Evidence for God from Science

What do you think of B.W.'s post above?

RickD, 1Over, and BW

I think BW is genuine about presenting the balance.

Of course, nothing goes past Jesus Christ when it comes to salvation, therefore to minimize whatever He commands is a rejection of Him as Lord.

I can understand that some fanatics would turn baptism into dead formalism, making it over and above Christ, which is not what I have done or suggested. In such a situation baptism is a hindrance to salvation, and a condition not required of the gospel.

However in the context of one's acceptance and understanding of the gospel, including receiving the Holy Spirit, then baptism can be commanded. As in Acts 10:47,48.

So to answer the thread Q, yes, but only if it is in harmony with the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit and circumstances permitting. The Eunuch said to Phillip "here's water, what's to stop my baptism?" the circumstances were right.

It's a case of the level of understanding and experience of the individual.

Starhunter wrote:

What do you think of B.W.'s post above?

I think BW is genuine about presenting the balance.

Of course, nothing goes past Jesus Christ when it comes to salvation, therefore to minimize whatever He commands is a rejection of Him as Lord.

I can understand that some fanatics would turn baptism into dead formalism, making it over and above Christ, which is not what I have done or suggested. In such a situation baptism is a hindrance to salvation, and a condition not required of the gospel.

However in the context of one's acceptance and understanding of the gospel, including receiving the Holy Spirit, then baptism can be commanded. As in Acts 10:47,48.

What do you think Starhunter about this:

When I became a believer I was eager to get baptized. I asked several pastors if they could baptize me. I was not regular church visitor, only from time to time. They refused, because I was not regular visitor or did not see I truly believed or I do not know what.

Edit: and when on hike and passing by the water stream I asked my friend who is also a pastor if he could baptize me. Instead of saying yes which I hoped for he replied that if I did not mind being immersed into cold water. (I knew my friend's position about baptism by sprinkling was also baptism and we discussed this in the past.) So I took it as he was reluctant to do that.

Did that disappoint you?

Starhunter wrote:Did that disappoint you?

I edited my above post and added another story.

Yes, I was dissapointed.

I know that you are led by God, and in the right time you will meet those who recognize the presence of Christ in you, and then you will be grateful that you weren't baptized in any other way.

If these ministers in the past, were Spirit led, they would have prayed with you, then allowed you to confess Christ in your life, then made a time to have the baptism, after meeting and sharing with others who have had the experience.

I know many people who are in very similar circumstances today, and cannot see any harmony with church policies and spiritual needs. There is an absence of primitive godliness. I don't attend church anywhere, because of my circumstances so I am not really aware of what's out there today, except by what people say.

Starhunter wrote:I know that you are led by God, and in the right time you will meet those who recognize the presence of Christ in you, and then you will be grateful that you weren't baptized in any other way.

If these ministers in the past, were Spirit led, they would have prayed with you, then allowed you to confess Christ in your life, then made a time to have the baptism, after meeting and sharing with others who have had the experience.

I know many people who are in very similar circumstances today, and cannot see any harmony with church policies and spiritual needs. There is an absence of primitive godliness. I don't attend church anywhere, because of my circumstances so I am not really aware of what's out there today, except by what people say.

Yes, I feel like God is slowly preparing me to be finally one day a member of some church. I pray for this.

Well, the ministers wanted me to attend preparatory phase. I was to visit the church regularly and attend the preparatory classes.

Is this how it was in the past? People who started to believe had to wait to be baptized? Wasn't it that they confessed their sins and that Jesus is their Savor?

My life was very crazy those times. My family was against me going to church I wished to go. It was very unhealthy period and any discussions about faith lead to unhealthy discussions and emotions and all that. I am still not a church visitor. I do not push my faith on my family members. I try to live my life as Christian is to live and by that witness to them.

But I see that God is working in my life and slowly preparing me. I wish to meet other Christians personally and be with them.

1over137 wrote:

Starhunter wrote:I know that you are led by God, and in the right time you will meet those who recognize the presence of Christ in you, and then you will be grateful that you weren't baptized in any other way.

If these ministers in the past, were Spirit led, they would have prayed with you, then allowed you to confess Christ in your life, then made a time to have the baptism, after meeting and sharing with others who have had the experience.

