Evidence for God from Science

outlaw wrote:I'm Australian too I live on the sunshine coast, yes I also have children, 3 boys, my wife is a ministers daughter.
I have read that story before too and I'm assuming that's your analogy for gods salvation plan and I don't find it all that noble in fact I find it rather idiotic here's why.
If I made a rule that any of my kids caught taking a biscuit without asking the penalty would be death, then one of my kids takes a biscuit the next day so the family gather around wondering what's going to happen, then I tell them because I love my son and even though he broke my rule I've decided to kill myself instead, then all of my children can go on taking biscuits but will escape punishment because my death paid it.
Later on one of my kids would say wow dad is such a hero for not killing Coby and instead killing himself, but then my older more logical thinking son would say, hang on wasn't it DAD who made the rule in the first place? Dads an idiot he killed himself for nothing all he had to do was make the punishment for taking biscuits something else to begin with and he'd still be here to teach us why taking biscuits without asking is wrong, the way he left us now we can still go on taking biscuits (even though we know its wrong) and never be punished for it because dad paid our punishment. Do you see how stupid it is?

Are you telling me the all knowing, all powerful creator of the universe couldn't come up with another way to forgive without killing himself to save us from him having to carry out the punishment on us in which HE decided in the first place?

Well, what would you do as a dad? What would be more 'plausible' to you?

1over137 wrote:

outlaw wrote:I'm Australian too I live on the sunshine coast, yes I also have children, 3 boys, my wife is a ministers daughter.
I have read that story before too and I'm assuming that's your analogy for gods salvation plan and I don't find it all that noble in fact I find it rather idiotic here's why.
If I made a rule that any of my kids caught taking a biscuit without asking the penalty would be death, then one of my kids takes a biscuit the next day so the family gather around wondering what's going to happen, then I tell them because I love my son and even though he broke my rule I've decided to kill myself instead, then all of my children can go on taking biscuits but will escape punishment because my death paid it.
Later on one of my kids would say wow dad is such a hero for not killing Coby and instead killing himself, but then my older more logical thinking son would say, hang on wasn't it DAD who made the rule in the first place? Dads an idiot he killed himself for nothing all he had to do was make the punishment for taking biscuits something else to begin with and he'd still be here to teach us why taking biscuits without asking is wrong, the way he left us now we can still go on taking biscuits (even though we know its wrong) and never be punished for it because dad paid our punishment. Do you see how stupid it is?

Are you telling me the all knowing, all powerful creator of the universe couldn't come up with another way to forgive without killing himself to save us from him having to carry out the punishment on us in which HE decided in the first place?

Well, what would you do as a dad? What would be more 'plausible' to you?

No your absolutely right what was I thinking I couldn't possibly think of a better way to forgive than to go ahead and sacrifice myself I mean nothings more effective to teach someone than a human sacrifice.
Are you f ing serious??
No your right worshiping your abusive spouse for not abusing you is perfectly normal.
Nothing says love like killing yourself instead of having to carry out the punishment which you decide in the first place.

I'll ask these questions again since no one seems to want to attempt an answer.

If your child did something wrong at school would you allow another child to voluntarily except your child's punishment?

If not, why is OK for you to allow Jesus to voluntarily except your punishment so you can get a free ride to heaven?

Why do you expect your children to step up to their responsibilies and yet yourself do the opposite and hide behind a scapegoat?

outlaw wrote:...Your totally missing the point, if sin is breaking gods law and this sin is explained in a book then you firstly need to prove that the book is anything more than a ancient collection of stories and secondly prove that the God spoken about in the book is anything more than a chatracter in the book, without useing the bible to prove the bible. Unless you can do that then why would anyone care if they broke a law of a character in a book?

Why cant anyone answer questions ill try again.

Before you'd read a page of the Bible or heard a single word spoken about what sin is did you think you were a sinner?

We were all born without beliefs in any gods how do you go on to believe that your breaking a gods law?

No I have not, you are putting God ontrial, demand him that he can't speak, tell us not to use the bible, forbid who you accuse to present evidence - how is that justice? You see, it has been proven that you sin because you are not just, fair, but only have an ax to grind.

Outlaw - Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA) is not the only doctrine on the atonement of Christ there is. That in fact PSA is a later addition derived from Anselm of Canterbury's Satisfaction theory and later added to by St Augustine who built this theory upon a faulty Latin Translation of Romans 5:12. This in turn spread into much of Protestant Churches and is what you are attempting to use to convict and sentence Christians to death - their faith. In this, your debate is built upon falsehood of the type and kind God hates, Proverbs 6:16-19.

http://www.theopedia.com/Satisfaction_t ... _atonement

You mention with contempt that sin is a only a violation of law yet you have no clue what law is violated. Is it the Ten Commandments? Answer is no. So what is it - it is the law of Love and in that, you also break as you do not love God, nor can anyone, unless this is dealt with by what Jesus demonstrated by his life, by his betrayal, by his rejection,by him being beaten and placed on trial for death as explained in my long post on page one. It is we who cannot love God or each other and need a total makeover to learn how thru the real atoning work of Jesus Christ. God paid a ransom price to you - outlaw - and me and all who read this. So we can be drawn away from sin and into the newness of life. We were bought at a price as the bible teaches clearly 1 Co 6:20, Titus 2:14... So Outlaw Have courage and re-read my long post on page one again as Christ paid a ransom to you, reject that, then John 3:19,20,36 is your lot.

The cross put humanity on trial and by it, you have been convicted as guilty for not loving God or others as we all have been. From that, we see our sin and throw ourselves upon God's mercy through the blood of Christ poured out for us and are thus born again - resurrected and sealed into new life of learning to love God and each other till the day we return to God and are perfected in this. You do not love us but rather choose to hate and demand the death of faith based upon a lie which you believe is a true cause. Yet you fail to see that in this, you break the law that fulfills all law - Loving God with all thy being and your neighbor as yourself proven in writing by your assertions and accusations here on this forum. You hate God and us and thus are guilty of what sin is all about. You know nothing but theories on Satisfaction and later PSA which was built upon a faulty Latin translation of Romans 5:12 by Augustine.

outlaw wrote:I'll ask these questions again since no one seems to want to attempt an answer.

