Evidence for God from Science

JackHectorman wrote:My statement is true. "It is the job of the Christian Church to gradually and incrementally over the coming decades, centuries, and millenniums to make America a better nation state."__Jack H.

Can it, Jack. Your eschatology has derailed into a mystical mess. I get the distinct impression that you are a spiritual cousin of YEC Integrists or KJV Onlyists or British Israelists...

Since your belief that the Church must work ''to make America a better nation state'' isn't a salvation issue, I don't mind. You can't harm yourself or anyone with this belief, so continue following your idea.

FL

Jack Hectorman:

If you invent an economic system that is better than capitalism, you will be a mega-billionaire and have enormous amounts of money to help the poor of the world and other causes about which you feel strongly.

The Lord already did.. He said...It is more blessed to GIVE than to receive.....and commands us to love our neighbor as ourselves.

This was demonstrated perfectly and zealously in Acts 2.......not 21st century Sodom..... America

Cut-throat capitalism.....hardly fits....and Mexico is the perfect example....of an incredibly prosperous Aristocracy..( number 12 largest economy in the world)..but with very little regulation and so much corruption......over 85% of that "Catholic Capitalist Country"...has desperate poverty...and cannot run over the border fast enough...

So ...your exuberant exaltation of any one economic system..is unfounded.

America has 5% of the world's population and spends about 40% of the world's spending on weapons of death and destruction...

The sign of maturity ...is pressing on and walking worthy of the high calling to which we were called....and sacrificing like the widow that Christ praised in proportional
giving.
.......Jesus said.....when you do a good deed...
Matthew 6

1 "Take care! Don't do your good deeds publicly, to be admired, because then you will lose the reward from your Father in heaven. 2 When you give a gift to someone in need, don't shout about it as the hypocrites do -- blowing trumpets in the synagogues and streets to call attention to their acts of charity! I assure you, they have received all the reward they will ever get. 3 But when you give to someone, don't tell your left hand what your right hand is doing. 4 Give your gifts in secret, and your Father, who knows all secrets, will reward you.

....so when I hear all this boasting about how much U.S. money is given.....it's wealth..

I answer with the perspective I find from the mouth of Christ....not a pundit on Christian radio..

Living in a culture that values material wealth and power and fame.....and has an entitlement mindset....of what can I get......but I don't want to pay taxes....is where we are at......while our infrastructure and stability as a nation is in peril.

....Jack...you are trying to ignore the relationship of America's God forsaken culture.....it's divorces, crime, murders, unjust war, incarcerations, suicide, and drug use....and war on labor.....with it's UNIQUE BRAND of toxic capitalism.....under the guise of this "false economic freedom"...

......Perspective....with maturity..is what we need to seek by God's Grace.

When we were children....(spiritually speaking....being in Christ...therefore being Israel through Him).....we had many laws that God in His wisdom gave us because He saw that it was Good.

.....How can we think that we can take away these laws...less regulation......which equals right wing ideology...and come out with a just outcome?

I have been on this forum for 2 months...and NOBODY has been able to answer this....maybe you might try.....?

...democracy and small government...is only worshipped in America...not the Bible...and world history

When I read right wingers writing...and your writing.....I see that you acknowledge the sin....but you cannot connect the dots...that make it obvious to many that BECAUSE OF GREED AND SIN....more regulation and laws...therefore...more liberal government...in the true sense of the meaning...liberal.

Joseph's position In Egypt that the Lord God gave him....was a DICTATOR......yet God's will was done and part of Scripture's Blessed Canon....any questions?

....so when I hear all this exuberant exaltation..of a man made "ISM".......I can destroy it with my axe in 3 or 4 blows........

Jack Hectorman wrote: "It is the job of the Christian Church to gradually and
incrementally over the coming decades, centuries, and millenniums to make
America a better nation state."

when Jesus saw a tree was bearing no fruit....He did not bless it.....Axe to the roots of this evil,divided, Plutocracy!

....The first step in making America a better place.....is for people to .
1) Repent....(greek)...Re-think the esteeming of America better than it really is.....Romans 12:3
2) stop worshipping it more than the Kingdom of God.....Matthew 6:33
3) take a big axe and destroy the lies about America EVER being a God fearing Nation...when Scripture clearly records Israel's devout periods under God fearing Kings...Chronicles....
4)take a big pair of scissors....and seriously get rid of all idols.....staring with our unnecessary and practically non-workable Congress ...democracy, usury, and re-regulate capitalism and labor to 1964 standards...and re-negotiate the true meaning of fair and reasonable labor compensation....
5) Establishing a Non-Partisan....Board of Directors...in lieu of Congress to actually get things done

...Remember when Israel repented ...how things turned around for them...