I know many people who are in very similar circumstances today, and cannot see any harmony with church policies and spiritual needs. There is an absence of primitive godliness. I don't attend church anywhere, because of my circumstances so I am not really aware of what's out there today, except by what people say.

Yes, I feel like God is slowly preparing me to be finally one day a member of some church. I pray for this.

Well, the ministers wanted me to attend preparatory phase. I was to visit the church regularly and attend the preparatory classes.

Is this how it was in the past? People who started to believe had to wait to be baptized? Wasn't it that they confessed their sins and that Jesus is their Savor?

My life was very crazy those times. My family was against me going to church I wished to go. It was very unhealthy period and any discussions about faith lead to unhealthy discussions and emotions and all that. I am still not a church visitor. I do not push my faith on my family members. I try to live my life as Christian is to live and by that witness to them.

But I see that God is working in my life and slowly preparing me. I wish to meet other Christians personally and be with them.

Wow, Hana

If you asked me walking by a stream, I would say sure!

If we ever cross paths in the future, I'll baptize you and your husband whether it be a pool, stream, lake...

You all coming to Colorado soon? Or pray I get an invite to your country and it is a done deal

God Bless!
-
-
-

P.S. also sending you pm

For a baptism to mean something, the person baptized must believe in the act, that act in of itself ( how it is done, by whom, etc) means NOTHING if the person doesn't believe.
Belief is what is required, true belief based on accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour and ALL that comes with that.
And to believe is to have the HS in us, to be sealed by the HS.
Of course we do NOT know the exact process and chronology of these events BUT IMO, I believe they happen at the same moment in time.
We believe because of the HS and we have the HS because we believe.
The act of baptism becomes a "confirmation" of that belief, an act the demonstrates the "Washing" away of the old sins and putting on a "new life".
That said, it can and does mean different things to different people BUT always based on belief in CHRIST and what HE DID and not the ACT of being baptized.
Without Christ that act means nothing, without faith in Christ it means nothing.

To suggest that one can't be saved without being baptized is to suggest that Christ's death means nothing, that the HS means nothing, that without an act, God has no power to save.

Lest we forget: I will show mercy on who I choose.

of course we also have:
Romans 10:9-10 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Read more: http://www.comereason.org/theo_issues/t ... z388I7xJT1

PaulSacramento wrote:
To suggest that one can't be saved without being baptized is to suggest that Christ's death means nothing, that the HS means nothing, that without an act, God has no power to save.

Lest we forget: I will show mercy on who I choose.

Your caution is well meant, yet I have never heard of an extreme baptist group in my life, who has made this doctrine a criterion, even though there have been extreme groups of baptists on other issues.

Starhunter wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:
To suggest that one can't be saved without being baptized is to suggest that Christ's death means nothing, that the HS means nothing, that without an act, God has no power to save.

Lest we forget: I will show mercy on who I choose.

Your caution is well meant, yet I have never heard of an extreme baptist group in my life, who has made this doctrine a criterion, even though there have been extreme groups of baptists on other issues.

The caution is always to remind us that Salvation is NOT about what we can DO but about what God HAS DONE for Us.

Here is mp3 file from B.W. on Baptism http://hanka.hluchy.sk/B_W_/About%20Bap ... Melvin.mp3

Starhunter wrote:Then there are all kinds of baptisms invented by men of all sorts, sprinkling, finger dipping, dunking the head only, washing the hands only, going underwater several times, the list goes on. Many don't even use water.

But the Baptist's have got it right - there is only "one baptism" by immersion, at the time of conversion or at the age of accountability - no infant sprinkling. Baptism by immersion is Biblical. And if you are aware of this fact, then Baptism by water is essential for salvation - if it is available and convenient. But if you don't know about it here are some texts to start with.
Matthew 3:13-16, 28:19-20
Acts 2:38, 8:38,39, 16:30-33, 22:16,
Colossians 2:12,13
Galatians 3:27.
Romans 6:1-4
I Corinthians 12:13

Baptism by immersion means all the body going under water. That's why rivers and lakes were used and not pots and cups.