If your child did something wrong at school would you allow another child to voluntarily except your child's punishment?

If not, why is OK for you to allow Jesus to voluntarily except your punishment so you can get a free ride to heaven?

Why do you expect your children to step up to their responsibilies and yet yourself do the opposite and hide behind a scapegoat?

...Why is it so hard for any of you answer simple questions? My father in law is a retired Lutheran pastor he does the same thing, im also asking the same questions to a chaplain via email he's doing the same thing, i just recently joined another christian forum and im getting the same there also its really frustrating.

Do i have to ask them all again?

Firstly you need to realise that quoting the Bible is as useful as quoting a Harry Potter book to try and convince me Harry Potter exists, don't waste your time with it, unless you can firstly prove the bible is anything more than an ancient story. Just so you know where im coming from if i was to start throwing verses at you from the Tipitaka (Sacred book of buddism) are you going to really care about what it says? are you going to believe in budda? because in that book it CLAIMS budda spoke those words, so what reason do you have to not believe that? Why do you believe the same when its CLAIMED in the bible?

Buddists CLAIM that believing in budda transforms their lives, provides meaning, makes them better people etc all the same things christians claim about their god. it seems it doesnt really matter what god you follow they all seem to work for the people that follow them (funny that since they all claim that their following the ONE TRUE god) so if you can get the same results following Budda why don't you? It wouldnt have anything to do with your geographic location or what religion was most accessable to you at the time you were searching or what version of afterlife appeals to you more would it?
Before you reply to these questions can you first address my first ones or things could get confusing.

A man put on trial and not permitted to use his testimony to prove his own innocence but rather have the prosecution misconstrue the man’s own words to prove him guilty of a crime he never committed is unjust. Yet, is that not what you are doing outlaw? Prove sin – it has, and in you.

outlaw wrote: Um you see this is the problem, you havent explained how the plan actually works, loving and trusting i would think would come after finding out how his Salvation plan works first. If anyone could explain how the salvation plan works then maybe i could begin to trust this plan, I need to know how the plan works before i put my faith in the person executing it. If you went around putting your trust in everybody without first sussing them out i dont think things would work out too well for you.

Read my Long post on page one, it is there...

outlaw wrote: Why are you assuming I'm angry at god I get the same comment from everyone I ask these questions to, I'm simply trying to figure out his plan for salvation that's it everyone seems to be able to tell me how it doesn't work but no one seems to be able to explain it in a way that makes sense and I emphasize makes sense.

Easy by what you wrote as it reveals this plainly...

outlaw wrote:So if god made the rule and then sacrificed his son/self to save us from it why are people worshiping god? When all its doing is sparing us from the consequence of a rule in which god made? It's exactly like worshiping your friend who makes it a rule that if you eat chocolate they will cut your fingers off, but they then decide to spare your fingers by killing one of your other innocent friends, this is crazy right? It's worshiping someone for not beating you up, It's god cutting you so he can give you a bandaid and then expecting to be worshiped when your wound heals. Is it not?

...We only sin if you already have the preconceived notion that a god exists in the first place.If god makes the rule than sin is punished by death then creates us unable to avoid sin then decides to kill itsself/son in order to forgive us from it then thats just crazy not love.

God threw himself in front of death to spare us the punishment that GOD himself was going to dish out thats not love.
Who was jesus sacrificed to? who did the sacrifice appease? Jesus was sacrificed to save us from the consequence of sin, God/jesus chose what the consequence of sin would be, therefore god sacrificed jesus to save himself from having to follow through with his own rule. Makes so much sense.

If god creates the game, the rules, and all the players, if its omniscient, omnipotent why does he then get any praise for bending any its rules for the players?

If god can create a heaven presumably a place free of suffering, where we have freewill but never feel the need to do bad things then why not just create us in that place to begin with if it truely loved us and wanted us with it in heaven?

The fact that it didnt but had the ability to means its responsible for every bit of suffering in this world.

If god can make it a rule than only humans with free will can be happy then he could of also made it a rule that only robots can be happy and then created us unable to sin and made us so we think were choosing freely. He is all powerful right? this wouldn't be beyond him.

If your child did something wrong at school would you allow another child to be punished instead?

if you answered no because it would be immoral then you understand the morality of the question, then why is it you'd expect your children to step up to their responsibilities while at the same time not stepping up to your own?

Why is it ok for you to ride freely to heaven on the death of jesus? Do as i say not as i do, Why the double standard?
Why do you willfully choose to make humans diseased and flawed in your mind (inherrited sin) just so that you can think and feel as though your saved? Saved from what/who?

If you had the power of god could you forgive without having to kill anyone?

...So if god made the rule and then sacrificed his son/self to save us from it why are people worshiping god? When all its doing is sparing us from the consequence of a rule in which god made? It's exactly like worshiping your friend who makes it a rule that if you eat chocolate they will cut your fingers off, but they then decide to spare your fingers by killing one of your other innocent friends, this is crazy right? It's worshiping someone for not beating you up, It's god cutting you so he can give you a bandaid and then expecting to be worshiped when your wound heals. Is it not?

Do you always try to avoid having to answer questions by asking questions instead?
It would be nice to get some answers.

Providing the definition of sin is besides the point but I will anyway, sin is breaking gods law.

