Evidence for God from Science

First off, welcome to the board Melanie.


You wrote:

When Jesus walked on this earth, it was not even proof through his miracles that lead people to him, it was the Holy Spirit that dwelt within them that led to their eye's being opened and seeing Jesus for who he truly is.

Are you saying that people other than born-again believers, have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them?

Thanks for the welcome RickD
Firstly I would never presume to know Our Father's wisdom and I am in no position to ever speculate who indeed is ''born again'' as we can immerse ourselves in water but if our heart has not been washed with the Holy Spirit then it is in vain, it is only Our Father who knows what truly lies within the heart.
Those who inherit the Kingdom of Heaven have been written in The Book Of Life before the foundations of the world were laid, so if in Jesus time there were people who had not been previously ''born again'' but they heard the wisdom of Jesus and the Holy Spirit manifested within them to heed his words, recognise his authority and praise him as the messiah, then in all essence of the word they were ''born again''. The Holy Spirit does not manifest itself in non-beleivers but as soon as one opens their heart to Our Father, the Holy Spirit begins to work within them. A non-believer would never truly accept Jesus as their saviour and King in the first place. What do you think draws a person to be ''born again'' in the first place, they are lead by the Holy Spirit to do so.
I have come across far to many ''christians'' that have been ''born again'' that have no light of Christ in them. The same argument can be used in the reverse just because someone claims to be ''born again'' does not mean that the Holy Spirit resides inside them. Our Father knows all, see's all and looks beyond what we could ever possibly see or know.

melanie wrote:Thanks for the welcome RickD
Firstly I would never presume to know Our Father's wisdom and I am in no position to ever speculate who indeed is ''born again'' as we can immerse ourselves in water but if our heart has not been washed with the Holy Spirit then it is in vain, it is only Our Father who knows what truly lies within the heart.
Those who inherit the Kingdom of Heaven have been written in The Book Of Life before the foundations of the world were laid, so if in Jesus time there were people who had not been previously ''born again'' but they heard the wisdom of Jesus and the Holy Spirit manifested within them to heed his words, recognise his authority and praise him as the messiah, then in all essence of the word they were ''born again''. The Holy Spirit does not manifest itself in non-beleivers but as soon as one opens their heart to Our Father, the Holy Spirit begins to work within them. A non-believer would never truly accept Jesus as their saviour and King in the first place. What do you think draws a person to be ''born again'' in the first place, they are lead by the Holy Spirit to do so.
I have come across far to many ''christians'' that have been ''born again'' that have no light of Christ in them. The same argument can be used in the reverse just because someone claims to be ''born again'' does not mean that the Holy Spirit resides inside them. Our Father knows all, see's all and looks beyond what we could ever possibly see or know.

FYI: The Holy Spirit is a person and not an it...

Are you aware of that?
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FYI: Have you read what the definition of a person is??
Regardless of which dictionary version you use the word person is described as a human or human being, The Holy Spirit is not a human being, in as much as God is

Are you aware of that??
Yes in the bible at times The Holy Spirit is reffered to as He but so are Angels and God but we know that they are not human beings, but spiritual beings.

It is plainly obvious from the way I speak about the Holy Spirit that I am in complete reverence and Humbleness to the greatness and authority that resides within the Holy Spirit.
We can become totally lost in debating words and interpretations for the sake of debate but it really serves no purpose and in doing so the core of the message is completely lost, the Pharisees were a prime example of this. If you want to pick apart words then that is entirely up to you, but I prefer to concern myself with matters of the spirit, with My Father's message.

If you would like to comment with something of the spiritual and with substance that would be great, because isn't that why we are really here, to share together in Christ's message, sometimes healthy debate is beneficial but debate for the mere sake of argument is pointless and it just goes around and around in circles, never moving forward.

melanie wrote:FYI: Have you read what the definition of a person is??
Regardless of which dictionary version you use the word person is described as a human or human being, The Holy Spirit is not a human being, in as much as God is

Are you aware of that??
Yes in the bible at times The Holy Spirit is reffered to as He but so are Angels and God but we know that they are not human beings, but spiritual beings.

It is plainly obvious from the way I speak about the Holy Spirit that I am in complete reverence and Humbleness to the greatness and authority that resides within the Holy Spirit.
We can become totally lost in debating words and interpretations for the sake of debate but it really serves no purpose and in doing so the core of the message is completely lost, the Pharisees were a prime example of this. If you want to pick apart words then that is entirely up to you, but I prefer to concern myself with matters of the spirit, with My Father's message.

If you would like to comment with something of the spiritual and with substance that would be great, because isn't that why we are really here, to share together in Christ's message, sometimes healthy debate is beneficial but debate for the mere sake of argument is pointless and it just goes around and around in circles, never moving forward.

