Evidence for God from Science

Byblos wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Even in the Catechisim, the church is the WHOLE of all those that believe, all believers make up the church/body of Christ:

752:
In Christian usage, the word "church" designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. "The Church" is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ's Body.

753 In Scripture, we find a host of interrelated images and figures through which Revelation speaks of the inexhaustible mystery of the Church. The images taken from the Old Testament are variations on a profound theme: the People of God. In the New Testament, all these images find a new center because Christ has become the head of this people, which henceforth is his Body.144 Around this center are grouped images taken "from the life of the shepherd or from cultivation of the land, from the art of building or from family life and marriage."145

754 "The Church is, accordingly, a sheepfold, the sole and necessary gateway to which is Christ. It is also the flock of which God himself foretold that he would be the shepherd, and whose sheep, even though governed by human shepherds, are unfailingly nourished and led by Christ himself, the Good Shepherd and Prince of Shepherds, who gave his life for his sheep.146

Which is precisely the point of his statement Paul. I mean if one would read what he said without the lens of the RCC or his position as a Pope, I don't think he said anything any christian would disagree with. His point was by no means that one should not have a personal relationship with Christ, his focal point is that it ought not be done outside the community of believers because that is where it is most effective. After all we are a church, a community of believers where our faith grows and thrives. Strip all the theological differences and the titles and so forth and that's exactly what the Pope's point was. I wonder why any Christian would disagree with that.

The issue is that he stated that we need a mediator and that mediator is the church.It isn't, it is Christ and the ONLY way for Him to mediate for Us IS to have a personal relationship with Him.

Only a saved believer has the Holy Spirit. There is a difference between the Spirit's prompting and Its Indwelling. And God's foreknowledge allows Him to know precisely what prompting and actions each person will need to come to faith - and those are different, person to person.

But Philip, when does the believer have the HS?
When he believes? After? Before?
I mean how can one believe without the HS?
It is the HS that compels us to believe and only by the HS can we proclaim Christ.

Byblos wrote:

1over137 wrote:

neo-x wrote:I think its a clever move to bring people back to the church. I think that is all this is, wrong but still...

Why does not he say we need fellowship. We need our brothers and sisters and they need us. We need them for encouragement, support, and they need us.

What do you think the church is?

Believers

PaulSacramento wrote:The issue is that he stated that we need a mediator and that mediator is the church.It isn't, it is Christ and the ONLY way for Him to mediate for Us IS to have a personal relationship with Him.

No, that is not the issue at all. That's a complete misunderstanding of the type of mediator Christ is. He is the the only mediator in matters of salvation, yes. But where does it say he's the sole mediator in matters of prayers and fellowship? In fact I could cite dozens of verses that say otherwise.

1over137 wrote:

Byblos wrote:

1over137 wrote:

neo-x wrote:I think its a clever move to bring people back to the church. I think that is all this is, wrong but still...

Why does not he say we need fellowship. We need our brothers and sisters and they need us. We need them for encouragement, support, and they need us.

What do you think the church is?

Believers

I agree. How do you think that contradicts what the pope said?

What do you mean by that 'that'? What is your question Byblos?

1over137 wrote:What do you mean by that 'that'? What is your question Byblos?

The pope says we need the church to have a personal relationship with Christ. You and I say the church is the community of believers. Why is that different from what he's saying?

Byblos wrote:

1over137 wrote:What do you mean by that 'that'? What is your question Byblos?

The pope says we need the church to have a personal relationship with Christ. You and I say the church is the community of believers. Why is that different from what he's saying?

Because it sounds like without other believers you do not have a personal relationship with Christ.

Question: if you read bible, if you repent, that is not relationship with Christ? If through HS you are formed, through reading the Bible, is that not a relationship with Christ?

1over137 wrote:

Byblos wrote:

1over137 wrote:What do you mean by that 'that'? What is your question Byblos?

The pope says we need the church to have a personal relationship with Christ. You and I say the church is the community of believers. Why is that different from what he's saying?

Because it sounds like without other believers you do not have a personal relationship with Christ.

Question: if you read bible, if you repent, that is not relationship with Christ? If through HS you are formed, through reading the Bible, is that not a relationship with Christ?

Of course it is. But how many of those relationships are sustainable without the support system the church (i.e. the community of believers) can provide?

Byblos wrote:

1over137 wrote:

Byblos wrote:

1over137 wrote:What do you mean by that 'that'? What is your question Byblos?

The pope says we need the church to have a personal relationship with Christ. You and I say the church is the community of believers. Why is that different from what he's saying?

Because it sounds like without other believers you do not have a personal relationship with Christ.

