The Eternal Sonship of Christ

[Jac3510]

If, as most others here apparently believe, the Son or the 2nd person of the Trinity did not come from the Father in eternity before creation began, then the first and second person of the Trinity would never have been so clearly revealed to us in God's written word as “Father and Son”.

I'll get to the links soon but in the meantime can you please explain what it means that "the son came from the father in eternity before creation began"? How would you describe that? Was there an instance when the son was not and then he was? or what?

The Son, the 2nd person of the Trinity, came from His Father, the 1st person of the Trinity in eternity before creation began. Now, since we are told the Son, the 2nd person, is one with His infinite Father and is the express image of His Father who, as we are also constantly being told, has always existed, then I suppose it can be argued that the Son in one sense has always existed in His Father.

View this how you like but don't alter the meaning of “Father” and “Son” if you care to Honour God's Word.

If the Son or the 2nd person of the Trinity did not come from the Father in eternity before creation began, then the first and second person of the Trinity would never have been so clearly revealed to us in God's written word as “Father” and “Son”.


God has not lied to us and for as long as you or anyone else keep denying the Son came from the Father in eternity before creation began then so will you also keep denying the meaning of the words “Father” and “Son” in the Trinity. You will also then keep denying the Father and Son relationship that produces the bond of perfect love that only a perfect Father and Son can give to each other. ...and indeed to all who they create.

The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.

Only the pure and faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth, simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust.

The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.

All who are given faith in this Spirit will naturally have faith in the Son, all who are of God have faith in this Spirit. Whoever will not have faith in this Spirit will remain a liar.

Would you agree with the following (if not, why not):

- The Son eternally proceeds from the Father
- The Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father (note I left out the Son, in case you lean more Eastern Orthodox)

I actually need to talk to an EO adherent who knows what (s)he's talking about on this subject. Until about two years ago I held to their view on the procession of the Spirit. But then I came across the actual argument for the double procession (namely, that there would be absolutely no way to distinguish Him from the Son without it), and I couldn't see a way out of it.

If we are only looking at the biblical text, I think either view can be defended. But for the life of me, I don't see how the EO view is even reasonable.

Anyway, that's an unnecessary digression. I actually just wanted to say that I really hope OM answers these two questions directly (I'm not holding my breath).

[RickD]

Byblos wrote:
Would you agree with the following (if not, why not):

- The Son eternally proceeds from the Father
- The Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father (note I left out the Son, in case you lean more Eastern Orthodox)

Byblos,

Whether or not oldman directly answers this, I'd like to hear your take on it.

[Byblos]

Byblos wrote:
Would you agree with the following (if not, why not):

- The Son eternally proceeds from the Father
- The Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father (note I left out the Son, in case you lean more Eastern Orthodox)

Byblos,

Whether or not oldman directly answers this, I'd like to hear your take on it.

My take? Yes and yes.

Post edit: I'm a little perplexed as to why you would ask me such a question, though. I would've thought it obvious what my take is.

[RickD]

Byblos wrote:
Would you agree with the following (if not, why not):

- The Son eternally proceeds from the Father
- The Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father (note I left out the Son, in case you lean more Eastern Orthodox)

Byblos,

Whether or not oldman directly answers this, I'd like to hear your take on it.

My take? Yes and yes.

Post edit: I'm a little perplexed as to why you would ask me such a question, though. I would've thought it obvious what my take is.

When I said your "take", I meant explanation. Honestly, I'd never thought/heard of this until it was brought up here.

Since getting a direct answer from oldman is like pulling teeth, I figured you may be able to explain.

[Byblos]

- The Son eternally proceeds from the Father
- The Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father (note I left out the Son, in case you lean more Eastern Orthodox)

Since getting a direct answer from oldman is like pulling teeth, I figured you may be able to explain.

Okay gotcha, no problem. What I can say is that eternal procession establishes the eternal relationship between Father, Son, and HS, insomuchas they are one and the same in nature (hence one God), and distinct in personality (3 persons). Much more is provided on the procession here.

[Seraph]

Doesn't the word "son" necessarily imply that they came from a "father"? If they are two eternally existing persons, how (and when for that matter) did one become a Son to the other? And similar question applies to the Holy Spirit becoming the odd one out of the Father-Son relationship.

If they existed eternally in this relationship, doesn't this seem a bit "less than simple"?

[RickD]

- The Son eternally proceeds from the Father
- The Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father (note I left out the Son, in case you lean more Eastern Orthodox)

Since getting a direct answer from oldman is like pulling teeth, I figured you may be able to explain.

Okay gotcha, no problem. What I can say is that eternal procession establishes the eternal relationship between Father, Son, and HS, insomuchas they are one and the same in nature (hence one God), and distinct in personality (3 persons). Much more is provided on the procession here.

