Evidence for God from Science

Seraph wrote:Let's be honest here. While a person using their God-given reason while seeking genuinely after God will probably reject the Quran with it's violence and hatred, is that same person going to see the Bible as any different?

I don't know. Each person is different. Each one of us has our own prejudices and unconscious assumptions that pervert our understanding of whatever it is we are reading. You have to consider these two points:

1. Biblical descriptions of violence are mostly descriptive; those few that are prescriptive are judgements of God against a person or a group.
2. The Koran prescribes violence - or forced submission - against infidels .

Another thing: you don't deduce that the Bible is God's Word with your ''God-given'' reason because that would be impossible. Read that again: impossible.

Seraph wrote:

Ask yourself, ''Why would an angelic being visit a madman living in a cave?'' ...because that is what Muhammad was: a madman holed up in a cave.

You mean much like Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, and John the Baptist?

Moses, Elijah and John were prophets and confirmed as such by fulfillment of their prophecies. Muhammad never prophecied anything and was so terrified by the aparition in the cave that he wanted to kill himself.

FL

As I've been reading (slowly) through the old testament, I've read a lot of disturbing things. But I'm not sure any of them can be pinned on God except about a half a dozen. When I probe these select events even more, I've been able to conclude that God was just in his actions. I think what confuses the reader sometimes is:

1. Sinful actions recorded in the OT are not from God, yet sometimes read like they are. For instance, Saul does some terrible things while looking for David. But in know way does God condone his actions. That example is a little more obvious than some. But the fact of the matter is that some of the horrific action taken in the OT are that of man's choice rather than God's.

2. The details are often scarce. One of the incidents that doesn't sit well with me is in either Exodus or Numbers (can't recall) when a man blasphemes and they take him to Moses because the punishment for blasphemy is stoning. Moses consults God and God tells Moses to have the man stoned. So they do it. The guy dies. At first glance, I think "God, what is that, we've all sinned". But upon further consideration I realize that the command had just been given so he knew the consequence, the man was probably spreading hatred towards God, and God knew the man's heart which was likely bent against God and unwilling to be corrected. It seems harsh, but if I go around killing people, and society decides I deserve capital punishment, that is well deserved. How much worse is any offence towards God? Hard to comprehend, but reality is that blasphemy in this context is probably worse. The point of all that is sometimes the details are vague and when paired up with our modern way of living, God's actions seem harsh. But in reality they are just.

I still struggle with a couple of the things God commands in the OT. But I submit that I don't know the circumstances surrounding God's decisions well enough to judge God himself.

Plus, we all have to remember that God takes the LONG view of a person's life, heart and motives - his or her decisions as to whether or not they want to forever remain a rebel against the Lord. But there will be NO rebels in heaven - only those who have repented and embraced the Lord. Related to this is the fact that God intimately knows the hearts of people and He knows those who, no matter how many chances they are given or how much time, will NEVER, EVER desire to repent. These are people who are permanently entrenched in their desire to make themselves their own god, who, ultimately, want THEIR way in ALL matters. They don't appreciate or desire the eternal things and blessings God offers them - nor do they even appreciate how He has ALREADY provided for them. And so, for such permanent rebels, in God's eyes, whether they are given endless chances to repent and obey, and are allowed to live a long life, or whether He allows or causes them to be cut down well before expected lifespan, their ETERNAL fate and doom are the very same: an eternity of punishment, apart from God. And so, for such people, it truly doesn't matter WHEN or HOW they die.

Ok, with the recent beheading of James Foley, I started to dig into this subject again, but more in a morbid sense. I started to wonder how real these radicals are like ISIS. Turns out these people are wicked, evil, sick murderers. Who knew?

Seriously, I didn't actually realize how evil these people are. No chance they don't understand their evil murderous acts are against what a true peaceful god would want...

Ok but that's like,,, less than 1% of muslims. I mean I know some muslims and they're great. And they'd never do this. And do we need reminding of the horrific things people have done in the name of Christ. I wouldn't want to be painted with the same brush.

So then, my question is this. Christians can point to the Bible and teachings of Christ and say, the evil things people did in the name of Christ were not Christian acts, they were evil and sinful and condemned by Christianity. But can muslims say the same thing about Islam? Can a muslim living here in Canada say, those actions are against the Koran. ? It seems to me that Mohammad was wicked like these ISIS terrorists and that muslims living here in North America are actually the minority. This religion is quite sick when you consider the beheadings they do, the forced conversions, violence, etc.

I've done a hundred and eighty degrees here. Someone please tell me these terrorists are not muslim. Please. Before I was worried that Islam was just misrepresented. Now I'm worried that this is more real than I ever thought. Talk about living in a bubble

I had a friend in college. He was muslim and a very good person. I can't imagine he would agree with this stuff. Any sensible person would know better right???

ryanbouma wrote: Christians can point to the Bible and teachings of Christ and say, the evil things people did in the name of Christ were not Christian acts, they were evil and sinful and condemned by Christianity. But can muslims say the same thing about Islam? Can a muslim living here in Canada say, those actions are against the Koran ?

No. Muslims can't use the Koran to discredit what their co-religionist terrorists are doing. Muslims who claim that Islam is a ''religion of peace'' are speaking from ignorance. The Koran prescribes either 1) submission by payment of the dhimmi tax for Jews and Christians, or 2) conversion to Islam, or 3) death. For other religions, the choice is either #2 or #3.