Question: if you read bible, if you repent, that is not relationship with Christ? If through HS you are formed, through reading the Bible, is that not a relationship with Christ?

Of course it is. But how many of those relationships are sustainable without the support system the church (i.e. the community of believers) can provide?

That is a question.

1over137 wrote:

Byblos wrote:

1over137 wrote:

Byblos wrote:

1over137 wrote:What do you mean by that 'that'? What is your question Byblos?

The pope says we need the church to have a personal relationship with Christ. You and I say the church is the community of believers. Why is that different from what he's saying?

Because it sounds like without other believers you do not have a personal relationship with Christ.

Question: if you read bible, if you repent, that is not relationship with Christ? If through HS you are formed, through reading the Bible, is that not a relationship with Christ?

Of course it is. But how many of those relationships are sustainable without the support system the church (i.e. the community of believers) can provide?

That is a question.

Which the pope is answering by saying we're better off as part of the church. So the question really is why would any Christian disagree with that.

Going to read whole speech instead of short news.

http://m.vatican.va/content/francescomo ... erale.html

Philip: But not just ANY kind of belief, but one that truly embraces not only Who Jesus is but a belief that seeks to obey and follow him.

Rick: There are not different kinds of belief/faith. Of course if a believer continues to abide in Christ, one will want to follow Christ. That's discipleship. That's not salvation.

Yes there ARE different kinds of belief - as I noted, even demons believe Jesus is God. Millions believe He was a historical figure, but they don't believe in WHO He is and what He did at the cross. Millions believe Jesus was a good, moral teacher, but they don't revere Him as God. This is what I meant.

Philip: And Salvation is ENTIRELY what God does for us (ONLY) if we OBEY what He requires (true faith!).

Rick: Salvation is by God's grace, through faith/trust in Christ. It's simple. Don't make it complicated. We need to be careful saying salvation comes only if we obey. That would mean salvation was dependent on how we obey. That's a works based salvation.

Rick: Maybe you don't mean it that way, but as it was written, it looks like a works based salvation.

Rick, you can either agree with what the Scriptures I used say, or not. What do they SAY? Does man have a decision to make or not? Must they believe Jesus is God and that He rose from the dead, or not? Must they repent of their sins, or not? Must they trust Him to save them, or not? Don't confuse "Lordship" salvation (abundantly and appropriately discredited in this forum) with what I'm asserting here - which is what I think you are doing. And you know my history of posts well enough to know that I totally agree that 1) no one can come to Christ in their own power and 2) that God guides those WILLING and who are obedient to His words and prompting. Our only real role is to be willing and then obedient to God's prompting. SAVING belief and salvation are SIMULTANEOUS. But is there a SEQUENCE to what happens BEFORE those! Of course, God's Spirit's prompting and wooing precede salvation. Also, HEARING the Gospel message and THEN positively responding to it, through faith - and at that VERY moment - one is saved.

God makes the ENTIRE salvation process POSSIBLE and He guides it along the way. And at ANY stage BEFORE salvation one can fall away and reject God's Spirit. But IF you believe God does it ALL - that He FORCES one to either belief or non-belief, then you are right there with the Five Point Calvinists and you abundantly contradict many Scriptures. And FORCED love is not love at all. It's an arbitrary, one-sided, manufactured love. But God didn't do that. And so there ARE things that God requires of a man so that HE can save us with HIS Spirit's prompting, wooing, all the way to salvation.

But as to whether one can be saved and have a relationship with Christ WITHOUT ANY ongoing mediation (outside of preaching the Gospel BEFORE salvation) is absolutely false!

Byblos wrote:Which the pope is answering by saying we're better off as part of the church. So the question really is why would any Christian disagree with that.

Because that is not the only part of his message -- he is separating us from God and inserting a mediator for us to have a relationship with God.

From the article:

Pope Francis described as "dangerous" the temptation to believe that one can have "a personal, direct, immediate relationship with Jesus Christ without communion with and the mediation of the church."

That is just wrong. Without communion? Without mediation of the church??

Stu wrote:

Byblos wrote:Which the pope is answering by saying we're better off as part of the church. So the question really is why would any Christian disagree with that.

Because that is not the only part of his message -- he is separating us from God and inserting a mediator for us to have a relationship with God.

From the article:

Pope Francis described as "dangerous" the temptation to believe that one can have "a personal, direct, immediate relationship with Jesus Christ without communion with and the mediation of the church."

That is just wrong. Without communion? Without mediation of the church??

And once again I ask you where in scripture does it say that Christ is the sole mediator in matters of prayer and fellowship (not salvation).

Besides which, what do you think communion and mediation of the church mean? Can you tell me what you think intercessory prayers mean and if they are efficacious?