Evidence for God from Science

Stu wrote:
Well now it depends on which version of the Bible you use, as the King James Version says "depart".

It's still the same meaning. If "the faith" in the context of 1 Timothy, is proper teaching, then one is departing from proper teaching.

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Your edited response:

Well now it depends on which version of the Bible you use, as the King James Version says "depart". But even "falling away" from the faith means parting from the faith. Surely you can't "pay attention" to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, and still worship God as He intended.

Again, falling away or departing from the faith, means falling away from proper teaching.

And of course following doctrines of demons, keeps us from worshiping God as He intended. It hurts our relationship with God. But it doesn't affect our salvation.

Stu wrote: Yes if we keep the faith you will have eternal life.
But isn't that verse talking about eternal life in heaven?

But what's your take on the verse that I quoted if it's not what I said -- how would people "depart from the faith" then?

Here you are confusing faithfulness and faith.
You ask a good question as I think one of the biggest problems in these discussions is how people blur the lines between eternal life, heaven, and the Kingdom as well as between salvation and following Christ. This the product of sloppy hermeneutics that basically ignore the distinctions and divisions in the scripture we are instructed to observe. (2 Tim. 2:15)
This is evidenced in Mallz prooftext of Matthew 15:24. It does take works to follow Christ. So, what he is saying is to hell with right division. Just take anything in scripture and apply it without any regard to proper exegesis. Jesus said it, therefore you must apply it. So, go sell all you have and give to the poor to receive salvation. Uh wait.....? Don't for once consider that Jesus' earthly ministry was to Israel, regarding God's promises to make them a light to the nations. Ignore the fact that Paul never once mentions discipleship, or 'following' as explained by Jesus. And ignore the fact that Paul was hand picked to be the apostle to the Gentiles, not Peter or any of the 12.

Rick made a great point that has been ignored. How can someone receive something such as eternal life, and then lose it? If it sounds contradictory that's because it is. If I HAVE eternal life, then logically speaking there is nothing I can do to take it away. If so, then the promise of eternal life is really no promise at all. Eternal life isn't a gift but is a contract. If I do a,b,c, then and only then will I receive eternal life. And naturally, that means I don't HAVE it.

Here's the question: WHOSE salvation is it anyway? As WHO made possible, initiates, woos, enlightens, guides the entire process of unbelief all the way to salvation? IF GOD is the One who saves us and He has ALWAYS known precisely who HE would save, does He somehow supposedly "drop the ball" on a person's salvation? Did he make a mistake, initially saving someone but that it subsequently "did not take?" Are we saying that, for some, God just couldn't "get it in the end zone?" HARDLY! We must remember that the (edit) Creator, Originator and Completer of our salvation was NEVER us to begin with. And so, once truly saved, only HE could abandon us back to our old ways and doom! And it is a contradiction of Scripture - not to mention language - for Scripture to say we are saved to ETERNAL life, but for some that eternity ends on this miserable planet. Eternal life begins NOW! God applies it at the moment of salvation.

Only if GOD abandoned one He has saved, could salvation be lost. And let's not forget we are saved 1) while we are in the midst of our sins and, 2) while forgiven, will nonetheless continue to sin as long as we inhabit flesh. So some seem to be applying a works-based measuring stick to the question of one's salvation. Our salvation was complete and a CERTAINTY at the Cross! And it was ALWAYS known by God to be a certainty. There are those that APPEAR to be God's sheep that are eventually revealed to be impostors - let us not confuse this difference!

Philip wrote:Here's the question: WHOSE salvation is it anyway? As WHO made possible, initiates, woos, enlightens, guides the entire process of unbelief all the way to salvation? IF GOD is the One who saves us and He has ALWAYS known precisely who HE would save, does He somehow supposedly "drop the ball" on a person's salvation? Did he make a mistake, initially saving someone but that it subsequently "did not take?" Are we saying that, for some, God just couldn't "get it in the end zone?" HARDLY! We must remember that the owner of our salvation was NEVER us to begin with. and so, once truly saved, only HE could abandon us back to our old ways and doom! And it is a contradiction of Scripture - not to mention language - for Scripture to say we are saved to ETERNAL life, but for some that eternity ends on this miserable planet. Eternal life begins NOW! God applies it at the moment of salvation.

