Evidence for God from Science

Objective or subjective morality., either one., they exist., and they exist because there is "intelligent" life., therefore, if there where no life., or if there was no order to anything, subjective or objective would be a mute point to argue., but since there is "intelligence" to it all., then there must be some rules to go by that govern., and so we come to morality., anyway you want to you slice it, there's is morality of sorts to deal with., if it its just man made or god given, nevertheless there's rules to be adhered to, and if you drift away from them "in your heart" ~> then there's a price to pay, whether here or in the afterlife., pay now or pay later., you just can't escape objective or subjective morality., both accuse you when you're wrong!

Are you sure you're on the right page there Chief?

Ken

Kenny wrote:Are you sure you're on the right page there Chief?

Ken

Lonewolf gets 100 points scratched in stone as he proved his thesis


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Kenny wrote:Doesn't sound like something I have. If I do have this; I am definitely unaware of it.

If you don't have a worldview, then you must be dead. Enough of this! why not just Google worldview and read what it says...

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Kenny wrote:Doesn't sound like something I have. If I do have this; I am definitely unaware of it.

If you don't have a worldview, then you must be dead. Enough of this! why not just Google worldview and read what it says...

FL

I did! I went to Wikipedia and dictionary.com. their definitions seem to suggest perspective or point of view. Of course when I asked you guys if this is what it means; you guys said no. I didn't wanna do the "well the dictionary says......." again because that doesn't get anywhere so I just asked what you guys say it is so I can understand how you guys are using the term.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Kenny wrote:Doesn't sound like something I have. If I do have this; I am definitely unaware of it.

If you don't have a worldview, then you must be dead. Enough of this! why not just Google worldview and read what it says...

FL

I did! I went to Wikipedia and dictionary.com. their definitions seem to suggest perspective or point of view. Of course when I asked you guys if this is what it means; you guys said no. I didn't wanna do the "well the dictionary says......." again because that doesn't get anywhere so I just asked what you guys say it is so I can understand how you guys are using the term.

Ken

So, I looked up worldview in a book dictionary and this is what I got:

from the German, weltanschauung, 1: a conception of the course of events in and of the purpose of the world as a whole forming a philosophical view or apprehension of the universe : the idea embodied in a cosmology : outlook on the world. 2: philosophy of life : IDEOLOGY 3: the cosmologic conception of a society and its institutions held by its members.

You can see from the above definition that ''worldview'' goes way, way beyond a point of view. Even so, ''point of view'' may be considered an acceptable definition of weltanschauung as long as you understand that it encompasses the very mind of an individual or the beliefs/values of a society.

FL

Kenny wrote:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Kenny wrote:Would it be fair to say "worldview" is sorta like a point of view?

No. A worldview is all-encompassing, over-arching meta-narrative: it is the story you tell yourself in order to make sense of the world around you. A worldview forms your opinions. It is not an opinion, it is not a point-of-view. Unlike a point of view/opinion, a worldview is damn nigh impossible to change, short of a major trauma in your life, or a miracle.

Read jlay's definition again:

jlay wrote:
A worldview is really a list of presuppositions through which reality is interpreted. I've always explained it as a pair glasses through which we view the world. Everyone has a worldview, whether they are conscious of it or not.

FL

Doesn't sound like something I have. If I do have this; I am definitely unaware of it.

So when you say worldviews are nearly impossible to change short of major trauma, or a miracle; when a person changes religions or goes from religious to atheism or atheism to religious, or maybe remain within the same religion but totally change how they worship; does their worldview change when this happens? Because religious beliefs change all the time.

Ken

Ken,

Just a stab in the dark. you are either a Gen y in your lower 30s, or a millennial and in your 20s? I suspect the latter.
I just taught a group of middle school and highschool kids about worldview and they were able to grab this. Everyone has philosophical presuppositions. You can't formulate an opinion without them. These are assumptions you take for granted. You assume that people (for the most part) are rational creatures and that you can comprehend the world around you. Your basic assumptive beliefs are how you interpret reality. You've already demonstrated you have a worldview in other threads. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to make statements such as, "objective moral values don't exist." Your opinion is based in part on a naturalistic worldview. Nature is all there is and ever will be. Carl Sagan promoted this kind of worldview.
When you say religious beliefs change all the time, what do mean by that?

Jlay
Just a stab in the dark. you are either a Gen y in your lower 30s, or a millennial and in your 20s? I suspect the latter.
Ken
You might wanna quit stabbing in the dark; detective work is not your forte.