....Now...do I think thisEver Happen .?..even though I believe with God it would be a great choice...

Jack...I am not here to throw a wet blanket on your enthusiasm...keep it for the Lord....but just remember His words..and His apostles' words

Matt. 24:12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.

Peace be unto you.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

JackHectorman wrote:My statement is true. "It is the job of the Christian Church to gradually and incrementally over the coming decades, centuries, and millenniums to make America a better nation state."__Jack H.

Can it, Jack. Your eschatology has derailed into a mystical mess.

FL, no mystical mess whatsoever, not even slightly. I stated up-thread clearly that I was a traditional totally orthodox Bible believing Postmillennialist in the traditions of some of the best and most orthodox theologians that the Christian Church has produced. Strong solid Bible believers and Postmillennialists like:

Jonathan Edwards, Charles Hodge, A.A. Hodge, James Henley Thornwell, Benjamin B. Warfield, David Brown, Roderick Campbell, Erroll Hulse , W.G.T. Shedd, Augustus H. Strong Marcellus J. Kik, James H. Snowden, R.C. Sproul, Kenneth R. Gentry, Lorraine Boettner, and Keith Mathison.

There are 4 orthodox mainstream views of Christian eschatology:
(1) Postmillennialism
(2) Amillennialism
(3) Dispensationalism
(4) Premillennialism

(Though sometimes you see Premillennialism-Dispensationalism linked together because they are so similar. (As I recall up-thread you self id'd as a Premil-Disp.)

The point I am making is that we Christians in the 4 different camps are not enemies. We are Christian brothers who simply disagree on what the future holds for the Christian Church .. /grin .. my own mother was a Premil-Disp ... I have many Christian friends who are Premil-Disp. All of us believe the Bible is the word of God, we just disagree on eschatology. (Btw, I am not a "pushy Postmillennialist" either. That means I don't go out of my way to push it on people.)

I get the distinct impression that you are a spiritual cousin of YEC Integrists or KJV Onlyists or British Israelists...

No I have nothing to do with any of that. Nothing as in zero. I am as simple and as orthodox as a man can get. I am a Bible believing Reformed Presbyterian. The Reformed part means that I stand with the theologians of the Protestant Reformation, theologians like John Calvin and Martin Luther.

Here is my Postmillennialism:
What is Postmillennialism ?
"Postmillennialism is the view that Christ will return to the earth after the Spirit-blessed Gospel has had overwhelming success in bringing the world to the adoption of Christianity."__ Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr.

That's it. Period. Just plain simple gospel preaching and nothing more than that. And even the plain simple gospel preaching is successful directly due to the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit in the human heart to first regenerate [you must ne born again] the sinner, followed by John 3:16, and all that followed by the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit in the heart and mind of the now regenerated Christian who is trusting Christ as his Savior. That's it. That's how the gospel advances in the world. Period.

Since your belief that the Church must work ''to make America a better nation state'' isn't a salvation issue, I don't mind. You can't harm yourself or anyone with this belief, so continue following your idea.
FL

You are right, it is totally harmless. It is also very comforting because its a joy and blessing to know that the Lord Christ's Great Commission will succeed through simple gospel preaching as the ages move along and even that through His power and the power of the Holy Spirit. Our part is to preach it .. and pray. The Sovereign God does the rest.

My belief is that the material blessings [ ie. making things better] is nothing more than a by-product of the gospel message and a by-product of the successful carrying out of the Lord Christ's Great Commission.

Also, I do NOT say that all Christians will end up with a lot of material blessings, I am not a believer in what some call "the prosperity gospel" as seen on some late night "Christian"(?) television programs. I don't know if you are familiar with that stuff or not, but its essentially the false claim that "God wants you to be rich" so send in your tithes to my TV program and God will make you rich. I have nothing to do with stuff like that.

Cheers.

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PS

FL, I was surfing this excellent Evidence For God Forum awhile back and I was almost sure that I came across a comment of yours in an old thread where you said you liked Anna Netrebko. I could be wrong about that. I may have you confused with somebody else on this site? But if I am right and have the right person, that means we have something in common. I love Anna Netrebko's singing, and I have several of her DVD's in my collection and my wife and I often view her singing and her operas in the evening when we retire to the Living Room. Just last night we watched Anna Netrebko sing La Boheme .. the entire opera. It was probably our 10th time going through it. Really good!