Now I'll explain why defining sin is useless, I always hear the following 'we all sin' what you fail to realise is that sin only means something inside the boundaries of religion. You have to first prove god exists before you can go worrying about what will happen if you break any of his laws. You need to understand that sin is something you were taught, sin is a man made concept to make you think there's something inherently wrong with you, to make you feel irrational guilt and therefore feel you need saving, Christianity is selling you a cure you don't need for a disease you don't and never did have. Ask yourself, before you'd read a page of the Bible or heard a single word spoken about what sin is did you think you were a sinner? Yeah we do wrong things but we need forgiveness from each other not from an intangible invisible sky daddy. Thinking that god has forgiven you only makes you feel better not the person you wronged. We were all born without beliefs in any gods how do you go on to believe that your breaking a gods law? Is it because you felt guilty after reading in the christian book of mythology all about how Jesus died for you and then thought 'well I must be, he wouldn't of done that for nothing'.

Prove sin! the bible makes the claim that we're all sinners, prove it without using the bible to back up itself? Prove it without already proving that god exists. Until you do, the word sin holds no meaning at all, so you can choose to believe your a sinner but your only doing it because you like the feeling of thinking your pardoned and the idea of praising a god for it.
In answering these, you may find Melanie's response valid and yours a bit out of tune.

From this, you cannot see that you are angry at God and us?
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I think some people have been a little harsh on here. As to God's existence, have you read some of the articles on the main website? Some pretty interesting stuff - I've just been reading one on the extreme unlikeliness of the existence of the universe, due to all the forces, reactions and so on which have had to have been exactly the strengths that they are or the universe could not have been as it is and life could not exist. Unlikely without God, that is.

People's experience of faith and salvation probably varies, but for me I grew up believing in God, even though I wasn't really in a Christian home but just got taken to church for a few years or so. When I was about 12 I found out about the Bible's salvation plan and put my trust in Jesus - before that I wanted to do what God said to do but I wasn't really aware of being a sinner as such. However, when I did give my life to God, accepting his salvation etc, he made a couple of big changes in me to do with wrong things I was doing; suddenly I felt bad about them and stopped doing them! Now I want to find out more about the physical evidence for God and the Bible, which is why I'm on this site

I think it's not seeing the whole picture to view death/hell as God's punishment for sin. Sin separates us from God - basically because he is perfect and we're not. We can never make ourselves perfect, so in that way we can't step up to our responsibilities. Hell in the Bible isn't the devil's domain but the consequence for his rejection of God; now those who reject God and what they know of what he says basically put themselves on the devil's side and condemn themselves. It's not about committing particular sins as such but the attitude we have towards God; if we want to be apart from God then we can be forever. But the Bible says that God wants everyone to be saved (not that everyone or even most people will be however, because we tend to want to do our own thing), that he wants to give us every chance and that he's just - I guess that he will judge people justly based on the knowledge they had of him. Having said that we can't step up to our responsibilities - we can't save ourselves but God wants to help us do what's right when we let him, and most Christians really want to do what's right, since God loves us and knows what's best.

I hope that's some help to you even though it's based on the Bible On the main site are articles about evidence for the Bible (as opposed to other books) as well, for example to do with Jesus' resurrection.

outlaw wrote:

1over137 wrote:

outlaw wrote:I'm Australian too I live on the sunshine coast, yes I also have children, 3 boys, my wife is a ministers daughter.
I have read that story before too and I'm assuming that's your analogy for gods salvation plan and I don't find it all that noble in fact I find it rather idiotic here's why.
If I made a rule that any of my kids caught taking a biscuit without asking the penalty would be death, then one of my kids takes a biscuit the next day so the family gather around wondering what's going to happen, then I tell them because I love my son and even though he broke my rule I've decided to kill myself instead, then all of my children can go on taking biscuits but will escape punishment because my death paid it.
Later on one of my kids would say wow dad is such a hero for not killing Coby and instead killing himself, but then my older more logical thinking son would say, hang on wasn't it DAD who made the rule in the first place? Dads an idiot he killed himself for nothing all he had to do was make the punishment for taking biscuits something else to begin with and he'd still be here to teach us why taking biscuits without asking is wrong, the way he left us now we can still go on taking biscuits (even though we know its wrong) and never be punished for it because dad paid our punishment. Do you see how stupid it is?

Are you telling me the all knowing, all powerful creator of the universe couldn't come up with another way to forgive without killing himself to save us from him having to carry out the punishment on us in which HE decided in the first place?

Well, what would you do as a dad? What would be more 'plausible' to you?

No your absolutely right what was I thinking I couldn't possibly think of a better way to forgive than to go ahead and sacrifice myself I mean nothings more effective to teach someone than a human sacrifice.
Are you f ing serious??
No your right worshiping your abusive spouse for not abusing you is perfectly normal.
Nothing says love like killing yourself instead of having to carry out the punishment which you decide in the first place.

God is not only loving, he is also righteous
http://www.gotquestions.org/why-Jesus-die.html

It is probably an emotional topic for you, as it seems from your burst.

Let us stick with your example and remake it little bit.

The biscuits are poisoned and every time you eat it you are closer to death. So, you say to your children not to eat it. But they decide to take it, as it has a chocolate topping on it and it really looks very tasteful. So, they do not listen to you. They do not believe you, they do not believe you want the best for them. Instead, they want to exercise their free will and eat it.

Next day you discover what they have done. You are angry. You wanted the best for them, you cared for them, yet they broke your rule, they distanced from you.

You are righteous. You do not wish to let it go unpunished. No punishment would lead to no rules. No rules would lead to your children doing whatever bad things they will to do.

But you love your children. You love your creation. You wish to preserve it. You do not wish your creation to destroy itself and you do not yourself wish to destroy it. So you offer yourself as a sacrifice. But you do not kill yourself. Your children do that. For three days.
By that you show how spoiled they are, how far they distanced from you and in what a need they are to be restored. Those children that believe this will be slowly restored and will understand not to take biscuits anymore. Those children that stay blind to their needs will stay away from their father. And the staying away from the father is the death.