There is how WE define a person NOW and How the developers of the Trinity doctrine defined it then.
That said:
Person:
per·son [pur-suhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
a human being, whether man, woman, or child: The table seats four persons.
2.
a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.
3.
Sociology . an individual human being, especially with reference to his or her social relationships and behavioral patterns as conditioned by the culture.
4.
Philosophy . a self-conscious or rational being.
5.
the actual self or individual personality of a human being: You ought not to generalize, but to consider the person you are dealing with.

As you can see the modern definition revolves around a human being.

In the past though, a "person", was the actual self/individuality ( definition 5 above).
The HS is a person because He has an actual self, just as the Father and the Son do.

Melanie,

Do you believe God is 3 persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the Trinity?

The HS is a fascinating topic.
We need to remember that the HS was the last part of the Trinity doctrine to be formulated.
The HS is interesting because He has the same role as Father and Son, another example of that perfect union.
Some non-trinitarians believe there is the Holy Spirit ( the spirit of God) and THE Holy Spirit ( Jesus Christ).
A passage that they use to justify this view is that Jesus is our advocate and the HS is our advocate too.

One very crucial element to understanding in the doctrine of the Triune God is that ALL do the same roles:
All our saviours, All our redeemers, All are judges, All are love.

The perfect union of Father, Son and HS means that you can NOT have one without the others.

This is how WE define a person.
Exactly who are you referring to when you say the collective WE?? This forum?, The board moderators on here? Your Church? Or do you just like to refer to yourself in the plural?
I care not for WE or the developers of the Trinity doctrine opinion when it concerns my spirituality and My Father. Any doctrine written by man I take with a grain of salt. I do not and will not refer to either The Holy Spirit or My Father as person, if you choose to then that's great for you but I regard them in my spiritual walk with much more Divinity.
Yes RickD I believe in the Holy Trinity The Father, Son and The Holy Spirit. To deny the trinity is to deny the true power of our Divine Father.
I have seen and witnessed Christians argue till they are all hot and flustered and angered over such things and other theological debates. I have when I was younger got involved then as I got older and wiser I would just walk away. Everybody just wanted to be right, regardless. They would exhaust their sciptures with underlines and tagged pages then those on the opposing side would do the same, there would be bible quotes flying all over the place. Nobody wanted the truth they just wanted to be RIGHT. They wanted to win the argument, they wanted to give themselves their very own little spiritual pat on the back.
In their quest to be RIGHT they lost focus on what is actually really important. The Almighty does not care!!!!! Let me repeat that again, our heavenly Father does not care!!! Am I right because I choose to not refer to God and the Holy Spirit as a person but rather Divine Spiritual Beings NO , are you right becasue you choose to use the word person NO, I am wrong because I used Itself NO, are you wrong because you would use Himself NO. My point is Our Father does not want us arguing over such things. It is very important to believe in THE TRINITY but we already know that because scripture tells us, these other pointless debates are just that pointless. Whlist believers are arguing over such things, exhausting their energies, wasting their time, Satan has his hand in all wordly matters, the church, politics, media, movies, music, every wordly "side'' Lucifer is controlling and Christians are so busy trying to be right and focusing their energies on matters that The Almighty does not care about. It is our humility, love and compassion he cares about. On our judgment day it is the way in which firstly we loved HIM and secondly we loved every single person we came across that we will be judged on, HE is not going to pull out a thesaurus and scold us on our improper use of our vocabulary, he is going to examine our hearts and what lies therein.

melanie wrote:This is how WE define a person.
Exactly who are you referring to when you say the collective WE?? This forum?, The board moderators on here? Your Church? Or do you just like to refer to yourself in the plural?
I care not for WE or the developers of the Trinity doctrine opinion when it concerns my spirituality and My Father. Any doctrine written by man I take with a grain of salt. I do not and will not refer to either The Holy Spirit or My Father as person, if you choose to then that's great for you but I regard them in my spiritual walk with much more Divinity.
Yes RickD I believe in the Holy Trinity The Father, Son and The Holy Spirit. To deny the trinity is to deny the true power of our Divine Father.
I have seen and witnessed Christians argue till they are all hot and flustered and angered over such things and other theological debates. I have when I was younger got involved then as I got older and wiser I would just walk away. Everybody just wanted to be right, regardless. They would exhaust their sciptures with underlines and tagged pages then those on the opposing side would do the same, there would be bible quotes flying all over the place. Nobody wanted the truth they just wanted to be RIGHT. They wanted to win the argument, they wanted to give themselves their very own little spiritual pat on the back.
In their quest to be RIGHT they lost focus on what is actually really important. The Almighty does not care!!!!! Let me repeat that again, our heavenly Father does not care!!! Am I right because I choose to not refer to God and the Holy Spirit as a person but rather Divine Spiritual Beings NO , are you right becasue you choose to use the word person NO, I am wrong because I used Itself NO, are you wrong because you would use Himself NO. My point is Our Father does not want us arguing over such things. It is very important to believe in THE TRINITY but we already know that because scripture tells us, these other pointless debates are just that pointless. Whlist believers are arguing over such things, exhausting their energies, wasting their time, Satan has his hand in all wordly matters, the church, politics, media, movies, music, every wordly "side'' Lucifer is controlling and Christians are so busy trying to be right and focusing their energies on matters that The Almighty does not care about. It is our humility, love and compassion he cares about. On our judgment day it is the way in which firstly we loved HIM and secondly we loved every single person we came across that we will be judged on, HE is not going to pull out a thesaurus and scold us on our improper use of our vocabulary, he is going to examine our hearts and what lies therein.