This is one of my favorite arias. Its the beautiful Russian soprano Anna Netrebko and the Mexican tenor Rolando Villazon singing O Soave Fanciulla from Puccini's La Boheme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK-hJsfNBI0

Here is that same aria again, this time they sing it in the opera the wife and I watched last night:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_4YKzBtbpc

I am also a huge Andrea Bocelli fan ... Sarah Brightman too ... and Pavarotti ... and Angela Gheorghiu .. and Josh Groban ... [ and Mozart & Beethovan] .. a few nights ago the wife and I viewed all of Beethovan's 9th Symphony .. I have it on DVD .. Strong emotion! Exhilarating! Magnificent!

.. lol .. I didn't mean to rattle on so long .. I got carried away.

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jcgood wrote: .. Jack...you are trying to ignore the relationship of America's God forsaken culture.....it's divorces, crime, murders, unjust war, incarcerations, suicide, and drug use....and war on labor.....with it's UNIQUE BRAND of toxic capitalism ...

JC, I don't ignore it. America [and the entire West ..for that matter the entire world] has huge secular unbelieving non-Christian swaths of their populations that are saturated with sins. The Sin Principle has this group in its iron grip. I am pretty sure that you and I would agree that the one and only cure/solution for the above is John 3:3, then John 3:16, then Gal.5:22-23. What other possible cure-solution could there be? Answer: None!

The difference in you and I is that you appear to heavily emphasize the evil/sin in the world as being to strong and powerful to be conquered and overcome by the gospel, while I heavily emphasize the gospel as being fully strong and powerful enough to conquer and overcome the sin-evil, and moreover I hold that the gospel WILL DO EXACTLY THAT slowly and ever so gradually and incrementally over the coming decades, centuries, and millenniums.

I can point to MANY Biblical texts AND I can point to the progress ALREADY made in the world. Think about it: the Lord Christ started off in the 1st century with only a few dozen Christians, today a mere [historically speaking] 2000 years later the Lord Jesus has over 2,000,000,000 Christian followers worldwide and from all the reports Christianity is growing like wildfire in the underground Christian Church in China, and in Africa, and in South America.

In another vein, just consider the percent ratio of Christians to non-Christians in the world of the 1st century. Now consider the percent ratio of Christians in the 21st c. to non-Christians. Its an enormously LARGER percentage. And its GROWING LARGER by the year. What does that mean? it means our side is gradually winning. Its means the Lord's Great Commission is winning. If we keep increasing the percent ratio of Christians to non-Christians at the same growth rate we have been at for the last 2000 years, we will eventually Christianize the world or the same thing put another way we will "make disciples of all the nations" as the Lord Jesus commanded us His Christian Church to do.

In another vein, and in view of the fact that we Christians ought NOT to build our doctrine on the Nightly News, consider this quote from a good Bible believing man:

Regarding postmillennialism: "Who would be optimistic enough to write such a book at the end of the twentieth century ? How could anyone actually believe in Postmillennialism, especially in light of two world wars, the Holocaust, the atomic bomb, and ethnic cleansing ? Just look around you ! How can you read today's newspaper and say that the gospel is going to prevail ? My response to questions like this is, how can you read the Bible and say that the gospel is not going to prevail ? Since when did the newspaper become our authority for doctrine ?" __Keith A. Mathison, Postmillennialism: An Eschatology Of Hope

Jack...I am not here to throw a wet blanket on your enthusiasm...keep it for the Lord....but just remember His words..and His apostles' words ..
Peace be unto you.

Peace to you too.

/Big Grin .. And yeah we got to stay enthusiastic and full of faith and hope in the Lord and in His power and in His word. We are going to win this thing. The Lord Christ is not a loser. See 1 Cor. 15: 24-25

"The most serious error in much of the current "prophetic" teaching today is the claim that the future of Christendom is to be read not in terms of Revival and Victory, but of growing impotence and apostasy." __ Oswald T. Allis

Here is just one small little encouraging point in just one corner of the world here in the 21st century: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s_4rM7y ... V5&index=2

JC, maybe you will decide some day to at least take a peek at what the optimistic side of the Christian Church is publishing. It will not hurt you to at least take a look at it.
If you ever get tired of Gloom and Doom, read over Kenneth L. Gentry's He Shall Have Dominion: A Postmillennial Eschatology. Its 545 pages of positive constructive Biblical arguments that support the ultimate victory of Christ's Great Commission. Gentry is as orthodox as they come .. quotes 2 Tim. 3:16-17 constantly.

