Evidence for God from Science

The above statement is not a riddle, it means "let the Bible interpret itself" every good Bible student is aware of that.

Starhunter wrote:The above statement is not a riddle, it means "let the Bible interpret itself" every good Bible student is aware of that.

Well this statement above is just plain nonsense. As I said, and you conveniently ignored, some theists are illiterate and can only go on what they are told.

It is not about being a 'good' bible student. Many will study and NEVER gain a true understanding. It is about having a good conscience. Some atheists have more Godly morals than bible students and some Christians. This is the point that those that think they know have actually missed. These will never come to a true understanding because they seek ways to argue they are better than the rest.

Additionally, you feel that the only correct interpretation of the bible and following commandments 'correctly' is YOURS, because you area good bible student. That makes you self righteous and no better than anyone else of the many exclusionary faiths that argue much the same, 'my way or the highway to hell'. Anyone elses interpretation of right and wrong based on scripture and how one makes moral decisions is not up to any individual. The bible gives us all considerations to help in moral dilemmas and in the end Godly behaviour is a matter of conscience eg killing to save the innocent, is it a sin not to go to Church on Sunday or the Sabbath? are you condemned for stealing food to feed your family? is anyone that breaks any of the 10 commandments better than someone that has a lustful or hateful thought?

You cannot answer such questions, because no matter how much you study the bible, there is no law about such things. It is a matter of conscience that is between the individual and God.

bluefortrue wrote:But he whose life is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his acts have been done by the help of God. John 3 16-21

etc etc etc

At Matthew 24:21-22 Jesus said-
And if those days had not been cut short
No human being would be saved
But for the sake of the Holy Ones
Those days will be cut short.

As Daniel continued the vision, thrones were placed,and the Ancient of Days took his seat in the court of the Holy ones, his clothing was as white as snow, his throne was fiery flames. A stream of fire was flowing and came out from before him, a thousand thousand served him and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.The court of the Holy Ones sat in judgement, books were opened, they decided his dominion rule shall be taken away from him, he was to be consumed and destroyed.
The kingdom and dominion shall be given to the people of the holy ones, of the Most High.

Daniel, like Revelation can be interpreted many ways with different players, the Pope, the UN, America, Islam, Christian sects etc etc. or it is all in the past.

The days that were cut short in Mathew was when the Roman army ran out of supplies and left the vicinity of Jerusalem giving a brief period for those that knew scripture to leave Jerusalem and head for the hills. That is when the most important icon for Jesusalem, the whore of Babylon, was destroyed and has remained so with the capstone of the Dome of the Rock over it.

As far as judgement is concerned, one can either believe one is judged for eternity on the basis of this life OR one can believe those that don't make the grade come back for another chance or can atone for their sin eg purgatory, soul sleep, continual reincarnation until one acccepts Christ, a resurrection to life in the last days of judgement for all the 'unholy ones' to see all that is spoken of, or a black and white version of the 'holy' going to heaven and the 'unholy' going to eternal destruction or suffering. Some argue not all salvation is in heaven but most will remain on a paradise earth for eternity eg only the 144K Jews will get to heaven.

God does not want us to know. If I am asked I talk about what most faiths believe and that what is important is that one serves God, regardless of the reward. Even if God told me today I am doomed, I would still serve God as best I can and tell Satan that I love God even though I have been found unworthy. That is true love that is not based on the sort of reward being offered.

God does not want mankind to serve him because they know their reward or just how much they can get away with and still go through the pearly gates. I reckon God likes to see people waste their time with prophecy. Some people really think getting to heaven is about working prophecy out, when in actual fact they'd please God much better if they got out and helped their neighbour, particularly their enemy.

I gave you a very concise, unambiguous statement, with no emotive talk, no venting and ranting and preaching, no intention of judging - a statement that every normal student, and sane scholar can handle.

I CHOOSE NOT TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU ANY FURTHER ON THIS FORUM

Starhunter wrote:The above statement is not a riddle, it means "let the Bible interpret itself" every good Bible student is aware of that.

