"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
If God NEEDS something or HAS to have something, it means He is NOT God because He would be not only changeable and moveable BUT also incomplete and not whole.Domenic wrote:Paul,
Where did you get the idea God doesn't need anything, or have to (have) anything?
Dominci, for the LAST time, the scriptures do NOT read all OTHER things, that is only in the NWT translation where the JW's INSERTED the word "other" to justify their view that Jesus was created.Domenic wrote:
Dude? Let me brake down the scripture for you. I do understand how many people read it. It was written telling two events, and has to be viewed as two events:
God creates Jesus
Through Jesus God creates everything else.
Colossians 1:15
“He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION; by means of him all other things were created in the Heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordship or governments or authorities. All (other) things have been created through him and for him.
Colossians 1:15
1) THE FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION;
2) by means of him all other things were created
1) We have two words that seem to be in conflict, Born, and Created. Three thing are for certain here...he was either Born, Created, or both.
2) After he was..one or all of the above three...it was by means of him that ALL OTHER things were created.
Since all things were created by God through Jesus...Jesus was there at the beginning of creation with God. This is why Jesus is called the first Born of all Creation to show Jesus was with Father before all other things were created.
That is hard for me to explain, so if you don't understand how I said it, I'll try again...Dude.
I'm sorry Paul, but my King James says the same thing that the NWT says. Colossians 1:15PaulSacramento wrote:Dominci, for the LAST time, the scriptures do NOT read all OTHER things, that is only in the NWT translation where the JW's INSERTED the word "other" to justify their view that Jesus was created.Domenic wrote:
Dude? Let me brake down the scripture for you. I do understand how many people read it. It was written telling two events, and has to be viewed as two events:
God creates Jesus
Through Jesus God creates everything else.
Colossians 1:15
“He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION; by means of him all other things were created in the Heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordship or governments or authorities. All (other) things have been created through him and for him.
Colossians 1:15
1) THE FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION;
2) by means of him all other things were created
1) We have two words that seem to be in conflict, Born, and Created. Three thing are for certain here...he was either Born, Created, or both.
2) After he was..one or all of the above three...it was by means of him that ALL OTHER things were created.
Since all things were created by God through Jesus...Jesus was there at the beginning of creation with God. This is why Jesus is called the first Born of all Creation to show Jesus was with Father before all other things were created.
That is hard for me to explain, so if you don't understand how I said it, I'll try again...Dude.
Again, every text that we have, from the earliest on, does NOT have the word "other" in it.
I have made that clear a couple of times already if you persist in ignoring this then what is the point of discussing this at all ?
Dominic, for someone claiming to have have left the JW's, you still use the NWT? Again, I challenge to take a few basic Biblical Greek and Hebrew Classes, and you will discover that Paul is correct as well as Jac, others, and myself regarding the text you cite.PaulSacramento wrote:Dominci, for the LAST time, the scriptures do NOT read all OTHER things, that is only in the NWT translation where the JW's INSERTED the word "other" to justify their view that Jesus was created.
Again, every text that we have, from the earliest on, does NOT have the word "other" in it.
I have made that clear a couple of times already if you persist in ignoring this then what is the point of discussing this at all ?
For what you say to be true would prove that God made a logical contradiction and thus proves himself false to his own words, oaths, promises and thus not God supreme.The Simplicity of the matter is: Only God can save, no other God, therefore, Jesus is God because he saves and is worshiped as well. For Jesus to be God, means he preexisted as God and the doctrine of the Trinty is true, after all, as it is written: "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?" Jer 32:27 NASB
He most certainly can come in the Flesh. The the 2nd person of the one God most certainly could because there is none like God as Isa 46:9 states,therefore, God's oneness has to be absolutely unlike our concept of oneness for there to be truly none like Him. In fact the preexistence Jesus mentioned this about himself in the OT, as well as the Father and Holy Spirit too. Where?
Isa 43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me."
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isa 45:21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.
And in the New which matches the Old in Isa 45:22-23 in:
Philippians 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Problem is for oneness folks is that they do not understand monogenese or that the the Messiah spoken of in the Bible (OT) would be God himself, joining with Humanity as a son of man so we can become his adopted sons and daughters of God. Oneness folks do take the bible concerning Jesus illiterately...
God did say this - "Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.." For that to remain true for the unchanging God who keeps his word and lies not would mean that by creating another in flesh that would be worshiped and extolled as equal with God even in heaven as Rev 5:12-13 would be contradictory to God's own word spoken long ago. It stands to reason that Jesus is God manifest in Human Flesh because only God can save from sins. Jesus spoke of this in Isaiah and the Prophets and even in the Torah...