/Grin .. If you don't like the book, and are not convinced by Gentry's arguments, you can always go back to your gloomy outlook on the world.

Cheers.

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JackHectorman wrote: FL, no mystical mess whatsoever, not even slightly. I stated up-thread clearly that I was a traditional totally orthodox Bible believing Postmillennialist in the traditions of some of the best and most orthodox theologians that the Christian Church has produced. Strong solid Bible believers and Postmillennialists like:Jonathan Edwards, Charles Hodge, A.A. Hodge, James Henley Thornwell, Benjamin B. Warfield, David Brown, Roderick Campbell, Erroll Hulse , W.G.T. Shedd, Augustus H. Strong Marcellus J. Kik, James H. Snowden, R.C. Sproul, Kenneth R. Gentry, Lorraine Boettner, and Keith Mathison.

Cut it out! I don't care about your honor roll of Postmillenialists! I could print out an honor roll of eminent Premil-Dispies as well. It would be just as meaningless as your list. Learn to stand on your own without leaning on the Field Marshalls, pleeeeese!

I know what Postmillenialism is. I don't care for it. I interpret the Bible using the normal, literal, gramtico-historical method. The Bible says what it says and I accept the plain meaning of the text, making allowances for hyperbole, metaphor - whatever - when the context calls for it. I don't look for secret meaning, hidden messages. The Bible doesn't need to be stuffed with our ideas about what it may mean because it's meaning is clear enough for any Spirit-filled believer to understand.

Now...do not answer me again on this matter! I've said what I had to say.

FL

JackHectorman wrote:FL, I was surfing this excellent Evidence For God Forum awhile back and I was almost sure that I came across a comment of yours in an old thread where you said you liked Anna Netrebko. I could be wrong about that. I may have you confused with somebody else on this site? But if I am right and have the right person, that means we have something in common. I love Anna Netrebko's singing, and I have several of her DVD's in my collection and my wife and I often view her singing and her operas in the evening when we retire to the Living Room. Just last night we watched Anna Netrebko sing La Boheme .. the entire opera. It was probably our 10th time going through it. Really good!

You didn't confuse me with anybody else. That would be impossible because I am the resident gentleman & scholar on this site. You like Anna Netrebko too?!

FL

Whatever one's "brand" of eschatological construction they view as correct, it's merely an unknowable assumption. Why? Because ALL eschatological views turn on various theological uncertainties and assumptions over key things that can't presently be known, so they are ALL necessarily speculative: http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible ... iscussion/ (very informative from conservative Christian and Bible Scholar who is also an expert in the original languages and ancient cultures of the Bible. Dr. Heiser is known for bringing a scholar's insights to cutting through the various denominational and theological traditions so as to reveal what the original texts in their original languages and contexts actually say.) ANYONE certain of their own favorite "End Times" scenario should read through this link!

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Cut it out! I don't care about your honor roll of Postmillenialists!

.. lol .. That's rather rude. I gave you no reason to be rude. I was not rude to you.

I could print out an honor roll of eminent Premil-Dispies as well.

If you did that, I would NOT say to you, "Cut it out! I don't care about your honor roll of Premillennialists!" ...

.. also your list might be helpful to others who might come along and read your list and perhaps google some of them and become interested in eschatology and they might go on to read and study and learn about it.

It would be just as meaningless as your list.

That's an uncalled for unfriendly remark. I was not unfriendly to you. Why would you refer to a list of people that you know means a lot to me, as "meaningless"? They were Christian Bible scholars who hold a very high view of the Holy Bible, and they are not meaningless. not to me. They have helped me a lot, and my wife and my children and even some of my older grandchildren.

Learn to stand on your own without leaning on the Field Marshalls, pleeeeese!

More unfriendly remarks. Also I stood on my feet pretty well with many points I made that went totally unanswered and ignored. Of course, no one had to answer them. I put them out there as a possible help to some who might come along and find them to be a blessing. For example, Warfield and Hodge and Boettner and some of the others are Christian scholars well worth getting to know and any Christian could be helped by reading their works. Warfield, for example, wrote a massive defense of Holy Scripture titled The Inspiration And Authority Of Scripture.

I know what Postmillenialism is. I don't care for it.