Ok good. Thanks. So what I'm ultimately getting at, is that all oldman's gibberish aside, he may be not too far off with what he's saying in that regard. At least he may have a basis for what he's saying.
Honestly, it's frustrating trying to weed out all the gibberish just to try to get to the heart of what he's really saying.

You know, kinda like the Chinese chicken that has all that doughy crap that you have to taste, in order to get what may be a tiny piece of chicken inside.

[Byblos]

- The Son eternally proceeds from the Father
- The Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father (note I left out the Son, in case you lean more Eastern Orthodox)

Since getting a direct answer from oldman is like pulling teeth, I figured you may be able to explain.

Okay gotcha, no problem. What I can say is that eternal procession establishes the eternal relationship between Father, Son, and HS, insomuchas they are one and the same in nature (hence one God), and distinct in personality (3 persons). Much more is provided on the procession here.

Ok good. Thanks. So what I'm ultimately getting at, is that all oldman's gibberish aside, he may be not too far off with what he's saying in that regard. At least he may have a basis for what he's saying.
Honestly, it's frustrating trying to weed out all the gibberish just to try to get to the heart of what he's really saying.

Precisely Rick. That's why I shied away from any accusatory tones toward him because sifting through all that 'poetic' stuff he writes, I honestly did not see anything contradicting the classical definition of the Trinity. Oldman may not realize or even admit it, but he's a closeted classic trinitarian through and through. Go smoke that one oldman (just kidding, really, please don't take offense to that). But that, of course, is still pending his response on the procession questions I asked. Hopefully he will shed more light on his position with a clear answer.

[Byblos]

Doesn't the word "son" necessarily imply that they came from a "father"? If they are two eternally existing persons, how (and when for that matter) did one become a Son to the other? And similar question applies to the Holy Spirit becoming the odd one out of the Father-Son relationship.

If they existed eternally in this relationship, doesn't this seem a bit "less than simple"?

Nope (read the link). And I presume you meant "more than simple", right? I mean you can't get any simpler than simple.

[oldman]

If, as most others here apparently believe, the Son or the 2nd person of the Trinity did not come from the Father in eternity before creation began, then the first and second person of the Trinity would never have been so clearly revealed to us in God's written word as “Father and Son”.

I'll get to the links soon but in the meantime can you please explain what it means that "the son came from the father in eternity before creation began"? How would you describe that? Was there an instance when the son was not and then he was? or what?

The Son, the 2nd person of the Trinity, came from His Father, the 1st person of the Trinity in eternity before creation began. Now, since we are told the Son, the 2nd person, is one with His infinite Father and is the express image of His Father who, as we are also constantly being told, has always existed, then I suppose it can be argued that the Son in one sense has always existed in His Father.

View this how you like but don't alter the meaning of “Father” and “Son” if you care to Honour God's Word.

If the Son or the 2nd person of the Trinity did not come from the Father in eternity before creation began, then the first and second person of the Trinity would never have been so clearly revealed to us in God's written word as “Father” and “Son”.


God has not lied to us and for as long as you or anyone else keep denying the Son came from the Father in eternity before creation began then so will you also keep denying the meaning of the words “Father” and “Son” in the Trinity. You will also then keep denying the Father and Son relationship that produces the bond of perfect love that only a perfect Father and Son can give to each other. ...and indeed to all who they create.

The highest form of love is never self-centered but is a love that gives and sacrifices for the sake of others and remains faithful to love unto death. Only this love can be trusted to speak the truth, for only this love will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us. Such is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit, revealed to us in full through the finished work of the Father's Son.

Through the Father and His Son comes their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. This Spirit of free and pure eternal love naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. This Spirit, this God, will live and rule only in those of us who will value Him above all others.

Only the pure and faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, the only true and faithful Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth, simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which we all can trust.

The Son of God has revealed to us the essence and character of the Spirit of truth and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion: We shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake: “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.

All who are given faith in this Spirit will naturally have faith in the Son, all who are of God have faith in this Spirit. Whoever will not have faith in this Spirit will remain a liar.

Would you agree with the following (if not, why not):

- The Son eternally proceeds from the Father

I have no problem believing the Son would have been eternally in, and proceeding from, the Father before creation began, but I also believe that in eternity before creation began, the Son must have come into existence as another free thinking mind otherwise the meaning of “Father” and “Son” would need to be altered.

In the beginning was the Word” (The Son existed only in the eternal thoughts of God the Father.), “and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (This Word of the Father became a facsimile of the Father, not a creation as such but another part of the Father. This new mind became another person like the Father: The Father's Son.) “He was with God in the beginning. All things were made through Him,” (through the Father and the Son's pure and perfect love for each other they began creating everything whilst showing and giving that love to all who they created.) “without him nothing was made that has been made.” John 1:1-3.