Jlay
I just taught a group of middle school and highschool kids about worldview and they were able to grab this. Everyone has philosophical presuppositions. You can't formulate an opinion without them. These are assumptions you take for granted. You assume that people (for the most part) are rational creatures and that you can comprehend the world around you. Your basic assumptive beliefs are how you interpret reality. You've already demonstrated you have a worldview in other threads. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to make statements such as, "objective moral values don't exist." Your opinion is based in part on a naturalistic worldview. Nature is all there is and ever will be. Carl Sagan promoted this kind of worldview.
Ken
I suspect what you call “worldview” I call 'point of view' or perceptions.

Jlay
When you say religious beliefs change all the time, what do mean by that?
Ken
I am sure you’ve heard of Atheists becoming Theists and visa versa, I am sure you’ve heard of people joining cults, going from one religion to another; you might even know of someone who had a vague theistic belief, sinning all the time; then for what-ever reason they take their religion more seriously; and begin living a life according to their Christian beliefs. This stuff happens all the time.


Ken

ALL THE TIME

Kenny wrote:I suspect what you call “worldview” I call 'point of view' or perceptions.

I see you're still lost after all this time!

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Kenny wrote:I suspect what you call “worldview” I call 'point of view' or perceptions.

I see you're still lost after all this time!

FL

I am going strictly by what he said.

Ken

Kenny wrote:You might wanna quit stabbing in the dark; detective work is not your forte.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but you offered nothing to refute.

I suspect what you call “worldview” I call 'point of view' or perceptions.

I really don't care to argue the semantics. How you perceive something would certainly be due to a worldview.
But, based on the definitions you earlier said you didn't have one. (a worldview that is) So which is it?

I am sure you’ve heard of Atheists becoming Theists and visa versa, I am sure you’ve heard of people joining cults, going from one religion to another; you might even know of someone who had a vague theistic belief, sinning all the time; then for what-ever reason they take their religion more seriously; and begin living a life according to their Christian beliefs. This stuff happens all the time.

Thanks, it wasn't clear what you were saying happens "all the time." You are using the phrase as hyperbole. Obviously, I don't change worldviews "all the time." Nor do the majority of people. Since there are 6 billion people in the world i don't think this is as common as you imply. But again, we are arguing something without any hard data to back it up either way.

Jlay
I really don't care to argue the semantics. How you perceive something would certainly be due to a worldview.
But, based on the definitions you earlier said you didn't have one. (a worldview that is) So which is it?
Ken
I have opinions.

Jlay
Thanks, it wasn't clear what you were saying happens "all the time." You are using the phrase as hyperbole. Obviously, I don't change worldviews "all the time." Nor do the majority of people. Since there are 6 billion people in the world i don't think this is as common as you imply. But again, we are arguing something without any hard data to back it up either way.
Ken
The person I was responding to said worldviews are nearly impossible to change. Short of major trauma or a miracle; it rarely happens.
I was asking if a change of religious views can result in a change of a person’s worldview. It is not unusual for a person to change their religious views.

Kenny wrote:The person I was responding to said worldviews are nearly impossible to change. Short of major trauma or a miracle; it rarely happens. I was asking if a change of religious views can result in a change of a person’s worldview. It is not unusual for a person to change their religious views.

That person would be me. You have a very contentious spirit - as I've told you before - and I think this is a major impediment to your understanding. As for calling a worldview, a ''point of view'', that is like calling an automobile a ''Motorized carriage'', and like calling a hot air baloon a ''Flying machine''. While correct, technically, all these loose terms have no precision. You insistance on using the term ''point of view'' even after several of us have given you the definition of worldview is - to me - evidence of your stubbornness. Contentious spirit + stubbornness = inability to learn.

If all you want to do is prove your intelligence to yourself, you may stop now. You've acheived your goal.

FL

FL

That person would be me. You have a very contentious spirit - as I've told you before - and I think this is a major impediment to your understanding. As for calling a worldview, a ''point of view'', that is like calling an automobile a ''Motorized carriage'', and like calling a hot air baloon a ''Flying machine''. While correct, technically, all these loose terms have no precision.
Ken
Precision or not, what I said was true! What he calls worldview; I call my opinion.

FL
You insistance on using the term ''point of view'' even after several of us have given you the definition of worldview is - to me - evidence of your stubbornness. Contentious spirit + stubbornness = inability to learn.
Ken
Yes several of you did give definitions! But did everybody agree on this definition? No! So I asked questions to each of you according to what your opinion was. Unfortunately sometimes I would ask one person a question and another person would respond who may have a different POV

FL
If all you want to do is prove your intelligence to yourself, you may stop now. You've acheived your goal.
Ken
My goal was to get you to answer my question; I got a feeling it isn’t going to happen.

Ken