Another cold and unfriendly remark. It has that cold abrupt tone. Unfriendly.

I interpret the Bible using the normal, literal, gramtico-historical method. The Bible says what it says and I accept the plain meaning of the text, making allowances for hyperbole, metaphor - whatever - when the context calls for it.

So do I. For example my interpretation of those passages I listed in this thread was interpreted like that.

I don't look for secret meaning, hidden messages.

I don't either.

The Bible doesn't need to be stuffed with our ideas about what it may mean because it's meaning is clear enough for any Spirit-filled believer to understand.

Another rude remark. Another unfriendly remark. I don't stuff the Bible with my ideas as your statement implies.

Now...do not answer me again on this matter! I've said what I had to say. (emphasis by Jack)

Another rude remark. Very rude.

I assume that I made some points that Furstentum Liechtenstein personally does not like and does not agree with, therefore Furstentum Liechtenstein decided use abrupt and rude tones.

FL

I have not posted an unkind word to anyone since I have been here. I have not posted a single idea or notion that was not mainstream Christianity. I have posted nothing strange or bizarre. I have talked about cheerful, uplifting Bible verses and John 3:3 and John 3:16 and Gal. 5:22-23 and the Great Commission. Yet you decided to be rude and unfriendly in your responses ... I guess just because you personally do not agree with the position I presented.

If you had presented huge amounts of texts that supported Premillennialism, I would not have been rude or abrupt with you merely because I do not agree with your Christian PreMIll eschatological position.

When Christians do not agree on issues, they can just agree to disagree. We do not have to be rude to each other over theological and eschatological points that have no bearing on the core message of Christianity, which is the Person and Salvation-Work of the Lord Jesus and other Christian doctrines that bear upon salvation, and other vital and important Christian doctrines like the Virgin Birth, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, and the Doctrine of the Inspiration and Authority of the Holy Scriptures.

Cheers.

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And God Bless ..


`

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

JackHectorman wrote:FL, I was surfing this excellent Evidence For God Forum awhile back and I was almost sure that I came across a comment of yours in an old thread where you said you liked Anna Netrebko. I could be wrong about that. I may have you confused with somebody else on this site? But if I am right and have the right person, that means we have something in common. I love Anna Netrebko's singing, and I have several of her DVD's in my collection and my wife and I often view her singing and her operas in the evening when we retire to the Living Room. Just last night we watched Anna Netrebko sing La Boheme .. the entire opera. It was probably our 10th time going through it. Really good!

You didn't confuse me with anybody else. That would be impossible because I am the resident gentleman & scholar on this site. You like Anna Netrebko too?! (emphasis by Jack)

FL

Yes I do. I love Anna Netrebko. The wife and I just finished watching her sing some arias from the DVD titled The Opera Gala. Magnificent!

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Jack wrote:

JC, maybe you will decide some day to at least take a peek at what the optimistic side of the Christian Church is publishing. It will not hurt you to at least take a look at it.
If you ever get tired of Gloom and Doom, read over Kenneth L. Gentry's He Shall Have Dominion: A Postmillennial Eschatology. Its 545 pages of positive constructive Biblical arguments that support the ultimate victory of Christ's Great Commission. Gentry is as orthodox as they come .. quotes 2 Tim. 3:16-17 constantly.

Thank you ..Jack.....I really do like your enthusiasm...but slow down a little...because ....I do not equate gloom and doom with the end times...

in light of....1 John 2: 8...On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.

I am thrilled...Jesus said that it is an honor to be persecuted for His name..and the reward would be Great......and His reward is with Him...at His coming....

I am still working on my study of eschatology....but you must have a different understanding of Luke 17:26-29...than I do....

I really don't want to discuss that now...as I am not equipped in my understanding of your eschatology.....and also...I don't want the thread to turn away from

my focus of opposing the exuberant exaltation of nationalism...democracy....capitalism....or any other "ISM"....that causes division in the body of Christ.

I picked a topic that I thought most could agree is out of bounds in the world and the U.S....ie....usury...but I have never heard it addressed on "Christian Media"...

...The Holy Spirit...produces joy and peace..etc....in me......Jesus' prophecies comfort me....everyday is one day closer to His return....

....Remember...the Lord is our still Our Teacher...through the ministry of the Holy Spirit.....It is He who will witness to my Spirit...what I need to
know about the Truth...and the end times.....

I pray every day...for the Whole Body Of Christ.....That we may Know Him...and The Power Of His Resurrection....