Amen.

Melanie, the personhood of the Holy Spirit is not going to keep you out of heaven, no. But if you were to follow your arguments consistently, you would have to, in the end, either deny the Personhood of Christ or else reject the claim that He is God.

I take it that you wouldn't intentionally do that, and I take it further that you don't see how your attempt at piety has that result. The reason, I take it further still, is that you have not studied why the Church has historically used the word Person to describe the Holy Spirit. If you are interested in a taste of the real arguments as to why we (and by "we" I am talking about the historical church) use the language we do to describe the Holy Spirit, you would do well to start with this article:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm

You should also study these:

On the word Person as it applies to God: http://home.newadvent.org/summa/1029.htm (note especially article 3)

On the Holy Spirit:
http://home.newadvent.org/summa/1036.htm
http://home.newadvent.org/summa/1037.htm
http://home.newadvent.org/summa/1038.htm

The bottom line is that "person" is a very technical term. If all you do is appeal to an English dictionary, you are going to have a terrible time of figuring out classical Trinitarian language. But more to the point, again, the real problem you are going to have is in your Christology. What you are saying will end up having you deny that Jesus is one Person with two natures, and from that, very serious consequences arise very quickly.

Thankyou jac3510 for taking the time to respond and send me links. But your desire for this argument has allowed you to entirely miss the point.
I have zero desire to follow my argument consistenly, inconsistently or otherwise. I have no affiliation with the historical church and no desire to do so. I have nil desire to figure out the classical trinitarian language, you can spend all the time you desire on such things and I hope in this endevour you reach a strong, personal relationship with Our Father.
How interesting that a post in regards to a very controversial, important issue surrounding the end days and my view of the alien deception has received no response, no backlash, no argument either way instead here we find ourselves going around and around in circles on words such as 'person'. I will repeat myself again, it does not matter. So you think it does, okay, lets agree to disagree. I will concern myself with my salvation and consequences and you can do so for yourself. Jesus is my saviour, messiah and King. If you are looking for an argument you find none here, but im sure there are many who will partake in your debate on both sides, and good luck with that.

I'm not looking for an argument. If you don't want to educate yourself, that's frankly not my problem. I think your position is terribly unbiblical, and it amounts to little more than fideism, which is to say, blind faith. I appreciate the attempted piety in it, but, appreciation aside, there's nothing respectable in it.

As I said, though, there's no argument. I simply provided you some material you can look at if you choose to do so. If you don't, that's on you.

First, Melanie, I respect you for not wanting to get into an argument on semantics and having higher priorities, and I do agree with your view of the historical church's want/need/demand to be right. That said: You typed what looks like a page explaining why you weren't going to waste time on it. An entire page. That's kind of funny.

Anyway, just to be sure: You do believe the Holy Spirit is a thinking being right and not just a force or an object? Like you said Spiritual Being so I assume you do. I think people are getting a little thrown off and maybe concerned by your stricter than average definition of "person".

Yes SeekingSanctuary I commented that I thought that Christians at times waste their energy on the unimportant, then went on to state what I believe is important to Our Father, but yeah I can go on a bit at times, I put it down to being passionate, others may put it down to being a pain in the ass
Yes I do believe the Holy Spirit is a thinking being and there is no strict definition of ''person'' on my behalf, more so a belief that it is actually not really that important if I refer to The Holy Spirit as a Spiritual being and others refer to person. In that being said as I have stated a couple times it is of extreme importance to believe in The Trinity.

Yes SeekingSanctuary I commented that I thought that Christians at times waste their energy on the unimportant, then went on to state what I believe is important to Our Father, but yeah I can go on a bit at times, I put it down to being passionate, others may put it down to being a pain in the ***

So does over half the people here. You're going to fit in great.

Yes I do believe the Holy Spirit is a thinking being and there is no strict definition of ''person'' on my behalf, more so a belief that it is actually not really that important if I refer to The Holy Spirit as a Spiritual being and others refer to person. In that being said as I have stated a couple times it is of extreme importance to believe in The Trinity.

Well, you said it/He/whatever would have to be a biological human, that's more specific then most people here.

Also, we haven't actually interacted on here yet. Hi!