or that I am a fellow who “bad-mouths” Israel and Jews just for the sake of it. I was actually asked to provide an explanation. Now I don't mind that and I did give my reasons to post that video but a video showing rabbi's sucking penises in circumcision is at worst a shot against the practice but not because they are Jews. Heck, I understand why it’s vulgar but I don't understand how it’s anti-Semitism? They are engaged in a questionable act, Jews or not. I would have had equal objection if it was Christians or Muslims or Sikhs. What does that tell me? It means mods also have soft areas and they don't like it being questioned, the same way we do and I respect that, I totally do…but we should not be unfair, no matter how much we love a thing. There is a fine line between respecting something and sugar coating faults to the point where truth becomes hard to accept.

After FL and i discussed this, and he realized the stuff you posted really happens, he was as shocked as you and I were. I explained this to you before, here:

RickD wrote:
To be fair, FL posted that on mini chat before he was aware that the video Neo posted was actually true.
At first glance by watching the video and seeing all the comments underneath, it just seemed like an anti Semitic, anti God video.
FL was as shocked as I was, to find out the practice is real.

So, FL's comments to me on mini chat happened because he thought Neo was just posting an anti Semitic video. And Neo wasn't.
And frankly, I thought it may be an anti Semitic video too, until I looked into it. The practice is performed within Judaism. But from what I've seen, there are rabbis speaking out against it.

So that issue should have been dropped.

There is no board purpose which demands that evolution must be called a belief or a Christian like me who does not hold Adam and eve factual, is going against board rules and purposes. So on what grounds was I asked to back down or for having an agenda?

Again, only speaking for myself, it wasn't your belief that was my issue. It was the way you presented it as "fact", and insulting others that didn't believe as you do.

I asked him for an explanation then and I would like an explanation now but Rick, you were there, you read it, why didn't you question it or stopped it? Does it not sound like an insult, an ultimatum to you? It sure sounded to me. It was like he was addressing a troll who just dropped out and was about to be kicked.

I tried to address this in the Moderator forum. While I won't go into details, I told Gman that I thought he was going about this the wrong way. So, while you didn't see it, it wasn't ignored by me.

This issue is deeper than evolution vs. creation guys. In the past we lost members because some were Calvinists or Yec’s because of same attitudes. Now that I have stepped in those shoes, I can understand how they must have felt when we did not gave them the same grace we afford and now I have also reaped what I sowed in the past. We all have been guilty but I don't want this to happen again to any of us just because we differ on doctrines and ideas.

I was guilty in that whole Calvinism issue too. So, I don't want to see it happen again because of differing beliefs.

I would not want anyone to go unless its their choice. I don't want Jac and Jilay to go because they are YEC; or Hana to go because she leans towards Calvinism; or should this board ever turn YEC then Rick to go; or Gman to leave because he can't post his love for Israel. And I don't want Christians like me, or hughfray to leave this board because evolution as his point of view is a dangerous topic to favor on this board. I don't want an atheist or agnostic to leave this board when he sees us fighting like 6 year olds having no courtesy.

I personally never wanted you to go. As I've said before, you are a very important part of this forum.

Debate and disagree is one thing, forcing people to bend in line is another.

I wasn't forcing you to believe something you don't want to believe. I was just trying to get you to see that calling your belief a fact, is the wrong way to go about it. For example: If a respected board member posted a resource thread about YEC, and stated YEC as a fact, and those who disagree with him get their theology from their favorite scientists, not from scripture, you can bet your booty that I would have an issue with it.

I know a member on this forum, who I won't name but who cannot post here properly on a subject because a certain mod will take dislike and might boot him in his prejudice. This is troubling. I respect that poster and I cringe that this is what it has come to. This is unfair guys, this is against this board’s spirit and it’s against Christian spirit in which we claim to use this board. You may say I am stretching it but no, I think there is a real problem, deep down and we need to root it out before we lose more good people.