This above comment is nonsensical and every 'good'' bible student is aware of that. eg You have no idea what the 10 kings or little horn is for sure anymore than anyone else.

Let every good Christian use scripture to inform their own moral decisions because in the end Christs blood covers a multitude of sin.

Starhunter wrote:I gave you a very concise, unambiguous statement, with no emotive talk, no venting and ranting and preaching, no intention of judging - a statement that every normal student, and sane scholar can handle.

I CHOOSE NOT TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU ANY FURTHER ON THIS FORUM

Actually what you give is the impression that you are a bible student that thinks he has worked it all out and no one else has. I am sorry if I have rubbed you the wrong way. However talking in terms of reality is not venting or ranting.

Your incinuating that your view is the result of being an 'honest bible student' that 'let's the bible speak for itself' and anyone else that disagrees with you is not a sane scholar or a 'normal student' is about as self righteous as one can get. It appears you do not even realize what you are saying.

Again I am sorry if you feel offended. Yet, I am not going to sit here and listen to someone tell me I am neither normal nor sane because I disagree with you.

Mazz,

You have not offended me.

In nearly every post in this forum, the sum of all your attempted insults, is to try and make me feel, shamed, guilty, unreasonable, self righteous, arrogant, and every possible foul thing.

Its not too complicated, its called transference, you are dumping all your unresolved issues onto me.

That's OK, I can handle it, but it is not helping you.

You must be feeling all those things that you want me to feel.

I am sorry about what might have caused you to act that way, to demean you to the lowest level.

To dis empower you, and hedge you in.

I don't know your life, but I hope that you will find the courage not to want to make me feel stupid and delusional.

Just answer his questions, please give a spine to your theory or is it just your opinion?

Starhunter wrote:Mazz,

You have not offended me.

In nearly every post in this forum, the sum of all your attempted insults, is to try and make me feel, shamed, guilty, unreasonable, self righteous, arrogant, and every possible foul thing.

Its not too complicated, its called transference, you are dumping all your unresolved issues onto me.

That's OK, I can handle it, but it is not helping you.

You must be feeling all those things that you want me to feel.

I am sorry about what might have caused you to act that way, to demean you to the lowest level.

To dis empower you, and hedge you in.

I don't know your life, but I hope that you will find the courage not to want to make me feel stupid and delusional.

Starhunter, when you say things like "every honest bible student knows" "any sane bible student" etc etc etc and things like that which you often do on various threads, you are actually the one insulting anyone that does not agree with you. You are saying that anyone that does not agree with you is not an honest bible student nor sane etc.

The 10 Kings and the little horn can actually be anything you want them to be. Babylon the Great can be pretty much any faith or institution one wants or needs it to be. People have many views and these can be interesting to discuss and challenge. Your suggesting that anyone that does not agree with you has something wrong with them is an insult to those you speak to.

So I apologize for coming down on you so hard but I am neither dishonest nor insane and my opinion holds as much weight as yours.

No actually I'm glad you did now, I did not realize I sounded so opinionated, probably explains a whole lot of other things in my life!

neo-x wrote:Just answer his questions, please give a spine to your theory or is it just your opinion?

Now where did we go off on a tangent?

neo-x wrote:Just answer his questions, please give a spine to your theory or is it just your opinion?

Here is a layout of the images used in Daniel, then later we'll compare that with Revelation and see what comes up.

The metal image, The beasts, Chapter 8,

Babylon, Lion,

Another kingdom, Bear, Persia the ram

Another kingdom, Leopard (4 heads), Greece the goat (1 horn = 1st king) Four horns,

Another kingdom, Beast with ten horns, out of one of the 4 horns a little horn which waxed
exceeding great -

The little blasphemous persecuting horn and by him the daily was taken away

The Rock that breaks it, Kingdom of Christ


Note it does not say that the fourth kingdom is Rome etc. But according to chapter 8, it had to be bigger than Greece, which could only be Rome, with ten horns, three kingdoms were overthrown by one little horn, the Papacy which persecuted the saints for over a thousand years.
Chapter eight reveals that its nature is Satanic, by saying it cast some of the stars of heaven to the ground. That is its spiritual origin.