....It's not that I believe that sin and the devil are too much for the Lord to destroy....It's that Jesus said....13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few....Matt. 7:13,14.....

Thank you brother.....this might just be the time for me to get firmer on my eschatology...
Peace from the Lord Jesus Christ....

jcgood wrote:Thank you ..Jack....

My pleasure JC

I really do like your enthusiasm...

Thank you. I'm glad you do.

but slow down a little...

/grin .. Okay

because ....I do not equate gloom and doom with the end times...

PreMill and Dispen. and Amill are not necessarily goom & doom for the individual, but they
are pretty gloomy and doomy for the Lord Christ's Great Commission, because all three of
those eschatological positions have the Christian Church failing to carry out the Lord's
Great Commission here on earth before He returns.

in light of....1 John 2: 8...On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.

Beautiful. Magnificent.

I am thrilled...Jesus said that it is an honor to be persecuted for His name..and the reward would be Great......and His reward is with Him...at His coming....

The unbelievers are certainly persecuting Christians in many spots around the world. Burning our churches. Killing us. Sometimes driving us out of their countries.

I am still working on my study of eschatology....

I understand. I think most Christians today are also doing that.

but you must have a different understanding of Luke 17:26-29...than I do....

I do. Postmills have a different understanding of eschatological texts than do our PreMill and Amill Christian brothers.

I really don't want to discuss that now...

I understand perfectly.

as I am not equipped in my understanding of your eschatology.....

I understand that too. This is an area that does NOT interest a lot of very good Christians, and they just have never gotten around to taking a position on it. I have been studying and reading about this subject for decades, and am settled on the PostMill position.

and also...I don't want the thread to turn

I understand again. You're exactly right, the discussion should stay on your Opening Post.

away from my focus of opposing the exuberant exaltation of nationalism...democracy....capitalism....

Just for the record I also oppose those 3 as defined and practiced by the secular humanists and the atheists and agnostics
and all non-Christians. On the other hand I appreciate all 3 of them when they are given a Christian interpretation and
a Christian application to present realities in America and in the world.

Here are merely one or two examples of a what I mean by that:

* nationalism - I love America for many reasons, one reason is that America is home to tens of millions of God's people.
You hear different figures, but I read that some 86% of Americans self-identify as Christians. The American political system
basically and generally protects the Christian Church in America.

* democracy - It should not be made into a god, but its the best political system anyone has devised thus far, and it
does permit the constant preaching of the gospel and the constant building of Christian Churches in America and the constant
forming and launching of new Christian projects through out America.

* capitalism - same idea. The Christian Church has the Freedom and the Funding to carry out the Lord Christ's Great Commission
because of the American democratic-capitalistic political and economic system. And we are actually in the process of doing that, not
just here, but all over the world. Worldwide instant media on a wide variety of devices .. the Internet .. even cell phones .. are being
used to spread the gospel and other Bible truths all over the world every single day.

or any other "ISM"....that causes division in the body of Christ.

I hear ya. My view is that we Christians can love each other [in the New Testament meaning of that word] even though we disagree on
many things. I do draw the line on that though. I will NOT fellowship with heretics. I doubt you will either. I mean I do NOT accept (say)
the non-Trinitarians as my true Christian brothers. Where they finally end up will be decided by the Sovereign God, but I do not accept
non-Trinitarians as my Christian brothers.

I picked a topic that I thought most could agree is out of bounds in the world and the U.S....ie....usury...but I have never heard it addressed on "Christian Media"...

I understand. Maybe you can get some more discussion on it here in this thread.

...The Holy Spirit...produces joy and peace..etc....in me......Jesus' prophecies comfort me....everyday is one day closer to His return....

I understand how you look at it. My mother was a PreMill ... /smile

....Remember...the Lord is our still Our Teacher...through the ministry of the Holy Spirit.....It is He who will witness to my Spirit...what I need to
know about the Truth...and the end times.....