If you want to pm me this info, maybe I can help. Keep in mind, if this member is not a believer, he will be given much less leeway. And there could also be extenuating circumstances, depending on who the member in question is.

I respect your right to your opinion and I only asked for mine and I am sad that I had to fight for it. If you think I am wrong to say the above then I will respect your opinion and be gone for good. I hate fighting. But I hope you can see that some changes can be good for the board and some things needed to be corrected, and if my staying will make us stronger than before, then I will like nothing more but I don't want to stay so that we could just keep fighting and not change ourselves. I love you guys a lot and I want to think of you at your best.

Whenever people talk and understand each other, it always makes them closer, and makes the relationship stronger. And this will make the board as a whole stronger.

As I was reading through your posts, I couldn't help but think a lot of the issue was with Gman too. So, I can only hope he will address your concerns that pertain to him.

I have one last thing that I want to make clear Neo. While I don't think TE is the best creation explanation, I really have no problem if someone believes TE. If I didn't hold to PC, I would most likely lean towards some kind of TE. And, I'm open enough, that if I believe the evidence points to TE in the future, I would consider it.

So, your TE belief is not a problem with me, it was the way you presented certain things. I hope I have helped us move through this. And I am very thankful that you are my Brother in Christ.

I looked at thefirst link neo provided in the resource thread.

It starts with:

You've been told that "evolution is just a theory", a guess, a hunch, and not a fact, not proven. You've been misled

It ends with:

Evolution is not just a theory, it's triumphantly a theory!

And in faq I found this:

The Theory of Evolution has over 150 years of actual, scientifically tested and verified supportive evidence. In science, things don't get proven, they get supported.

To me the text is confusing. Only what they claim at the end is that evolution is a theory having supportive evidence. So
I wonder why they made such bombastic intro.

Definition of a fact from merriam webster
: something that truly exists or happens : something that has actual existence
: a true piece of information

P.s. tomorrow, god willing, will check another links

Rick, thank you for your detailed response.

I never meant that you can't hold to evolution as a fact. I know you believe evolution is a fact. The problem, as I explained before, was that you came across as if those who don't see the 'fact' of evolution as you see it, are ignorant, and don't really look at the evidence. As far as this board is concerned, Theistic Evolution is one creation stance. It is not "the only valid" creation stance. This board is open to have all opinions and beliefs regarding creation stances, discussed. As long as we all understand that people have different creation stance beliefs, and there's no place for dogmatism on this forum regarding creation.

I think T.E is the only valid stance and if someone disagrees then he is free to. I don't mind that and I sure don't hope to convince them otherwise. But how does that make it dogma, I am not forcing anyone to follow me or my stance. All are free to choose their own creation stance and make of it what they think. Just as I don't ask you to not consider your stance as the only valid one, I am not asking anyone to agree with me.

Neo wrote:
Rick, if you hold PC as the most convincing thing to your heart, would you like being forced to say that YEC is true and evolution is true as well, even when you don't agree with it? But you can disagree; respecting does not mean you have to agree with me. I find PC, YEC, false, should I then respect them by agreeing with them? But I should respect you brother. And if you find it true and convincing then we can discuss, debate and leave it where it is. I have absolutely no right to stop you to not express what you think is true or say something which must be in line with what I believe.

Nobody was forcing you to accept YEC or PC. My point was that if you came across as just stating evolution as your belief, INSTEAD of dogmatically declaring it as a fact, and insulting those who disagree, then there would have been no issue with me.

Rick, I think evolution is a fact and I will say what I find true. You can say what you find true. Why do you have to ask me to say "its a belief" when its not? How can I say that? I can't. God started evolution, is a belief 100% and I agree I can call T.E a belief. But evolution is a fact and that is science its not a belief.

I never said you weren't giving proof of evolution. You mixed your threads that were supposed to be resource threads about evolution, with threads that have a blog thats sole purpose is to insult God, and discredit Creationism.

Please pass me the link if this certain blog, I will check the post I linked and see if it insults God? And if it does I will remove it.