Another Aussie I will up in your neck of the woods in a few weeks, can't beat Queensland for a holiday!
I'm on the NSW South Coast, I can't wait for summer so I can get to the beach.
BW and nicki are right, and they have both spoken exactly what I was going to post to you next. When Jesus came to earth, He brought with Him a new covenant, not to do away with the old law, but to fulfil it. That means that His sacrifice no longer held us accountable under the Law, as BW said the new law, the only law that we need to abide under is the law of love. Love God and love each other. That means that nobody is punished for stealing anything, a biscuit, a car, millions of dollars, nobody is punished for lying, adultery, or even murder, likewise nobody makes it into the Kingdom of Heaven because they haven't. It is separation from God, a separation that the individual makes a conscious decision to do. Quite often by their words, people mock God constantly and definitely by their actions. We live in a society where you can't say anything negative publicly about anything or anyone or else the political correctness police come out in full force but when it comes to God it's open slather, especially the Christian God, you see it in movies, music, TV shows, many cartoons, comedians, general conversation between individuals. Most people want no part of a relationship with God. They have turned their back and walked away. It's not that people are sinners that divide them from God, the best Christians are still sinners, it's because they have no love for God, they accuse Him falsely and slander His name.
True story. Not so long ago I was having a bit of a get together, BBQ at my house. I invited quite a few of my friends. Now there is this lady who doesn't like me, we have a few of the same friends, my best mate and her are quite close. She has said some horrible things about me, she doesn't know me, I have never done anything wrong to her but always been nice and polite. I asked my good friend 'what is her problem, have I offended her? why does she not like me to the point of saying this crap about me that isn't even true" my friend said "no Mel, you haven't done anything to her, I have tried to tell her the things she says about you is not how you are at all, and if she got to know you she would see that, but she doesn't really listen" So anyway, I'm told, not by her, that she wants an invite and would like to come to my 'gathering'. I am kind and nice but not an idiot or a pushover, and I said no. Now I am not going to invite someone into my home, who doesn't like me, slanders my name, speaks falsely against me, all without ever giving me the opportunity to prove otherwise. She didn't want to come because she wanted my company, she just didn't want to miss out.
The Kingdom of Heaven is the 'home' of Jesus and The Father and those people who love Him. They want to be there. I hope I don't die for many years but when I do I'm going to be one happy girl, I can't wait, not because I have escaped 'hell' but because I love God, I look forward so much to being in His presence, to me it's going home.
And that is why I will be there.
Not because I don't sin, I'm no angel, but because I love My Father and Jesus with all my heart.
Those that do not make it, it's nothing to do with sinning, it's because they do not like God, they speak falsely against Him, they slander His name and they do not want to be in His company.

B. W. wrote:

outlaw wrote:...Your totally missing the point, if sin is breaking gods law and this sin is explained in a book then you firstly need to prove that the book is anything more than a ancient collection of stories and secondly prove that the God spoken about in the book is anything more than a chatracter in the book, without useing the bible to prove the bible. Unless you can do that then why would anyone care if they broke a law of a character in a book?

Why cant anyone answer questions ill try again.

Before you'd read a page of the Bible or heard a single word spoken about what sin is did you think you were a sinner?

We were all born without beliefs in any gods how do you go on to believe that your breaking a gods law?

No I have not, you are putting God ontrial, demand him that he can't speak, tell us not to use the bible, forbid who you accuse to present evidence - how is that justice? You see, it has been proven that you sin because you are not just, fair, but only have an ax to grind.

Outlaw - Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA) is not the only doctrine on the atonement of Christ there is. That in fact PSA is a later addition derived from Anselm of Canterbury's Satisfaction theory and later added to by St Augustine who built this theory upon a faulty Latin Translation of Romans 5:12. This in turn spread into much of Protestant Churches and is what you are attempting to use to convict and sentence Christians to death - their faith. In this, your debate is built upon falsehood of the type and kind God hates, Proverbs 6:16-19.

http://www.theopedia.com/Satisfaction_t ... _atonement

You mention with contempt that sin is a only a violation of law yet you have no clue what law is violated. Is it the Ten Commandments? Answer is no. So what is it - it is the law of Love and in that, you also break as you do not love God, nor can anyone, unless this is dealt with by what Jesus demonstrated by his life, by his betrayal, by his rejection,by him being beaten and placed on trial for death as explained in my long post on page one. It is we who cannot love God or each other and need a total makeover to learn how thru the real atoning work of Jesus Christ. God paid a ransom price to you - outlaw - and me and all who read this. So we can be drawn away from sin and into the newness of life. We were bought at a price as the bible teaches clearly 1 Co 6:20, Titus 2:14... So Outlaw Have courage and re-read my long post on page one again as Christ paid a ransom to you, reject that, then John 3:19,20,36 is your lot.

The cross put humanity on trial and by it, you have been convicted as guilty for not loving God or others as we all have been. From that, we see our sin and throw ourselves upon God's mercy through the blood of Christ poured out for us and are thus born again - resurrected and sealed into new life of learning to love God and each other till the day we return to God and are perfected in this. You do not love us but rather choose to hate and demand the death of faith based upon a lie which you believe is a true cause. Yet you fail to see that in this, you break the law that fulfills all law - Loving God with all thy being and your neighbor as yourself proven in writing by your assertions and accusations here on this forum. You hate God and us and thus are guilty of what sin is all about. You know nothing but theories on Satisfaction and later PSA which was built upon a faulty Latin translation of Romans 5:12 by Augustine.

outlaw wrote:I'll ask these questions again since no one seems to want to attempt an answer.

If your child did something wrong at school would you allow another child to voluntarily except your child's punishment?

If not, why is OK for you to allow Jesus to voluntarily except your punishment so you can get a free ride to heaven?

Why do you expect your children to step up to their responsibilies and yet yourself do the opposite and hide behind a scapegoat?

...Why is it so hard for any of you answer simple questions? My father in law is a retired Lutheran pastor he does the same thing, im also asking the same questions to a chaplain via email he's doing the same thing, i just recently joined another christian forum and im getting the same there also its really frustrating.

Do i have to ask them all again?