The same expression appears in Revelation when speaking about the power that existed at the time of Christ, Rome, and it identifies this power with Satan or the dragon which made war in heaven and drew down a third of the stars of heaven.

Both Daniel and Revelation give a specific time span that this blasphemous power would reign - as a time, times and half a time, or three and a half years which equals 1260 days, which equals 40 months (30 days times 40 = 1260).

When you read these time references, you will soon realize that they are all talking about the same power on earth, in the same time period.

But those times frames, in fact all the time frames in the books of Daniel and Revelationare closed to understanding, unless the reader is aware of one key - which by the way does not work in any other prophecies in the Bible, even though it is a principle known to Bible students. Its called the year day principle. See Genesis 5:5. there are about twenty other texts in the Bible to illustrate this.

Knowing this key, will unlock Daniel and Revelation, and show a connection between these two books, which unlock each other as well.

So 1260 days is actually 1260 years.

To prove this time period and analysis, the other four chapters of Daniel were written, bringing out 9 time spans which all tie in with each other to put it beyond question and doubt.

It is interesting that the Papacy ruled from 538 AD to 1798 AD which is 1260 years.

Now if we ignore the year/day key, the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation are calculated in literal days, and none of them fit in with all the main descriptions in both books.

Daniel Chapter 9 gives the setting of the longest time prophecy in the Bible, which stretches over 2300 days/years. three of the nine time spans give the time of the death of Christ, Daniel 9:26 (Only use the KJV, it has no deletions and changes of any fundamental truth relating to Christ).

The myriads of strange interpretations of these particular prophecies, come from trying to put literal days, at the time of Daniel, or later in Greek times, or at the time of Israel, or into our times, or future. And these they promote as tribulations and all kind of theories which have nothing to do with the grand themes of these prophecies, beginning in the time of Daniel, covering all major empires and ending with the Kingdom of Christ.

The book of Revelation has four beasts representing kingdoms on earth, Chapter 11 has one, Ch 13 has two and Ch 17 has one.

The red dragon in Ch 12 is not an earthly kingdom, but a representation of the power behind all world empires, especially Rome. It is not called a beast even though it looks like one.

Now if you count all the beasts in Daniel and Rev, you have 10 all together.

Two of those are a double up of Persia and Greece, so now we have only 8.

When describing the last beast the Bible gives this clue -Revelation 17:11

Since the eighth is of the seven, or all of the seven, there are really only 7 empires.

Note the 7 heads on the dragon and the beast of Ch 13? Seven attempts of Satan to control the masses, through politics and false religion. This is why Daniel has the added stories of political and religious persecution, to set the scene for understanding what God has revealed, but which the wicked cannot and will not know.Daniel 12:10.

Here is a summary

The head of gold, Babylon, the lion
The chest of silver, Media-Persia, the bear, the ram with two horns
The thighs of brass, Greece, the leopard with four heads, the goat with one great king, and four divisions of its empire
The legs of iron, another greater kingdom, the diverse beast, the little horn out of one of the Greek provinces
The feet of iron and clay, the ten horns and the little horn, the beast of Rev 13 with ten horns
in these modern times after the beast of Rev 13, the beast out of the bottomless pit Rev 11:7
the two horned beast out of the earth Ch 13
the last scarlet beast Ch 17

See there are eight beasts all together, but if the eighth is of the seven, which one of the seven empires or powers is it likely to be identified with? That answer as well as many other clues will tell us the exact nature of the last beast.

I know this all sounds like another opinion, so it is important that both books are read first in an authorized version of the Bible, like the KJV.

Starhunter wrote: So 1260 days is actually 1260 years.

To prove this time period and analysis, the other four chapters of Daniel were written, bringing out 9 time spans which all tie in with each other to put it beyond question and doubt.

It is interesting that the Papacy ruled from 538 AD to 1798 AD which is 1260 years.

The papacy has ruled from St Linus (app 64-79AD), or before with St Peter, until today which is around 1950 years.