Rick, I apologized to you earlier, and I do so again now, it was a very bad choice of words and my mistake when I talked about you taking science lessons from pastors, I am sorry I said that. I was wrong in your case, but a lot of people actually do that exactly and I have seen it plenty. I was under the wrong impression in your case and I hope you can see I didn't use those words again once I found that it wasn't so with you.


I understand, and I accept your apology. But what you said, added fuel to the fire. And it came across as arrogant and dogmatic.

I hope we can put that behind us now.

FL's recent comments about me baffled me because I don't think I fit the description of an anti-Semite or that I am a fellow who “bad-mouths” Israel and Jews just for the sake of it. I was actually asked to provide an explanation. Now I don't mind that and I did give my reasons to post that video but a video showing rabbi's sucking penises in circumcision is at worst a shot against the practice but not because they are Jews. Heck, I understand why it’s vulgar but I don't understand how it’s anti-Semitism? They are engaged in a questionable act, Jews or not. I would have had equal objection if it was Christians or Muslims or Sikhs. What does that tell me? It means mods also have soft areas and they don't like it being questioned, the same way we do and I respect that, I totally do…but we should not be unfair, no matter how much we love a thing. There is a fine line between respecting something and sugar coating faults to the point where truth becomes hard to accept.

After FL and i discussed this, and he realized the stuff you posted really happens, he was as shocked as you and I were. I explained this to you before, here:

RickD wrote:
To be fair, FL posted that on mini chat before he was aware that the video Neo posted was actually true.
At first glance by watching the video and seeing all the comments underneath, it just seemed like an anti Semitic, anti God video.
FL was as shocked as I was, to find out the practice is real.

So, FL's comments to me on mini chat happened because he thought Neo was just posting an anti Semitic video. And Neo wasn't.
And frankly, I thought it may be an anti Semitic video too, until I looked into it. The practice is performed within Judaism. But from what I've seen, there are rabbis speaking out against it.


So that issue should have been dropped.

I understand that Rick, what I don't understand is and was my point for posting it that we kind of have the wrong definition of Antisemitism being used here. Somehow people think anyone who remotely criticizes Jews is an anti semite, we need to correct this. The issue with FL was dropped earlier and to stir it again was not the reason I posted this point here again.

There is no board purpose which demands that evolution must be called a belief or a Christian like me who does not hold Adam and eve factual, is going against board rules and purposes. So on what grounds was I asked to back down or for having an agenda?

Again, only speaking for myself, it wasn't your belief that was my issue. It was the way you presented it as "fact", and insulting others that didn't believe as you do.

I think if I drop the insulting part, then there should be no problem, right?

I asked him for an explanation then and I would like an explanation now but Rick, you were there, you read it, why didn't you question it or stopped it? Does it not sound like an insult, an ultimatum to you? It sure sounded to me. It was like he was addressing a troll who just dropped out and was about to be kicked.

I tried to address this in the Moderator forum. While I won't go into details, I told Gman that I thought he was going about this the wrong way. So, while you didn't see it, it wasn't ignored by me.

Ok Rick, but you would agree that does not do a good job, for one, Gman made no corrections, he didn't gave any explanation for his behaviour and third I wasn't even given a hint that some action is being taken against bully behaviour by a mod when I had complained too in the op in this thread. I wish you would see that it establishes communications and root out misunderstandings. While I am glad you questioned this, I sure didn't see what happened as a result.

This issue is deeper than evolution vs. creation guys. In the past we lost members because some were Calvinists or Yec’s because of same attitudes. Now that I have stepped in those shoes, I can understand how they must have felt when we did not gave them the same grace we afford and now I have also reaped what I sowed in the past. We all have been guilty but I don't want this to happen again to any of us just because we differ on doctrines and ideas.

I was guilty in that whole Calvinism issue too. So, I don't want to see it happen again because of differing beliefs.

Yes, same here Rick.

Debate and disagree is one thing, forcing people to bend in line is another.