Firstly you need to realise that quoting the Bible is as useful as quoting a Harry Potter book to try and convince me Harry Potter exists, don't waste your time with it, unless you can firstly prove the bible is anything more than an ancient story. Just so you know where im coming from if i was to start throwing verses at you from the Tipitaka (Sacred book of buddism) are you going to really care about what it says? are you going to believe in budda? because in that book it CLAIMS budda spoke those words, so what reason do you have to not believe that? Why do you believe the same when its CLAIMED in the bible?

Buddists CLAIM that believing in budda transforms their lives, provides meaning, makes them better people etc all the same things christians claim about their god. it seems it doesnt really matter what god you follow they all seem to work for the people that follow them (funny that since they all claim that their following the ONE TRUE god) so if you can get the same results following Budda why don't you? It wouldnt have anything to do with your geographic location or what religion was most accessable to you at the time you were searching or what version of afterlife appeals to you more would it?
Before you reply to these questions can you first address my first ones or things could get confusing.

A man put on trial and not permitted to use his testimony to prove his own innocence but rather have the prosecution misconstrue the man’s own words to prove him guilty of a crime he never committed is unjust. Yet, is that not what you are doing outlaw? Prove sin – it has, and in you.

outlaw wrote: Um you see this is the problem, you havent explained how the plan actually works, loving and trusting i would think would come after finding out how his Salvation plan works first. If anyone could explain how the salvation plan works then maybe i could begin to trust this plan, I need to know how the plan works before i put my faith in the person executing it. If you went around putting your trust in everybody without first sussing them out i dont think things would work out too well for you.

Read my Long post on page one, it is there...

outlaw wrote: Why are you assuming I'm angry at god I get the same comment from everyone I ask these questions to, I'm simply trying to figure out his plan for salvation that's it everyone seems to be able to tell me how it doesn't work but no one seems to be able to explain it in a way that makes sense and I emphasize makes sense.

Easy by what you wrote as it reveals this plainly...

outlaw wrote:So if god made the rule and then sacrificed his son/self to save us from it why are people worshiping god? When all its doing is sparing us from the consequence of a rule in which god made? It's exactly like worshiping your friend who makes it a rule that if you eat chocolate they will cut your fingers off, but they then decide to spare your fingers by killing one of your other innocent friends, this is crazy right? It's worshiping someone for not beating you up, It's god cutting you so he can give you a bandaid and then expecting to be worshiped when your wound heals. Is it not?

...We only sin if you already have the preconceived notion that a god exists in the first place.If god makes the rule than sin is punished by death then creates us unable to avoid sin then decides to kill itsself/son in order to forgive us from it then thats just crazy not love.

God threw himself in front of death to spare us the punishment that GOD himself was going to dish out thats not love.
Who was jesus sacrificed to? who did the sacrifice appease? Jesus was sacrificed to save us from the consequence of sin, God/jesus chose what the consequence of sin would be, therefore god sacrificed jesus to save himself from having to follow through with his own rule. Makes so much sense.

If god creates the game, the rules, and all the players, if its omniscient, omnipotent why does he then get any praise for bending any its rules for the players?

If god can create a heaven presumably a place free of suffering, where we have freewill but never feel the need to do bad things then why not just create us in that place to begin with if it truely loved us and wanted us with it in heaven?

The fact that it didnt but had the ability to means its responsible for every bit of suffering in this world.

If god can make it a rule than only humans with free will can be happy then he could of also made it a rule that only robots can be happy and then created us unable to sin and made us so we think were choosing freely. He is all powerful right? this wouldn't be beyond him.

If your child did something wrong at school would you allow another child to be punished instead?

if you answered no because it would be immoral then you understand the morality of the question, then why is it you'd expect your children to step up to their responsibilities while at the same time not stepping up to your own?

Why is it ok for you to ride freely to heaven on the death of jesus? Do as i say not as i do, Why the double standard?
Why do you willfully choose to make humans diseased and flawed in your mind (inherrited sin) just so that you can think and feel as though your saved? Saved from what/who?

If you had the power of god could you forgive without having to kill anyone?

...So if god made the rule and then sacrificed his son/self to save us from it why are people worshiping god? When all its doing is sparing us from the consequence of a rule in which god made? It's exactly like worshiping your friend who makes it a rule that if you eat chocolate they will cut your fingers off, but they then decide to spare your fingers by killing one of your other innocent friends, this is crazy right? It's worshiping someone for not beating you up, It's god cutting you so he can give you a bandaid and then expecting to be worshiped when your wound heals. Is it not?

Do you always try to avoid having to answer questions by asking questions instead?
It would be nice to get some answers.

Providing the definition of sin is besides the point but I will anyway, sin is breaking gods law.

Now I'll explain why defining sin is useless, I always hear the following 'we all sin' what you fail to realise is that sin only means something inside the boundaries of religion. You have to first prove god exists before you can go worrying about what will happen if you break any of his laws. You need to understand that sin is something you were taught, sin is a man made concept to make you think there's something inherently wrong with you, to make you feel irrational guilt and therefore feel you need saving, Christianity is selling you a cure you don't need for a disease you don't and never did have. Ask yourself, before you'd read a page of the Bible or heard a single word spoken about what sin is did you think you were a sinner? Yeah we do wrong things but we need forgiveness from each other not from an intangible invisible sky daddy. Thinking that god has forgiven you only makes you feel better not the person you wronged. We were all born without beliefs in any gods how do you go on to believe that your breaking a gods law? Is it because you felt guilty after reading in the christian book of mythology all about how Jesus died for you and then thought 'well I must be, he wouldn't of done that for nothing'.

Prove sin! the bible makes the claim that we're all sinners, prove it without using the bible to back up itself? Prove it without already proving that god exists. Until you do, the word sin holds no meaning at all, so you can choose to believe your a sinner but your only doing it because you like the feeling of thinking your pardoned and the idea of praising a god for it.
In answering these, you may find Melanie's response valid and yours a bit out of tune.