Another thing: Islam also has a book called - in English - The Reliance Of The Traveller which spells out the punishments to be meted out to infidels and reprobate Muslims. The Reliance Of The Traveller is the source, the embodiment, of Sharia, and has equal standing as the Koran to devout Muslims. Plus, the Hadiths - which are the reflections of Muslim sages - also have divine weight. This last source of divine knowledge, the Hadiths, is where some Muslims claim can be found [the lie] that ''Islam is a religion of peace.''

One last thing: Allah permits his followers to lie in order to trick/seduce infidels, so just be aware of that.

ryanbouma wrote:Someone please tell me these terrorists are not muslim.

OK...these terrorists are not Muslim.

Anyway, don't worry. Christians are not to worry.

FL

Much of the Muslim world shakes in terror at this ISIS bunch. The kingdoms have long funneled money to various radicals, and now realize they have helped finance a beast that will devour even them - if it gets the opportunity. This is why many Muslim leaders privately are glad that Israel has been laying waste to Hamas - as they are radical Islamists, equally dangerous to themselves as they are to the West. Get these guys in power anywhere and after they decimate their conquered territory, they'll eventually start killing each other over Islamic purity and authenticity issues. Truth is, you just can't learn to hate like these people and then only hate just your adversaries, as their kind of hate saturates the mind and senses. This is why the Muslim factions all hate each other as much as they do Israel and the West. If you happen to follow the teachings of a different grandson of Muhammed than the next fellow, then he is your enemy and you are his.

Ok so then are the 'normal' Muslims just living in a self-lie? Do they just pretend these Shia rules don't exist? Seems to me they must, or somehow justify it in their head or something. I know a lot of Christians don't tackle the OT because of some of the difficult subject matter, however I myself have no problem with it. Somehow though I think Islam is in a whole other league when it comes to difficult subject matter.

Here's a great interview on Islam. The man was an extremist Muslim who even planted bombs (luckily no one was killed) but came to Christ.

Weekend Report: The Weekend Vigilante & The Hagmann & Hagman

ryanbouma wrote:
Ok so then are the 'normal' Muslims just living in a self-lie? Do they just pretend these [Sharia] rules don't exist?

No self-deception is involved. Secular Muslims are pretty much like secular ''Christians.'' I have a Muslim friend who has never read the Qur'an, doesn't attend mosque, enjoys fine scotch and wines and never fasts at Ramadan. Most people - of any religious tradition - cannot be bothered with all this religion stuff. So, while they know the religious rules, they just ignore them.

FL

Stu wrote:Here's a great interview on Islam. The man was an extremist Muslim who even planted bombs (luckily no one was killed) but came to Christ.

Weekend Report: The Weekend Vigilante & The Hagmann & Hagman

Gonna see this while ironing. Looks interesting.

Edit: am not sure about the reliability as I listen to it

Thanks all.

As it turns out, RTB just posted a podcast about this subject! It confirmed that the moderate Muslims simply aren't checking their own facts closely. I like Ken Samples but this Travis guy he's been including on the show is excellent. He provides great information.

I believe God is God by any other name, like a rose is a rose by any other name. If you want to call a dog a chien it is still a dog in English. What about people that really think they are following Jesus of he KJV and are ready to kill for God to bring the Kingdom of Jesus to earth?? That two makes me wonder, is a word really important or the meaning we give to the word. Doctrine is so important, and most Christians do not think it is. I ma refering not to the Quran of course which I believe was one of the best deception tools of the enemy. But i am talking about the Word of God the Scripture as they were originally given to the prophets in our Bible, which is a translation of the Word. There is so much misunderstaning in the christian world as in the Muslim world. The difference is Jesus of the Bible will guide us into the right doctrine by his Holy spirt. What about Christians who are Arabs? there bible calls God "Allah" I think it is all in context of what you believe Allah is or God or Yahweh or Dunkelbrot if that is what you want to call GOd. It is the context of what doctrine you beleive. There are many "jesuses" And many "christians' are deceived to follow another "jesus" which to me is much more insidious that out and out obvious deception of following Mohamed the false prophet. I believe there is no other way to come the Father but by Jesus. And the Creator or Father or Allah is still the same if you believe Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life and no man can come to Allah but through His finished work as it is in our Bible. Names will not get you in the Kingdom no matter what you call God. remember MAtthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ There are other "jesuses" and other gospels Gal 1;6"As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.' We need to know the scriptures and the holy spirit to know the real Jesus. But he is also called "ihu", Icyc, Jeesus, Ciise. What is important is that we are disciples and follow the Jesus in the Bible no matter in what language. God knows them all.

Perhaps we should ask, "Is the Allah of the (Arab) bible, the same as Allah of the Koran?"

Btw, welcome to the board, fasteel.

Any religion that teaches works for salvation is a false religion and Islam is no different than all of the other false religions of the world as they all teach works,that you can save yourself if you do these things,follow these rules,dress this way,eat these things,etc Christianity is the only unique religion that teaches there is nothing you can do to save yourself no matter what you do or follow and that salvation cannot be earned but is just a gift we get through grace from God through Jesus Christ.Once we recieve Christ and are saved we are as saved as we will ever be and there is NOTHING we can do to make ourselves more saved than when we were first saved,all we do is grow as Christians.He already fulfilled all of the works for us this is why it is good news that nobody should reject.God made it easy for us to be saved and Jesus gives us rest.Islam is no different than Jehovah Witnesses because they both teach works for salvation,this is why terrorists carry out Jihad as they think they can work there way to heaven.

I actually believe Jehovah Witnesses is the most deceptive false religion there is because they have reinterpreted the bible to say what they want it to say.Mormonism is false too but atleast somebody can read the bible and the book of Mormon and see the differences and contradictions in it.