Only if GOD abandoned one He has saved, could salvation be lost. And let's not forget we are saved 1) while we are in the midst of our sins and, 2) while forgiven, will nonetheless continue to sin as long as we inhabit flesh. So some seem to be applying a works-based measuring stick to the question of one's salvation. Our salvation was complete and a CERTAINTY at the Cross! And it was ALWAYS known by God to be a certainty. There are those that APPEAR to be God's sheep that are eventually revealed to be impostors - let us not confuse this difference!

We are saying salvation and eternal life are the same, correct? While I agree with your conclusion, I'm not sure I understand something you said. Maybe you can clarify it for me. Eternal life/salvation is a gift from God. If we accept this gift, that means it's is ours, correct. Once we accept the gift, by trusting Christ, we now have eternal life. So it is OUR salvation. OUR eternal life.

What am I misunderstanding?

And the ball starts rolling...

We are saying salvation and eternal life are the same, correct? While I agree with your conclusion, I'm not sure I understand something you said. Maybe you can clarify it for me. Eternal life/salvation is a gift from God. If we accept this gift, that means it's is ours, correct. Once we accept the gift, by trusting Christ, we now have eternal life. So it is OUR salvation. OUR eternal life.

Yes, Rick, once the offered gift of salvation is RECEIVED, it is indeed ours. But it's original Owner who created it, secured it, began your understanding of it (and your need for it), and helped you to believe and accept it - in other words, Who both initiated and COMPLETED each Christian's savalation, is the Lord. And, of course, everyone has an opportunity to receive it or to reject it (it's not forced upon us or refused to those willing to believe). See my color edit (in my original post, above) for, hopefully, a bit better wording.

Philip wrote:

We are saying salvation and eternal life are the same, correct? While I agree with your conclusion, I'm not sure I understand something you said. Maybe you can clarify it for me. Eternal life/salvation is a gift from God. If we accept this gift, that means it's is ours, correct. Once we accept the gift, by trusting Christ, we now have eternal life. So it is OUR salvation. OUR eternal life.

Yes, Rick, once the offered gift of salvation is RECEIVED, it is indeed ours. But it's original Owner who created it, secured it, began your understanding of it (and your need for it), and helped you to believe and accept it - in other words, Who both initiated and COMPLETED each Christian's savalation, is the Lord. And, of course, everyone has an opportunity to receive it or to reject it (it's not forced upon us or refused to those willing to believe). See my color edit (in my original post, above) for, hopefully, a bit better wording.

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

I always assumed that we could change our minds - in the same way we're free to convert from unbelief or another religion to Christianity, we could change from a Christian to a non-Christian. Not that it would be a wise idea, but no longer having belief in Christian doctrines, we wouldn't believe we were now unsaved. Some friends introduced me to the idea of eternal security a few years ago, and having found since that quite a lot of Christians agree with it, I'm more open to the possibility. I still think, however, that it could be possible, having received eternal life to reject God and lose it - if we no longer have faith.

Nicki wrote:I always assumed that we could change our minds - in the same way we're free to convert from unbelief or another religion to Christianity, we could change from a Christian to a non-Christian. Not that it would be a wise idea, but no longer having belief in Christian doctrines, we wouldn't believe we were now unsaved. Some friends introduced me to the idea of eternal security a few years ago, and having found since that quite a lot of Christians agree with it, I'm more open to the possibility. I still think, however, that it could be possible, having received eternal life to reject God and lose it - if we no longer have faith.

Hi Nicki,

That seems to be a very common argument. Not actually losing salvation, but willfully giving it up by unbelief.

I guess the way I'd respond to that, would be that we don't gain salvation because we stop sinning. And we can't lose salvation because we sin. And unbelief is a sin.

But IMO, it really gets back to us crossing over from death to life, when we trust Christ for salvation. And when we trust Christ, the Holy Spirit indwells us.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

God keeps us secure in Christ. It's not our faithfulness that keeps us secure, it's His faithfulness. The indwelling Holy Spirit is God's guarantee, His promise that we have eternal life. It's His unconditional promise to keep us secure in Christ.

It's really amazing when I really think about it. It's all on Him. No matter how much I mess up...no matter how unfaithful I am...God is always faithful.

RickD wrote:

Nicki wrote:I always assumed that we could change our minds - in the same way we're free to convert from unbelief or another religion to Christianity, we could change from a Christian to a non-Christian. Not that it would be a wise idea, but no longer having belief in Christian doctrines, we wouldn't believe we were now unsaved. Some friends introduced me to the idea of eternal security a few years ago, and having found since that quite a lot of Christians agree with it, I'm more open to the possibility. I still think, however, that it could be possible, having received eternal life to reject God and lose it - if we no longer have faith.