From this, you cannot see that you are angry at God and us?
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If god can make it a rule than only humans with free will can be happy then he could of also made it a rule that only robots can be happy and then created us unable to sin and made us so we think were choosing freely. He is all powerful right? this wouldn't be beyond him.

If your child did something wrong at school would you allow another child to be punished instead?

If you answered no because it would be immoral then you understand the morality of the question, then why is it you'd expect your children to step up to their responsibilities while at the same time not stepping up to your own?

Why is it ok for you to ride freely to heaven on the death of jesus? Do as i say not as i do, Why the double standard?
Why do you willfully choose to make humans diseased and flawed in your mind (inherrited sin) just so that you can think and feel as though your saved? Saved from what/who?

If you had the power of god, could you forgive without having to kill anyone?


Why do you go out of your way to avoid answering these questions?
Instead you try to turn the focus on me being angry at God, this isn't about me and if im angry at god or not is besides the point, stop trying to use red herrings to derail my main focus which is the plan of salvation or do you not believe god has saved you from your sin?

melanie wrote:Another Aussie I will up in your neck of the woods in a few weeks, can't beat Queensland for a holiday!
I'm on the NSW South Coast, I can't wait for summer so I can get to the beach.
BW and nicki are right, and they have both spoken exactly what I was going to post to you next. When Jesus came to earth, He brought with Him a new covenant, not to do away with the old law, but to fulfil it. That means that His sacrifice no longer held us accountable under the Law, as BW said the new law, the only law that we need to abide under is the law of love. Love God and love each other. That means that nobody is punished for stealing anything, a biscuit, a car, millions of dollars, nobody is punished for lying, adultery, or even murder, likewise nobody makes it into the Kingdom of Heaven because they haven't. It is separation from God, a separation that the individual makes a conscious decision to do. Quite often by their words, people mock God constantly and definitely by their actions. We live in a society where you can't say anything negative publicly about anything or anyone or else the political correctness police come out in full force but when it comes to God it's open slather, especially the Christian God, you see it in movies, music, TV shows, many cartoons, comedians, general conversation between individuals. Most people want no part of a relationship with God. They have turned their back and walked away. It's not that people are sinners that divide them from God, the best Christians are still sinners, it's because they have no love for God, they accuse Him falsely and slander His name.
True story. Not so long ago I was having a bit of a get together, BBQ at my house. I invited quite a few of my friends. Now there is this lady who doesn't like me, we have a few of the same friends, my best mate and her are quite close. She has said some horrible things about me, she doesn't know me, I have never done anything wrong to her but always been nice and polite. I asked my good friend 'what is her problem, have I offended her? why does she not like me to the point of saying this crap about me that isn't even true" my friend said "no Mel, you haven't done anything to her, I have tried to tell her the things she says about you is not how you are at all, and if she got to know you she would see that, but she doesn't really listen" So anyway, I'm told, not by her, that she wants an invite and would like to come to my 'gathering'. I am kind and nice but not an idiot or a pushover, and I said no. Now I am not going to invite someone into my home, who doesn't like me, slanders my name, speaks falsely against me, all without ever giving me the opportunity to prove otherwise. She didn't want to come because she wanted my company, she just didn't want to miss out.
The Kingdom of Heaven is the 'home' of Jesus and The Father and those people who love Him. They want to be there. I hope I don't die for many years but when I do I'm going to be one happy girl, I can't wait, not because I have escaped 'hell' but because I love God, I look forward so much to being in His presence, to me it's going home.
And that is why I will be there.
Not because I don't sin, I'm no angel, but because I love My Father and Jesus with all my heart.
Those that do not make it, it's nothing to do with sinning, it's because they do not like God, they speak falsely against Him, they slander His name and they do not want to be in His company.

God can't tollerate us sinning, it makes him mad right? So god makes a rule that death is the punishment for it right? But god loves us so god sacrifices jesus to pay the price so he doesnt have to punish us for sinning right? But Jesus is god right? So god sacrificed himself to himself so he didn't have to follow through with his own original rule and punish us right?

If any part of this is wrong can you add in the correct bit.

Outlaw,

In Genesis 2:17 the ancient Hebrew reads: "... but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will Die - Die."

English translated the first die as surely due to the usage in Hebrew to use a word twice to emphasize something important. Also, die or death is synonymous with what brings about ruin and decay in life. Also, in Hebrew of that era, words were used to paint a picture and connect the dots to a common theme. Therefore, the emphatic Die - Die or Die - death or death - death used implies several things.

First, it represents that through disobedience to God brings about ruin and decay to the paradise God has for humanity. We indeed bring ruin and decay to relationships, to each other, and even to ourselves. We bring destruction through selfishness and pettiness, and in this state one mortally dies and then …

...Connect the dots to Rev 20:11,12,13,14 as it mentions a second death where those found and proven by what they say and do produce ruin and decay are held to account and thus in that state remain. These folks produce ruin and decay in life, no amount of good can erase the rot they caused to themselves or others. They do hate God and ignore his overtures to save them from themselves to escape this second death. If allowed in heaven in this condition, these folks would seek to bring their rot into heaven. This God will not allow.

Outlaw, would you allow ISIS members into your home to live with your family, or robbers, swindlers, molesters, and those that hate you in your home forever? Have them bring their rot and decay to your family members and ruin your domain? These folks do not believe in you and only view you as an obstacle to their selfishness and sensuality. They seek your demise and do whatever to undermine your relationship with your family so they can kill you and those you care about after toying with you as a cat does a mouse. Why should God then do so for folks who hate him and seek to use his blessings and personality for their own gain in heaven?

However, with God, he sent Jesus forth to expose how we bring ruin and rot in life and wake up people to this fact that they cannot change unless God helps them. In this he is just, even to the unjust, by showing how he grants intelligent free moral reasoning to humanity and respects that, even to his own hurt at seeing what he created being made a place of rot and decay. His great love, reaches out to expose what sin really is by Jesus’ earthly life, his death on the cross, and resurrection.