So true, but again it will not hurt you to browse through the arguments being published by the optimistic side of the 21st c. Christian Church.
For example:
Postmillennialism: An Eschatology Of Hope
by Keith A. Mathison
287 pages, P & R Publishing, Phillipsburg, New Jersey (amazon.com has it too)
Mathison makes it crystal clear what PostMill is NOT:

"Postmillennialism is not liberalism
Postmillennialism is not the social gospel
Postmillennialism is not universalism
Postmillennialism is not perfectionism
Postmillennialism is not nationalism"

"In this enlightening work, Keith A. Mathison sets forth a wealth of biblical, historical, and theological evidence for an optimistic eschatology. Unlike end-time forecasts that see modest growth in the church before Christ's return, postmillennialism expects the Spirit-blessed gospel to have overwhelming success in bringing the world to Christ. Mathison explains why, and he calls us to renewed faith and expectation as we serve the reigning King of Kings."__ From the blurbs

"Keith Mathison provides the church an apologetic for 'an eschatology of hope' that is thoroughly biblical, soundly evangelical, impressively thorough, logically structured, and easily understandable. The Christian community should gladly welcome this sane and hope-filled exposition." __Kenneth L. Gentry

Another excellent work on this subject is Lorraine Boettner's The Millennium


However the latest big granddaddy work is the 500 + page massive He Shall Have Dominion by Kenneth L. Gentry.


There are many PreMill-Disp writers out there too. George E. Ladd, Louis Sperry Chafer, Charles L. Feinberg,
Jessie F. Silver, G. Campbell Morgan, etc, so you can get the opposing viewpoints.

I pray every day...for the Whole Body Of Christ.....That we may Know Him...and The Power Of His Resurrection....

Amen.

Thank you brother....

You're welcome.

.this might just be the time for me to get firmer on my eschatology...

It might be. I will share my view on something with you. I believe a man can best settle his views on Christian eschatology
in the privacy of his own study, where he reads the books of his choice at his own private pace, and makes up his own mind
about what he believes. Its a project that will likely take decades.

Peace from the Lord Jesus Christ....

Same to you, JC.

Cheers.

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JackHectorman wrote:I assume that I made some points that Furstentum Liechtenstein personally does not like and does not agree with, therefore Furstentum Liechtenstein decided use abrupt and rude tones.

I'm not rude. I'm French Canadian. All your assumptions about me are incorrect. Nothing you have said has insulted me. I am un-insultable. Go ahead...try!

I like you as you are. I even like jcgood.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:I'm not rude. I'm French Canadian.

/Big Grin ... And a French Canadian with a delightful and interesting screen name too ... Furstentum Liechtenstein. I really like that!

All your assumptions about me are incorrect.

/another Big Grin .. Okay then, I stand corrected.

Nothing you have said has insulted me.

I'm glad to hear that because the last thing I'd want to do, would be to insult any human being that likes Anna Netrebko .. /smile
(btw, one of the most beautiful and delightful creatures on the planet ... she has a natural simplicity .. she is just herself ... never
puts on airs ... has no guile ... she does not take herself to seriously ... would most likely be a fun person to get to know and to
be around ... has a voice and personality off the charts ... has the most beautiful set of teeth I've ever seen ... can sing any aria
that is out there ... can do difficult pieces and evidently works very hard ... and is a world class opera singer on top of all that.")

I love this one, my wife and I watch this at least once a month.
I have it on DVD, the title of which is the The Berlin Concert.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rigFkhoqZmo
Its Anna Netrebko, Placido Domingo, and Rolando Villazon
singing Dein ist mein ganzes herz (Yours Is My Heart Alone")
Its an aria from some opera of long ago, as I recall.

This is really a fun moment for all three of them, yet the
singing is outstanding, and Anna can more than hold her own
with both these world class male opera singers. (The audience
loved this and went along with it and thoroughly enjoyed it.)

I am un-insultable. Go ahead...try!

.. lol .. I never insult French Canadians.

I like you as you are.

I'm glad to hear that. I like you too. Maybe we can form a mutual admiration society .. lol .. ( just kidding about the admiration society)

I even like jcgood.

That's good to hear. I think JC, like all of us, needs some friends

FL

FL:

I even like jcgood.

....thanks for the belly laugh...
...I'm just looking for sincere discussion...leading to some understanding of the writer

J'aime les Québécois ....
Ma vie a été sauvée par un homme très gentil et sa femme ... après que j'ai eu un accident de voiture ....
Je rentrais à la maison dans le Vermont de Montréal ... pendant une tempête de neige
Je dérapé dans un fossé à la campagne ..
J'ai été épargné de gelures ... par leur merci
Ils m'ont emmenée dans leur chaleureuse maison
Donc je pourrais appeler pour un remorquage

Il y avait aussi une chaîne de bons samaritains locaux ... que le Seigneur a utilisé pour m'aider
Donc genre .... me conduire ici et là ..... belle province ... est approprié...