Bible quotes form NASB and NKJV
For what you say to be true would prove that God made a logical contradiction and thus proves himself false to his own words, oaths, promises and thus not God supreme.B. W. wrote:Dominic, for someone claiming to have have left the JW's, you still use the NWT? Again, I challenge to take a few basic Biblical Greek and Hebrew Classes, and you will discover that Paul is correct as well as Jac, others, and myself regarding the text you cite.PaulSacramento wrote:Dominci, for the LAST time, the scriptures do NOT read all OTHER things, that is only in the NWT translation where the JW's INSERTED the word "other" to justify their view that Jesus was created.
Again, every text that we have, from the earliest on, does NOT have the word "other" in it.
I have made that clear a couple of times already if you persist in ignoring this then what is the point of discussing this at all ?
As I stated a few frames back...
The Simplicity of the matter is: Only God can save, no other God, therefore, Jesus is God because he saves and is worshiped as well. For Jesus to be God, means he preexisted as God and the doctrine of the Trinty is true, after all, as it is written: "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?" Jer 32:27 NASB
He most certainly can come in the Flesh. The the 2nd person of the one God most certainly could because there is none like God as Isa 46:9 states,therefore, God's oneness has to be absolutely unlike our concept of oneness for there to be truly none like Him. In fact the preexistence Jesus mentioned this about himself in the OT, as well as the Father and Holy Spirit too. Where?
Isa 43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me."
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isa 45:21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.
And in the New which matches the Old in Isa 45:22-23 in:
Philippians 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Problem is for oneness folks is that they do not understand monogenese or that the the Messiah spoken of in the Bible (OT) would be God himself, joining with Humanity as a son of man so we can become his adopted sons and daughters of God. Oneness folks do take the bible concerning Jesus illiterately...
God did say this - "Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.." For that to remain true for the unchanging God who keeps his word and lies not would mean that by creating another in flesh that would be worshiped and extolled as equal with God even in heaven as Rev 5:12-13 would be contradictory to God's own word spoken long ago. It stands to reason that Jesus is God manifest in Human Flesh because only God can save from sins. Jesus spoke of this in Isaiah and the Prophets and even in the Torah...
Bible quotes form NASB and NKJV
I ask because you seem to lack consistency. You claim the letters aren't inspired, but they are your primary sources of verses to back up your religious views. I may be wrong, perhaps there is something about your views you haven't shared that makes everything you've said fit together, but for me to know that you have to actually talk to me.Domenic wrote:Why do you ask me these questions? Jesus is our teacher...it is him you should be asking. If you are looking to have a Bible study, there are many on this forum that will help you.SeekingSanctuary wrote:Yes, and I found out historians have contention over the book of Revelations, that reading prophecies that have already been fulfilled is good for my faith, and that the Bible was badly put together (yet we should still have faith in), nothing that answers my root question.Domenic wrote:i don't like to cover the same ground twice...you will find your answer on the thread..."Your time on Patmos"SeekingSanctuary wrote:You never did get back to me, Dom, so I'll ask you one of my two questions again.
Dom, how do you decide what you think is inspired by God and what do you think isn't?
I ask because before you've mentioned that you do not believe the letters of Paul were inspired by God. Yet, so far, the main thing you're using to support your beliefs is a single verse in one those very letters.
Do you feel that Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, or the Book of Revelations are Inspired Texts?
How do you decide what you think is inspired by God and what isn't?
Also, how do you feel about the other books I mentioned? You say to test everything, but test them against what?
Incorrect, here is the KJV of that verse:Well you are wrong again...I did not take Col 1:15 from the NWT..I took it from the King James...ISBN 9789868522312 and it says the same thing that is in the NWT...what you teach violates Gods word.
Domenic, it is clear to us that you are trying to peddle JW doctrines here, that is unacceptable.Domenic wrote:Please explain Paul. what is the difference between every, and all?
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creature:
it is you who are trying to change Gods word. I don't know what they did to you as a JW, but scripture are scripture no matter if a person is a JW, of whatever...All, and Every in this scripture have the same meaning. I gave you the ISBN of the King James...IT SAYS OTHER, but it would not matter if it said ALL...it's the same meaning. What are you trying to do?
1 month banSeekingSanctuary wrote:Is this a permanent ban or a temporary one?
Temporary...SeekingSanctuary wrote:Is this a permanent ban or a temporary one?
The word following is creation. therefore, He is supreme over all Creation just as the CJB translates: "He is the visible image of the invisible God. He is supreme over all creation...," Col 1:15 CJB (Complete Jewish Bible) as that is a more accurate translation of this text.Strongs Number - Greek word 3956
πάς
All - every
(I) Includes the idea of oneness, a totality or the whole, the same as hólos (Greek 3650), the whole.