I wasn't forcing you to believe something you don't want to believe. I was just trying to get you to see that calling your belief a fact, is the wrong way to go about it. For example: If a respected board member posted a resource thread about YEC, and stated YEC as a fact, and those who disagree with him get their theology from their favorite scientists, not from scripture, you can bet your booty that I would have an issue with it.

Sure Rick, but that is exactly what Gman told me, calling my stance a lie, a false belief, a weak belief...implying I am swept away by scientists and fancy "dribble" and I didn't see anyone having an issue with that. So I am to back down but others need not to? And by what you said you should have an issue with that too.

The thing is I only see the disrespecting others part as objectionable. I have no problems with a board member who is a Yec and calls it a fact, starting a resource thread, I don't see why that is problematic. That may be a very good discussion debate without insults of course.

Look here Rick, when you say to me "that I have a potential to lead others astray" as you said in the christians rejecting O.T thread, how respectful does that sound? And it all started back in that thread. All because I find evolution true and Adam and eve not factual? Plenty of christians don't find adam and eve as literal, they just call it allegory. I simply didn't because to me it sounds dishonest. No one has to agree with me but its vice versa too. Then you posted links saying that how I get my facts is just a make believe story that scientists came up with using arbitrary models. Now that is patently false. Its not a matter of opinion here we are talking about science now. And I am saying this right now to highlight why I even went on to say that some of you get your science lessons from pastors, because what that article claimed was actually wrong and you insisted it isn't, in fact your article said that all T.E get their "facts" like this. That was unfair and I responded likewise. This is not an excuse and not "you started it", no; I want to focus on why there is an issue to begin with. I was happy in stating what I find true and happy that you disagree but when you say that I am not getting my facts correctly you can see why I wouldn't say the same. We both needed to back down, we should have had.

Guys, its wrong to just paint anyone as lost, leading others astray, who is not in agreement, that makes it more than that. It shows how evolution is not a welcome topic. If you subscribe to PC, i can disagree but I can't say you are lost or leading others astray. But if I subscribe to evolution and find it true than I am? Or that makes me somehow reject christ, salvation or the bible as worthless? These are all the straw man accusations. Plus my comment about many people taking science lessons from pastors was also an observation from real life. My family is yec and they do it. I am sure a Yec like Jac, knows what he is talking about but I don't see a lot of people investing time in research, they do follow what their pastor tells them, even if it is science thing. That is the dangerous path, to accept views not personally researched, it goes for people who blindly follow dawkins to people who follow Ross, KenHam, anyone. I am glad you do not do it Rick, but beleive me a lot of people do.

And I guess there will remain some disagreement on what you find at reasons.org and I find else where. I think people misrepresent evolution as held, and knock it down easily. Hugh even posted some very nice critiques of some of the videos you posted and articles you linked. Some of the points being made a misrepresentations and not true at all. So when you present it, I have to disagree and my brotherly advice is that its not a good place to get science resources.

I know a member on this forum, who I won't name but who cannot post here properly on a subject because a certain mod will take dislike and might boot him in his prejudice. This is troubling. I respect that poster and I cringe that this is what it has come to. This is unfair guys, this is against this board’s spirit and it’s against Christian spirit in which we claim to use this board. You may say I am stretching it but no, I think there is a real problem, deep down and we need to root it out before we lose more good people.

If you want to pm me this info, maybe I can help. Keep in mind, if this member is not a believer, he will be given much less leeway. And there could also be extenuating circumstances, depending on who the member in question is.

No Rick, I won't pm this info, I do not have permission from the said member. I hope they can see a change in the atmosphere soon and say it themselves.

Rick, I humbly want to say and clear a few things. I think T.E is a belief, I agree with you all the way, we have no disagreement on this. But I don't think or can accept unless proven otherwise that evolution, a science mechanism, is a belief. It is not. And I don't appreciate that I am required to negate this. Outside of this board a healthy scientific community thinks its not because there is plenty of evidence its not. I have been studying some of it for more than a year and my conclusions are solid with what I have seen and read.