To deny the Son came from the Father before creation began we would first need to deny the meaning of “Father” and “Son”.

If or when we can agree on this then we can move on to the meaning of, and the proceeding of, the Spirit of truth...

- The Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father (note I left out the Son, in case you lean more Eastern Orthodox)

Don't worry, I am no more Eastern Orthodox than I am Rastafarian or Roman Catholic.

[Byblos]

Would you agree with the following (if not, why not):

- The Son eternally proceeds from the Father

I have no problem believing the Son would have been eternally in, and proceeding from, the Father before creation began, but I also believe that in eternity before creation began, the Son must have come into existence as another free thinking mind otherwise the meaning of “Father” and “Son” would need to be altered.

Back to a confusing, thick cloud of green smoke.

Oldman, do you really not see the hopelessness of your contradictions? I highlighted them for you above so you can more easily spot them. An eternal being came into existence (twice, might I add). Utter incoherence.

To deny the Son came from the Father before creation began we would first need to deny the meaning of “Father” and “Son”.

If or when we can agree on this then we can move on to the meaning of, and the proceeding of, the Spirit of truth...

As you present it we can no more agree on this than we can agree on the coherence of a 4-sided triangle.

- The Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father (note I left out the Son, in case you lean more Eastern Orthodox)

Don't worry, I am no more Eastern Orthodox than I am Rastafarian or Roman Catholic.

Don't worry, I would never accuse you of stooping so low. I only reserve that for myself.

[SeekingSanctuary]

Oldman, let me try to describe what I *THINK* your beliefs are. Where I'm wrong, please correct me:

"The Son existed as a part of the Father, either as a piece or of the same substance, until He became a separate being."

Is this even close to accurate?

[oldman]

Would you agree with the following (if not, why not):

- The Son eternally proceeds from the Father

I have no problem believing the Son would have been eternally in, and proceeding from, the Father before creation began, but I also believe that in eternity before creation began, the Son must have come into existence as another free thinking mind otherwise the meaning of “Father” and “Son” would need to be altered.

Back to a confusing, thick cloud of green smoke.

Oldman, do you really not see the hopelessness of your contradictions? I highlighted them for you above so you can more easily spot them. An eternal being came into existence (twice, might I add). Utter incoherence.

Hold on a minute Byblos, If the Son first existed as a 'spiritual embryo' in His Father's eternal thoughts, would not the Son have existed for as long as His Father?

If the answer is yes, there is no contradiction, is there?


In the beginning was the Word” (The Son existed only in the eternal thoughts of God the Father.), “and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (This Word of the Father became a facsimile of the Father, not a creation as such but another part of the Father. This new mind became another person like the Father: The Father's Son.) “He was with God in the beginning. All things were made through Him,” (through the Father and the Son's pure and perfect love for each other they began creating everything whilst showing and giving that love to all who they created.) “without him nothing was made that has been made.” John 1:1-3.


To deny the Son came from the Father before creation began we would first need to deny the meaning of “Father” and “Son”.

[RickD]

oldman wrote:
I have no problem believing the Son would have been eternally in, and proceeding from, the Father before creation began, but I also believe that in eternity before creation began, the Son must have come into existence as another free thinking mind otherwise the meaning of “Father” and “Son” would need to be altered.

Oldman,

Whether you notice or not, with your own words, you have just denied that Christ is God. As Byblos pointed out, someone who came into existence, cannot be God.

So,
You are preaching a different christ. And while we haven't gotten into your beliefs about the Holy Spirit, why shouldn't anyone believe you're talking about a false Holy Spirit as well?

[Byblos]

Hold on a minute Byblos, If the Son first existed as a 'spiritual embryo' in His Father's eternal thoughts, would not the Son have existed for as long as His Father?

If the answer is yes, there is no contradiction, is there?

What does it even mean that the Son was a spiritual embryo in the Father's eternal thoughts? At a minimum, it implies that God can grow in his own knowledge. Besides, the OT flatly contradicts you because God's Word was extremely active during that period, not just a mere embryonic thought. Besides still, I hold to divine simplicity which means God is indivisible in any way, has no parts, thoughts or otherwise. But even if I were to grant you that idea (and I don't), there most certainly remains a contradiction because you are simply paying lip service to the Word's eternality by repeatedly stating that it came into being (see highlights in my previous post).

To deny the Son came from the Father before creation began we would first need to deny the meaning of “Father” and “Son”.

We do not deny the Son proceeds from the Father so your statement sets up a straw man. What we deny is that the Son came into existence spiritually, and a second time physically. Your position is nothing but self-contradictions oldman, I'd reconsider it if I were you.