This has somewhat been addressed but I'll throw in my two cents.
Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
The Greek word Baptizo has no direct object. It means "to immerse." In this case the verse says baptized INTO Christ. Not into water. There are verses where water is the direct object. For example, JTB said he came baptizing WITH water, but one was coming who would baptize WITH the HS and WITH fire.
Are there any Christians here who want to literally suggest that we use flames for baptism?

Next: Romans 6:1-4 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Water is never mentioned. The direct object in this case is Christ and death. That is, we are immersed into his death so that we may have new life. It is Christ's death and not water that we must be cleansed in. Theologically this holds because it is the blood of Christ that cleanses us. 1 John 1:7, Heb. 9:22, Matt. 26:28, Heb. 9:12, Col. 1:14, Rev. 1:5

Paul was chosen to unpack the theology. No one else does. And in all of Paul's writings on justification and salvation, water baptism just doesn't register. In fact Paul avoided the whole water baptism thing. 1 Cor. 1:14

To add, water baptism does play a role in the church. In fact, we could say there is a correlation of baptism and water. However, there are obvious exceptions as noted. It is a far different thing to claim that water baptism is salvific. And I would say that the quote from the OP has failed to follow sound exegesis in drawing its damnable conclusions.

For today's beleiver, Paul says there is ONE baptism. That baptism is described as being by one spirit into one body. (1 Cor. 12:13)

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Much like this verse, Jesus commissions the disciples to go and make disciples of all nations baptizing IN the name of the father, son and HS.
I have no problem with someone inferring that water baptism is in play here. But, Jesus never says that water baptism is essential to receiving eternal life. Over and over again we have examples, from Jesus himself, where salvation is offered by believing with NO sacramental conditions.

1over137 wrote:Here is mp3 file from B.W. on Baptism http://hanka.hluchy.sk/B_W_/About%20Bap ... Melvin.mp3

Well, thanks for posting this old radio message I did on Baptism, hope it helps in some way to make sense out of Baptism and the reason why we become water Baptized.

Just note, it is a bit dramatic, I used southern slang/poor English grammar on purpose to drive home points quickly for a bit of humor and to keep people from falling asleep fast. It is only 22 minutes long.

Some comments I received from in the past went like this - I'll post two positive and two negative but I received more positive then negative one:

Positive:

Enjoyed your message. Liked your word pictures of wedding ring/team jersy help me understand Baptism is my personal public declaration of faith... before all. I went a became baptized afterwards, came out of the water feeling clean knowing I am ready to have my life change radically for Christ. No more milk toast Christianity for me.

Thank you for the lesson, heard on KLND, what you said made sense and I was baptized again with understanding. Baptism does not save us as you mentioned. I was before for that reason but now I make a public wedding ceremony to Christ that I belong to him - bought at a price! The Jesus only baptism folks will not like you as I came out of that terrible mix. Thank you..

Negative:

Poor language used by the uneducated and too simpleton - you sir are an irritant to the English language.. a hold over from those old stupid outdated fire and brimstone preachers...

Wish you clarified if you, baptized by only Jesus name or that false three god baptism formula of the Popeish crowd. I was insulted that you mentioned those Jesus name only as being devisive and bringing devilish mischief into the body of Christ - so I take it you are of the three god popeish clic and are a (deleted the word)... We defend the only truth, you (deleted the word)

Well. those are some of the responses, that last with the name calling is classic...

With that...

I Baptize as Jesus said to do in Matthew 28:19-20 and often run into the Baptism in Jesus Name only folks whose view of God is pure modalism. I do find such openly hostile to all others who are not modalist and they are only inclusive to those holding their views. I do say that these folks are brothers and sisters in Christ with a wrong militant theology on the nature of God. During the first half of the message broadcast was about Baptism and the last half was a loving tactful attempt to reach out to some of these folks to wake up and see the pride within such have to be 'the lords of right...'

Anyway folks - enjoy - this is part of a series on what Church is about to turning milk toast cowering under the threshing floor Christians into whom the Lord desires them to be - Christians with courage and moxie. There are too many milk toasts out there that need a Holy Ghost shot in the arm for direction in life...

Blessings...
-
-
-