As far as I see, insults are the only thing which should be avoided. I get to say what I find true and you can say what you find true. I am happy to have others consider what they find true to be true. But the idea that I should call what I find true to be just a belief is what troubles me. T.E is a belief but I absolutely don't hold evolution by the same standard, nor do i find evidence that suggests so.

I really don't get when I call evolution a fact, that just insults all other views. It does not unless I personally insult others. I call God a fact, does that mean I should not because that makes an atheist uncomfortable. This is not good logic. Besides insults which no camp should do, I find it odd that I am labeled dogmatic for this.

I have one last thing that I want to make clear Neo. While I don't think T.E is the best creation explanation, I really have no problem if someone believes TE. If I didn't hold to PC, I would most likely lean towards some kind of TE. And, I'm open enough, that if I believe the evidence points to TE in the future, I would consider it.

So, your TE belief is not a problem with me, it was the way you presented certain things. I hope I have helped us move through this. And I am very thankful that you are my Brother in Christ.

Same here Rick. Same here. You are a dear brother. I hope my post can clear some things up. Don't think I have included the "Christians rejecting O.T" thread reference for any explanations or accusations. I don't want to start all over again. I just hope you can see my point.

As for the rest, I respect Gman as a brother but I am not comfortable at all with his tone and actions as a mod. And I would like to know what you, the mods would do about it, lest it be repeated, which should be unacceptable without some sort of correction. I had hoped he would talk about this but anyways...

For the rest, I am taking brotherly advice from most of you here (and off the board) who have suggested this to me, I am taking some time off the board, a couple of months perhaps. I will return. And I hope things have changed a little and settled down by then.

My best wishes and love to you all.

And I want to thank Hana for posting those verses. I saw an utter lack of humility and patience on my side as well. I could have done better than what I did. Reminded of how we should behave towards others and how we usually do.

Rick, I have only found three articles which you might be referring to as objectionable

Ten Specific Predictions of Evolution

Things That Would Falsify Evolution

What would disprove evolution?

Rick, while the links come from a blog which is anti-creation and to be honest, evolution negates creation, the three articles, do not insult God at all. Infact if you read those in detail you will find that they challenge creationism in a very small way. Instead 95% of the content on these articles is about what would it take science to disapprove science. New evidence, new predictions, false predictions etc. You may not agree with the sites' over all purpose and content, they support evolution and critique ID, but I do not find any bashing/insulting of God in these three posts and to be honest neither I found creationism being bashed for the sake of it.

If I have overlooked a link or a passage in these articles please cite it so that its easy for me to read it. My intention for posting it was the points about evolution and how can it be dismissed, nothing else.

Missed this, but at first I was puzzled...

but then came across over a few posts where I can see odds remarks here and there, so I guess I assume pervade other post too.

Neo-x, take a break and come back in a couple of months. It helps, and often there are a few new posters who can change the things up a little.

I mean... hopefully in a couple of months your country may be less Muslim... or you move to India or something? Sorry, those comments were quite amusing... but also sad at the same time as did sound like FL was bashing your life and country quite a bit. *sigh*

All the best!

neo-x wrote:Rick, thank you for your detailed response.

I never meant that you can't hold to evolution as a fact. I know you believe evolution is a fact. The problem, as I explained before, was that you came across as if those who don't see the 'fact' of evolution as you see it, are ignorant, and don't really look at the evidence. As far as this board is concerned, Theistic Evolution is one creation stance. It is not "the only valid" creation stance. This board is open to have all opinions and beliefs regarding creation stances, discussed. As long as we all understand that people have different creation stance beliefs, and there's no place for dogmatism on this forum regarding creation.

I think T.E is the only valid stance and if someone disagrees then he is free to. I don't mind that and I sure don't hope to convince them otherwise. But how does that make it dogma, I am not forcing anyone to follow me or my stance. All are free to choose their own creation stance and make of it what they think. Just as I don't ask you to not consider your stance as the only valid one, I am not asking anyone to agree with me.