Hi Nicki,

That seems to be a very common argument. Not actually losing salvation, but willfully giving it up by unbelief.

I guess the way I'd respond to that, would be that we don't gain salvation because we stop sinning. And we can't lose salvation because we sin. And unbelief is a sin.

But IMO, it really gets back to us crossing over from death to life, when we trust Christ for salvation. And when we trust Christ, the Holy Spirit indwells us.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

God keeps us secure in Christ. It's not our faithfulness that keeps us secure, it's His faithfulness. The indwelling Holy Spirit is God's guarantee, His promise that we have eternal life. It's His unconditional promise to keep us secure in Christ.

It's really amazing when I really think about it. It's all on Him. No matter how much I mess up...no matter how unfaithful I am...God is always faithful.

Even if we stop trusting in Christ?

Nicki wrote:
Even if we stop trusting in Christ?

The way I see it, is even if we stop trusting Christ, our salvation is still secure. Our relationship with God and others, will probably suffer though.

Maybe think of it this way...if we could sin some way that's bad enough to lose salvation, and to stop trusting is a sin, then the Holy Spirit would have to leave us. And God promised that He would never leave us nor forsake us. Remember, only God is faithful.

It just gets back to God's promise. Unconditional promise. He has sealed us!! Our faith is in Him!!

RickD wrote:

Nicki wrote:
Even if we stop trusting in Christ?

The way I see it, is even if we stop trusting Christ, our salvation is still secure. Our relationship with God and others, will probably suffer though.

Maybe think of it this way...if we could sin some way that's bad enough to lose salvation, and to stop trusting is a sin, then the Holy Spirit would have to leave us. And God promised that He would never leave us nor forsake us. Remember, only God is faithful.

It just gets back to God's promise. Unconditional promise. He has sealed us!! Our faith is in Him!!

Another way to look at this is that as born again sons and daughters of God, He will never reject us. That's His promise. So, while we may be sinful and become estranged from Him, He doesn't change, His love remains.

FL

Once you are saved, you will always be saved. We are born saved and then lose salvation when innocence is replaced by reason. Then we have the ability to choose for ourselves salvation or damnation. This is a choice that will be ever present and acutely important until our bodies expire. Our past is the accumulation of our present. Our future is our hope, and almost immediately our present. And presently we are always making choices that make up and express who we are. I see us walking on a narrow path. We are able to move off this path and are welcomed to come back. The presence of the New Testament is acutely important, throughout eternity. Whenever I 'hear' Jesus through His words, it is very much present. And being able to choose our path, changing from stumbling to hoping to damnation to salvation. But I don't want to get into scripture just yet. I'm thinking on my keyboard right now. So, one of the fundamental problems I have with OSAS, is that we are born saved. Then lose our salvation... I don't see a way around this without affirming total predestination. And I don't think that would be a characteristic from God. I don't see OSAS working in the level of reason.

Mallz wrote:
So, one of the fundamental problems I have with OSAS, is that we are born saved. Then lose our salvation...

What? Apparently you don't know what OSAS stands for. Once Saved Always Saved. Mallz, OSAS says one cannot lose salvation. Your OSAS is not OSAS. Were you sleeping when you wrote this?

First, satan and demons weren't offered the gift of salvation. Second, they don't "believe" in Christ. Believe in John 3:16, means to trust. As in trusting who Christ is, and what he has done, is sufficient for salvation.

Demons know who Jesus is. They cannot deny Him and recognize Him immediately. So John 3:16 has to mean more than knowing Jesus. To know someone means to believe in what they know to be true of them. Demons and satan believe because they know who Jesus is. But you're right, demons and satan weren't offered the gift of salvation, so their relationship to Jesus as far as belief is concerned doesn't save them. I don't see anything in John 3:16 addressing OSAS or hinting you are secure. I see it reasonable that since creations who were once saved eternally fell, there's more reason to see we can as well. All the fallen angels know El Shaddai (Thanks B.W. for the Old Testament review of God. Found my new favorite name ^_^) and they fell.

Discipleship is about active trust. Not salvation. Don't conflate the two.

I think you are right. I guess I see salvation and discipleship going hand in hand. How wouldn't it?