It is normal for a little child to come running with arms opened wide to embrace their parents after not seeing them for a long time. This also occurs when spouses, are rejoined after a long absence due to military deployment. They run to each with open arms. God did that for us and what did humanity do with God’s embrace? We nailed him in a hugging position upon a cross. That is our rot and ruin which we turn all good into - kill it - die - die! Goodness is mocked, exploited, manipulated in various ways. Relationships sour, embraces grow cold, bitterness festers, sensuality replaces love, hubris exulted as normal, quid pro quo as the new rule for life... ruin and rot and decay result no matter how good we try to be.

You know, Outlaw, God desires to embrace you, welcoming you back to his household as his adopted child – but you drive those nails deeper instead. All he desires is for folks to see this, and ask to be forgiven for all the rot and ruin they brought into life and blaming God for their shortcomings. Then he will not leave you an orphan herein this life to flounder alone but will indwell within you by the warm embrace of Jesus’ Resurrection. Jesus rose from the dead so he can complete that divine hug of love that changes your and my life’s course. This brings life back into the world and from this we learn to walk away from what brings ruin and rot so others can escape that second death too that awaits.

Your life currently seeks to bring death, ruin, and rot to goodness you don’t approve of. You are headed to that second death and between these two deaths Jesus came to reconcile you back to where you belong, with him. Reject that, you will remain unchanged sealing your fate as that, ruin and decay is what you love more than all else.

Lastly, PSA is not the prima supremo rule for what Jesus accomplished and did upon the cross. That is a later addition once used to explore the substitutionary aspect of the cross. Christ died in our place as a means of rescue. Think of it, like someone tossing themselves on a grenade and saving your skin, or rescuing from an oncoming subway train by lifting you off the track and him taking the brunt of the trains impact instead of you. John 15 speaks of this. Jesus bore God’s wrath suspended upon the cross and that wrath was a death sentence to spare you and I from that second death. He died in our place to teach us how to really live free from producing ruin and decay by living within.

For that, you mock him, poke fun of this, and attempt to prove how cruel the Lord is. Yet, he jumped on that grenade for you and you have no appreciation of that act of love. So is it any wonder that God’s wrath hangs over you for all the ruin and decay you bring to goodness? Is it any wonder that he will reject all who show such like disdain toward his saving grace - Who seek to keep the nails fastened tightly driven in his hands and feet so they can relish in their ruin and decay?

Is that really you? You said prove sin, it has been in you by what you write without wisdom or thought here on this forum that proves you seek to bring ruin and rot to the goodness of others, yourself, and God. He jumped upon the track to save you from an onrushing train and took the impact meant for you and for that, you seek forever to find fault with him. That sir is the message of the cross and resurrection. It produces a choice when before you and I had none.

It is a simple message that puts a choice before you so one can freely decide if they desire to escape that second death they bring upon themselves, not God. Think of it, a mere choice put forth between you and God and for that you condemn him for providing a simple free choice as well as condemn him for not using forceful coercion instead. Amazing what death you seek to justify!

So the choice is before you - choose wisely.

B. W. Melvin
A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion
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outlaw wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:The issue of sin is a theological one.
Sin is defined in many ways but it is hard to have sin without the notion of God.
Sin is doing what is wrong KNOWING it is wrong.
Typically.
I say typically because doing something wrong not knowing it is wrong is STILL doing something wrong.
But is it a sin?

Well, here is the thing, God decides what is sin and isn't and The Laws was created to POINT to what sin was ( various laws for various TYPES of sin of course).

Knowing what is right and still doing what is wrong is the very essence of sin and it doesn't just have to be a violation of divine law because the reality is that we ALL know that there IS a right and wrong, a good and evil.
Sure people can debate WHAT IS right and wrong or good and evil BUT no on TRULY and HONESTLY debates that there IS right and wrong, that there IS good and evil.

So there IS sin because we ALL know that there IS good and evil, right an wrong.

I feel like I'm repeating myself but if the definition of sin is breaking gods laws then you first have to believe god exists before you care about breaking its laws.
Which comes first belief in god or believing your a sinner that needs saving?
Because why would you believe in god if you didn't first believe you were a sinner in need of saving?
But how can you believe your a sinner, without already believing in the thing who's laws your breaking?

Yes, one can say that IF sin is the breaking of God's laws ( and nothing else) then yes, the belief in God is needed to believe in sin.
The issue is that we KNOW there is a right and a wrong, we know this because we not only FEEL it, we KNOW it to be true ( genetic imprinting according to some).
Every culture, regardless of their belief in a God or not, KNEW/KNOWS that right and wrong exist ( though they may vary on WHAT IS right and wrong, they all agree that there IS right and wrong).

Sin is just a theological term for KNOWING what is right and wrong and DOING wrong.
I also believe that SIN covers far more than that, I believe it is the best term to description the WANT to do wrong, not just the ACT but the desire to do what is wrong.

So, while we need to believe in God to understand the term SIN, we do NOT need to believe in God to know what sin is.