Neo wrote:
Rick, if you hold PC as the most convincing thing to your heart, would you like being forced to say that YEC is true and evolution is true as well, even when you don't agree with it? But you can disagree; respecting does not mean you have to agree with me. I find PC, YEC, false, should I then respect them by agreeing with them? But I should respect you brother. And if you find it true and convincing then we can discuss, debate and leave it where it is. I have absolutely no right to stop you to not express what you think is true or say something which must be in line with what I believe.

Nobody was forcing you to accept YEC or PC. My point was that if you came across as just stating evolution as your belief, INSTEAD of dogmatically declaring it as a fact, and insulting those who disagree, then there would have been no issue with me.

Rick, I think evolution is a fact and I will say what I find true. You can say what you find true. Why do you have to ask me to say "its a belief" when its not? How can I say that? I can't. God started evolution, is a belief 100% and I agree I can call T.E a belief. But evolution is a fact and that is science its not a belief.

I never said you weren't giving proof of evolution. You mixed your threads that were supposed to be resource threads about evolution, with threads that have a blog thats sole purpose is to insult God, and discredit Creationism.

Please pass me the link if this certain blog, I will check the post I linked and see if it insults God? And if it does I will remove it.

Rick, I apologized to you earlier, and I do so again now, it was a very bad choice of words and my mistake when I talked about you taking science lessons from pastors, I am sorry I said that. I was wrong in your case, but a lot of people actually do that exactly and I have seen it plenty. I was under the wrong impression in your case and I hope you can see I didn't use those words again once I found that it wasn't so with you.


I understand, and I accept your apology. But what you said, added fuel to the fire. And it came across as arrogant and dogmatic.

I hope we can put that behind us now.

FL's recent comments about me baffled me because I don't think I fit the description of an anti-Semite or that I am a fellow who “bad-mouths” Israel and Jews just for the sake of it. I was actually asked to provide an explanation. Now I don't mind that and I did give my reasons to post that video but a video showing rabbi's sucking penises in circumcision is at worst a shot against the practice but not because they are Jews. Heck, I understand why it’s vulgar but I don't understand how it’s anti-Semitism? They are engaged in a questionable act, Jews or not. I would have had equal objection if it was Christians or Muslims or Sikhs. What does that tell me? It means mods also have soft areas and they don't like it being questioned, the same way we do and I respect that, I totally do…but we should not be unfair, no matter how much we love a thing. There is a fine line between respecting something and sugar coating faults to the point where truth becomes hard to accept.

After FL and i discussed this, and he realized the stuff you posted really happens, he was as shocked as you and I were. I explained this to you before, here:

RickD wrote:
To be fair, FL posted that on mini chat before he was aware that the video Neo posted was actually true.
At first glance by watching the video and seeing all the comments underneath, it just seemed like an anti Semitic, anti God video.
FL was as shocked as I was, to find out the practice is real.

So, FL's comments to me on mini chat happened because he thought Neo was just posting an anti Semitic video. And Neo wasn't.
And frankly, I thought it may be an anti Semitic video too, until I looked into it. The practice is performed within Judaism. But from what I've seen, there are rabbis speaking out against it.


So that issue should have been dropped.

I understand that Rick, what I don't understand is and was my point for posting it that we kind of have the wrong definition of Antisemitism being used here. Somehow people think anyone who remotely criticizes Jews is an anti semite, we need to correct this. The issue with FL was dropped earlier and to stir it again was not the reason I posted this point here again.

There is no board purpose which demands that evolution must be called a belief or a Christian like me who does not hold Adam and eve factual, is going against board rules and purposes. So on what grounds was I asked to back down or for having an agenda?

Again, only speaking for myself, it wasn't your belief that was my issue. It was the way you presented it as "fact", and insulting others that didn't believe as you do.

I think if I drop the insulting part, then there should be no problem, right?