....I don't speak French...but this is from google translate

....Jack....
Thanks Jack for offering your sincerity....it is rather rare...and I appreciate it.

I too....love the American people...I am a Christian....period....
....and I like that law which commands autos to stop for pedestrians....I like my government-run health care...and Social Security...Our version of English...

But...I strongly dislike... the 21st century Sodom culture of America...its arrogance...its inapt Constitution...it's Plutocracy...lack of small cars and bullet-trains...and lack of affordable walkable villages...its perpetuation of declaring the myth of three equal branches of gov't.....and all the confused people wondering why everyone is blaming the so called...."President"...for everything...its superiority complex...and its denial of its own self-destruction....evidenced by its worship of its false image and its divided, gridlocked electorate..that gets its info......spun for them...via sound bytes on Fox...

Democracy...is not what I find in..Scripture, Families, and Business.....why?
....Because although God created all men equal....and shows no partiality.....All men are not equipped equally...in the wisdom dept.
....only mature Non Partisan Christian = equipped to vote...in my world view.

...That's why the Israelites were ruled by Dictators,Kings.....and lawless people were punished...not given the power to elect people that swear to defend...
the most ridiculous, unworkable, and practically unchangeable canon....the U.S. Constitution...that created fifty different confused divided states...


The reason for the mess and all the complaining about injustice....is because of Democracy....A godly, wise person who cares...has the same vote as one who is just the opposite.....ungodly...unwise...unjust...
...and the whole game is rigged by money, low information voters and low turnouts...and people who vote just for the lowest taxes.....under the guise of "small government".

Actually, we in the USA live under a republic - not a democracy... Big difference.

Bascially, after reading and putting up with jcgood's attacks on anyone who disgrees with him. Be forewarned, my comments to follow will be sharp and cynical...

Here goes...

It is clear the jc'good's god is Government and progressive, marxist Government at that, and not in YHWH at all. Don't be fooled by his hyperbole.

Recall, Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers, and from there faced continued setbacks, until Joseph was refined for the task God assigned him. Joseph, saved two nations. One large and one very small one. It wasn't communism he was following nor the policies of progressive liberal socialism either. He was following God's instructions in order for people to survive a severe seven year famine. Drastic measures were taken for pure survival mode. After the famine ended and the years and decades passed, the Israelites were made into slaves by the governing authority by the central planning whims of the Pharaohs. The Egyptian people did not fair well under monarchical central planning of the Pharaohs either. They could be killed for dare questioning der leader... or tossed in prison upon mere whim...taxed heavily and kept dumb, and unarmed...

jcgood desires this same abuse of power and loves it as it is his god and savior. He desires that the USA be pushed into a man made famine and social unrest so that central planners control all and all the USA populace is sold into slavery to his god - government. He demonstrates no concept of corrupt human sin nature and how absolute government power corrupts absolutely. Government is his god and savior. The history of humanity has proven that central planning cannot succeed because it creates low information dependents who cannot fend for themselves and are brainwashed that they cannot even even try to better themselves as that is a crime. They live on their weekly ration of vodka and pickles, stand in long ques for food, rely on the black market many things, rarely travel no more than 35 square miles from their walking village, and think, this, the good lo ways... Uncle joe-sam wuvs me - he's me nanny...

Well, that is not the America a the majority of us want. It is what jcgood craves that America be turned into.

I'll say it again as I stated elsewhere on other threads. If you really want to see what progressive liberal socialism is inside the USA, please visit Pine Ridge Reservation or any Reservation and see what big government desires for us all. The breakup of the family, the poverty and hopelessness, and still, many of those ensalved to the govt dole vote for democrats who enslave them to poverty - just to have them vote democrat is a hideous crime of exploitation. It is often best to go off the reservation to a privet hospital than go to one on the Res... So go there and see what the progressives desire to do to all America. Go to the inner cities and see this as well too. Whole voting blocks turned into conservaphobics by the same conservaphobic propaganda jcgood uses, just to win elections. Well, if that one progressive party wins all - no need for those who voted them in - no need to keep them anymore. We know what happened to the Native peoples when the govt deems one as not useful, indolent, a hindrance ...

so I wish jcgood well on his travel to Columbia but I think he should rather move to Cuba or North Korea and live in his ideal god - government... there...

So my apologies in advance to jcgood for writing this but he has asked for it due to all the brain dead leftist occupy propaganda he has posted here and his absolute narrow minded intolerant bigotry he has displayed on this forum which graciously and tolerantly let him post. Good day...
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