Ah Outlaw, you have the same mentality as me lol, or as I used to. These people can't help you if you don't have a foundation. I just think about it this way, This Jesus fellow, had such a profound impact on mankind, that we all changed our calendars. Its 2014 A.D!!! lol If you think about it, something happened 2000 years ago that was so out of this world, that it changed it forever. Don't need the bible to tell you that. I used to tell myself, well once I'm dead i'm dead, I won't have to worry what religion was the real one, if any, because once I died, i'd either be suffering, reincarnated, or dead in the ground. That "what if" factor is what got me digging in the first place. I just look at the facts. In my head, there has to be a beginning to everything. Yet if this is the case, we shouldn't exist at all. But why doesn't my brain comprehend this? GOOD QUESTION. "In the beginning there was nothing, and then God said let there be light" We'll that fits in well with what we know as the Big Bang Theory which wasn't even around until a 100 years ago. Yet this book of stories told Humans that 1000s of years ago. None of the other religions seem to punish you for anything. Well crap, if i were around 2000 years ago and i was told this religion has a Hell option, I'd go look for another, yet for some reason this one stuck around. Why do these religions even exist in the first place? Well God has put the heart of eternity in all Men. Hence all these religions popping up for an afterlife scenario, so that we no longer mourn for the death of our loved ones and worry about our death. We have a saying on this earth. Take the easy left, or the hard right. Hardest religion to me seems to be the one with a death sentence on top of it. Now i will point out one thing from the Bible. It says that God wants us to use our reason. So my best advice to you, is use your own reason and knock out all the possibilities on your own. Jesus is God and God is Jesus. But its a trio. Jesus, the Father, and the Holy ghost. Just think of it this way, God sent his left leg down to earth. He had to use a piece of himself to save us from our Sin. How do we know if this bible is true in the first place? Like I said, our whole civilization basis their calenders off this fairy tale man named Jesus. And if you were there 2000 years ago, and saw how society was, this Christian practice would have been nicked in the butt by the Romans if there wasn't something more to it than just a story. AMEN brother!

PaulSacramento wrote:

outlaw wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:The issue of sin is a theological one.
Sin is defined in many ways but it is hard to have sin without the notion of God.
Sin is doing what is wrong KNOWING it is wrong.
Typically.
I say typically because doing something wrong not knowing it is wrong is STILL doing something wrong.
But is it a sin?

Well, here is the thing, God decides what is sin and isn't and The Laws was created to POINT to what sin was ( various laws for various TYPES of sin of course).

Knowing what is right and still doing what is wrong is the very essence of sin and it doesn't just have to be a violation of divine law because the reality is that we ALL know that there IS a right and wrong, a good and evil.
Sure people can debate WHAT IS right and wrong or good and evil BUT no on TRULY and HONESTLY debates that there IS right and wrong, that there IS good and evil.

So there IS sin because we ALL know that there IS good and evil, right an wrong.

I feel like I'm repeating myself but if the definition of sin is breaking gods laws then you first have to believe god exists before you care about breaking its laws.
Which comes first belief in god or believing your a sinner that needs saving?
Because why would you believe in god if you didn't first believe you were a sinner in need of saving?
But how can you believe your a sinner, without already believing in the thing who's laws your breaking?

Yes, one can say that IF sin is the breaking of God's laws ( and nothing else) then yes, the belief in God is needed to believe in sin.
The issue is that we KNOW there is a right and a wrong, we know this because we not only FEEL it, we KNOW it to be true ( genetic imprinting according to some).
Every culture, regardless of their belief in a God or not, KNEW/KNOWS that right and wrong exist ( though they may vary on WHAT IS right and wrong, they all agree that there IS right and wrong).

Sin is just a theological term for KNOWING what is right and wrong and DOING wrong.
I also believe that SIN covers far more than that, I believe it is the best term to description the WANT to do wrong, not just the ACT but the desire to do what is wrong.

So, while we need to believe in God to understand the term SIN, we do NOT need to believe in God to know what sin is.

No but you would first need KNOW god exists before you cared if your are a sinner or not. Theres a difference between knowing and believing, There's a difference between knowing what sin is and believing your a sinner.
I understand that god describes what sin is and i understand that what he describes it as is what people do in real life, but that deoesnt prove that god or sin exists, it proves that a book mentions human behaviours and labels them as sin thats it.
Unless you can prove the bible is anything more than a story book and that a character in the book is anything more than that, then who cares if we break this characters rules. I realise that yes we do break these rules but so what!!.

If willy wonka mentioned that stealing and lying were Kossing and he was sent to save you from your Koss, and we as humans realise that its a fact people do steal and lie would you then believe you were a kosser and willy wonka was your savior? If he then told you that he made a rule that getting drowned in the chocolate lake was punishment for kossing but he loved you and didnt want to drown you in his chocolate lake for kossing so instead he drowned an oompa loompa and said your now saved you from kossing, then said if you don't acknowledge he did this for you then you'll be seperated from him forever, would you worship willy wonka? Whether you believe in willy wonka or not your still a kosser, if you choose not to accept that he killed an oompa loompa for you then you'll suffer for an eternity by being separated from him.

If all of that sounds like absolute nonsense to you which it should, why does substituting the words willy wonka and oompa loopma for god and jesus make it any different?

Me as a flawed human acknowledge that i do most of the things that god would label as sin as everybody does, but just because a character in a book wants to call those things sin it doesnt mean anything to me at all, i just call them what they are and i'd be pretty silly to think that someone being killed could do anything at all to absolve me of them, of course i could choose to believe it can, and does, but merely believing that its true doesn't make it true.

The issue is that we KNOW there is a right and a wrong, we know this because we not only FEEL it, we KNOW it to be true ( genetic imprinting according to some).
Every culture, regardless of their belief in a God or not, KNEW/KNOWS that right and wrong exist ( though they may vary on WHAT IS right and wrong, they all agree that there IS right and wrong).

Where do you think you get your morals from? The Bible?

outlaw wrote:The issue is that we KNOW there is a right and a wrong, we know this because we not only FEEL it, we KNOW it to be true ( genetic imprinting according to some).
Every culture, regardless of their belief in a God or not, KNEW/KNOWS that right and wrong exist ( though they may vary on WHAT IS right and wrong, they all agree that there IS right and wrong).

Where do you think you get your morals from? The Bible?

Are you saying that morals are inherent in the nature of man?

What if that inherent morality was a temporary gift from God, so that men might search and find the Source of mercy and love?

I don't think morality would suit the survival of the fittest contest that evolution puts forward, here mercy is self defeat. Don't you think?
If you want to survive - you out-grow, or kill the competitor. Morality is about self sacrifice - the opposite to self preservation.
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