I asked him for an explanation then and I would like an explanation now but Rick, you were there, you read it, why didn't you question it or stopped it? Does it not sound like an insult, an ultimatum to you? It sure sounded to me. It was like he was addressing a troll who just dropped out and was about to be kicked.

I tried to address this in the Moderator forum. While I won't go into details, I told Gman that I thought he was going about this the wrong way. So, while you didn't see it, it wasn't ignored by me.

Ok Rick, but you would agree that does not do a good job, for one, Gman made no corrections, he didn't gave any explanation for his behaviour and third I wasn't even given a hint that some action is being taken against bully behaviour by a mod when I had complained too in the op in this thread. I wish you would see that it establishes communications and root out misunderstandings. While I am glad you questioned this, I sure didn't see what happened as a result.

This issue is deeper than evolution vs. creation guys. In the past we lost members because some were Calvinists or Yec’s because of same attitudes. Now that I have stepped in those shoes, I can understand how they must have felt when we did not gave them the same grace we afford and now I have also reaped what I sowed in the past. We all have been guilty but I don't want this to happen again to any of us just because we differ on doctrines and ideas.

I was guilty in that whole Calvinism issue too. So, I don't want to see it happen again because of differing beliefs.

Yes, same here Rick.

Debate and disagree is one thing, forcing people to bend in line is another.


I wasn't forcing you to believe something you don't want to believe. I was just trying to get you to see that calling your belief a fact, is the wrong way to go about it. For example: If a respected board member posted a resource thread about YEC, and stated YEC as a fact, and those who disagree with him get their theology from their favorite scientists, not from scripture, you can bet your booty that I would have an issue with it.

Sure Rick, but that is exactly what Gman told me, calling my stance a lie, a false belief, a weak belief...implying I am swept away by scientists and fancy "dribble" and I didn't see anyone having an issue with that. So I am to back down but others need not to? And by what you said you should have an issue with that too.

The thing is I only see the disrespecting others part as objectionable. I have no problems with a board member who is a Yec and calls it a fact, starting a resource thread, I don't see why that is problematic. That may be a very good discussion debate without insults of course.

Look here Rick, when you say to me "that I have a potential to lead others astray" as you said in the christians rejecting O.T thread, how respectful does that sound? And it all started back in that thread. All because I find evolution true and Adam and eve not factual? Plenty of christians don't find adam and eve as literal, they just call it allegory. I simply didn't because to me it sounds dishonest. No one has to agree with me but its vice versa too. Then you posted links saying that how I get my facts is just a make believe story that scientists came up with using arbitrary models. Now that is patently false. Its not a matter of opinion here we are talking about science now. And I am saying this right now to highlight why I even went on to say that some of you get your science lessons from pastors, because what that article claimed was actually wrong and you insisted it isn't, in fact your article said that all T.E get their "facts" like this. That was unfair and I responded likewise. This is not an excuse and not "you started it", no; I want to focus on why there is an issue to begin with. I was happy in stating what I find true and happy that you disagree but when you say that I am not getting my facts correctly you can see why I wouldn't say the same. We both needed to back down, we should have had.

Guys, its wrong to just paint anyone as lost, leading others astray, who is not in agreement, that makes it more than that. It shows how evolution is not a welcome topic. If you subscribe to PC, i can disagree but I can't say you are lost or leading others astray. But if I subscribe to evolution and find it true than I am? Or that makes me somehow reject christ, salvation or the bible as worthless? These are all the straw man accusations. Plus my comment about many people taking science lessons from pastors was also an observation from real life. My family is yec and they do it. I am sure a Yec like Jac, knows what he is talking about but I don't see a lot of people investing time in research, they do follow what their pastor tells them, even if it is science thing. That is the dangerous path, to accept views not personally researched, it goes for people who blindly follow dawkins to people who follow Ross, KenHam, anyone. I am glad you do not do it Rick, but beleive me a lot of people do.

And I guess there will remain some disagreement on what you find at reasons.org and I find else where. I think people misrepresent evolution as held, and knock it down easily. Hugh even posted some very nice critiques of some of the videos you posted and articles you linked. Some of the points being made a misrepresentations and not true at all. So when you present it, I have to disagree and my brotherly advice is that its not a good place to get science resources.

I know a member on this forum, who I won't name but who cannot post here properly on a subject because a certain mod will take dislike and might boot him in his prejudice. This is troubling. I respect that poster and I cringe that this is what it has come to. This is unfair guys, this is against this board’s spirit and it’s against Christian spirit in which we claim to use this board. You may say I am stretching it but no, I think there is a real problem, deep down and we need to root it out before we lose more good people.

If you want to pm me this info, maybe I can help. Keep in mind, if this member is not a believer, he will be given much less leeway. And there could also be extenuating circumstances, depending on who the member in question is.

No Rick, I won't pm this info, I do not have permission from the said member. I hope they can see a change in the atmosphere soon and say it themselves.

Rick, I humbly want to say and clear a few things. I think T.E is a belief, I agree with you all the way, we have no disagreement on this. But I don't think or can accept unless proven otherwise that evolution, a science mechanism, is a belief. It is not. And I don't appreciate that I am required to negate this. Outside of this board a healthy scientific community thinks its not because there is plenty of evidence its not. I have been studying some of it for more than a year and my conclusions are solid with what I have seen and read.

As far as I see, insults are the only thing which should be avoided. I get to say what I find true and you can say what you find true. I am happy to have others consider what they find true to be true. But the idea that I should call what I find true to be just a belief is what troubles me. T.E is a belief but I absolutely don't hold evolution by the same standard, nor do i find evidence that suggests so.

I really don't get when I call evolution a fact, that just insults all other views. It does not unless I personally insult others. I call God a fact, does that mean I should not because that makes an atheist uncomfortable. This is not good logic. Besides insults which no camp should do, I find it odd that I am labeled dogmatic for this.

I have one last thing that I want to make clear Neo. While I don't think T.E is the best creation explanation, I really have no problem if someone believes TE. If I didn't hold to PC, I would most likely lean towards some kind of TE. And, I'm open enough, that if I believe the evidence points to TE in the future, I would consider it.

So, your TE belief is not a problem with me, it was the way you presented certain things. I hope I have helped us move through this. And I am very thankful that you are my Brother in Christ.

Same here Rick. Same here. You are a dear brother. I hope my post can clear some things up. Don't think I have included the "Christians rejecting O.T" thread reference for any explanations or accusations. I don't want to start all over again. I just hope you can see my point.

As for the rest, I respect Gman as a brother but I am not comfortable at all with his tone and actions as a mod. And I would like to know what you, the mods would do about it, lest it be repeated, which should be unacceptable without some sort of correction. I had hoped he would talk about this but anyways...

For the rest, I am taking brotherly advice from most of you here (and off the board) who have suggested this to me, I am taking some time off the board, a couple of months perhaps. I will return. And I hope things have changed a little and settled down by then.

My best wishes and love to you all.

Neo, much of what you wrote here is a misunderstanding on your part, of what I was actually saying. Your misunderstanding me may have been my fault for the way I communicated what I was trying to say. When I get home, I will go over this post, and try to explain it more clearly.

I think this whole notion of calling something a fact or a belief is just utterly silly. I don't see the harm in anyone calling something a fact. Does it make it so? Perhaps, or maybe not. If one disagrees with a 'fact' let them state why and let's move on.

Byblos wrote:I think this whole notion of calling something a fact or a belief is just utterly silly. I don't see the harm in anyone calling something a fact. Does it make it so? Perhaps, or maybe not. If one disagrees with a 'fact' let them state why and let's move on.

It's not just calling something a fact that's the problem. It's calling ones beliefs a fact, while insulting those who disagree with that 'fact'.

I'm not sure why everyone is having a hard time understanding this.

If everyone made posts saying their creation stance is fact, and insulting those with differing views, then it could get pretty miserable around here.(not that it's not getting miserable now).