Evidence for God from Science

outlaw wrote:

UsagiTsukino wrote:Slavery in the modern slavery was much different than in the bible
. They were not forced into it

§ Forced enslavement of Hebrews was punishable by death.

"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death. " (Ex 21.16)
If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you. (Deut 24.7; cf. I Tim 1.10).

"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death. " (Ex 21.16)

This says nothing about slavery all it says is you can't kidnap someone, says nothing about buying someone.

Hey, can't you even read what's in your own quote?! It does speak about slavery! Just because the word Slavery isn't mentioned explicitly in one of the renditions, that doesn't mean that it doesn't talk about slavery! See the bolded portion.

At this point, either you were caught not paying attention, or you were just caught lying to our faces.

FlawedIntellect wrote:

outlaw wrote:

UsagiTsukino wrote:Slavery in the modern slavery was much different than in the bible
. They were not forced into it

§ Forced enslavement of Hebrews was punishable by death.

"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death. " (Ex 21.16)
If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you. (Deut 24.7; cf. I Tim 1.10).

"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death. " (Ex 21.16)

This says nothing about slavery all it says is you can't kidnap someone, says nothing about buying someone.

Hey, can't you even read what's in your own quote?! It does speak about slavery! Just because the word Slavery isn't mentioned explicitly in one of the renditions, that doesn't mean that it doesn't talk about slavery! See the bolded portion.

At this point, either you were caught not paying attention, or you were just caught lying to our faces.

Im talking about ex 21; 16 which mentions nothing about slaves.

"Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper's possession.

Doesn't say anything about buying a person only stealing a person, not ok to STEAL another persons slave, buying is fine.


How do you reconcile this?

exodus 21;20
20"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21"If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.…

outlaw wrote:
Just answer the question, are you ok with the fact that god gave these instructions to Israel for people to own people as property and beat them as long as they don't die? Yes or no, you either agree that this is an acceptable way to treat people or not, regardless of time period, social differences etc Yes or no

Outlaw,

Either you're not paying attention to what I'm writing, or you're just arguing for the sense of arguing. Either way, I'm losing patience talking to you. God didn't give the instructions to Israel for people to own people. Slavery was a way of life BEFORE God gave the laws to Israel to protect the slaves.

I am fine with the laws that God gave Israel. All 613 of the "ridiculous to us" commandments. It's not acceptable regardless of time and place. The laws were specifically for Israel. They have nothing to do with our laws today. We don't live in theocracies.

In their defense, if people sold themselves into slavery to pay off debt today, instead of filing bankruptcy and avoiding their debts, we'd have a much better country. Back then, that's how they paid their debt.

RickD wrote:

outlaw wrote:
Just answer the question, are you ok with the fact that god gave these instructions to Israel for people to own people as property and beat them as long as they don't die? Yes or no, you either agree that this is an acceptable way to treat people or not, regardless of time period, social differences etc Yes or no

Outlaw,

Either you're not paying attention to what I'm writing, or you're just arguing for the sense of arguing. Either way, I'm losing patience talking to you. God didn't give the instructions to Israel for people to own people. Slavery was a way of life BEFORE God gave the laws to Israel to protect the slaves.

I am fine with the laws that God gave Israel. All 613 of the "ridiculous to us" commandments. It's not acceptable regardless of time and place. The laws were specifically for Israel. They have nothing to do with our laws today. We don't live in theocracies.

In their defense, if people sold themselves into slavery to pay off debt today, instead of filing bankruptcy and avoiding their debts, we'd have a much better country. Back then, that's how they paid their debt.

exodus 21;20
20"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21"If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.…

Are these gods words? is the bible gods word or not?

Are you saying it was not acceptable back then for people to be treated this way? i just want to clarify what you meant

exodus 21:20-21
20"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21"If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.…

Are these gods words? is the bible gods word or not?

Those were God's rules. The bible is God's written word. Written by men as they were lead by the Holy Spirit.

Are you saying it was not acceptable back then for people to be treated this way? i just want to clarify what you meant

No, I didn't say that it was or wasn't acceptable. I'm just telling you how it was.

RickD wrote:

exodus 21:20-21
20"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21"If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.…

Are these gods words? is the bible gods word or not?

Those were God's rules. The bible is God's written word. Written by men as they were lead by the Holy Spirit.

Are you saying it was not acceptable back then for people to be treated this way? i just want to clarify what you meant

No, I didn't say that it was or wasn't acceptable. I'm just telling you how it was.

So is it acceptable to you that god gave rules to people back then in regards to keeping people as property and which included being punished only if they died immediately?
Are these rules for back then ok with you? Was it ok to treat people this way then?

outlaw wrote:

RickD wrote:

exodus 21:20-21
20"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21"If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.…

Are these gods words? is the bible gods word or not?

Those were God's rules. The bible is God's written word. Written by men as they were lead by the Holy Spirit.

Are you saying it was not acceptable back then for people to be treated this way? i just want to clarify what you meant

No, I didn't say that it was or wasn't acceptable. I'm just telling you how it was.

So is it acceptable to you that god gave rules to people back then in regards to keeping people as property and which included being punished only if they died immediately?
Are these rules for back then ok with you? Was it ok to treat people this way then?

Outlaw

I have been reading your posts and it is clear you have no intention responding to the answers people have been giving you. You have been suggested an excellent resource to answer yoru questions by Rick and yet you refuse to acknowledge it. You are a troll..

You are so typical of so many atheists on the web - whereby you just like to sprout of your superficial soundbites with no regard for context, of historicity. You just don't care - you just want to score points.

People on this forum have been very patient with you and have given you answers. The mods have been very patient with you and given you answers, and yet you continue to troll.

A permanent ban will be coming your way very soon. I am sure you will run off and tell you atheists friends how you stumped us poor Christians with your clever wit and questions - when the truth is much more depressing. We have given you answers, deep theological, historical answers and yet you ignore it all. I pity you. You are angry like so many other atheists I know, and yet you are angry at the wrong thing. I know you don't care about our prayers but I will pray for you as you are so much like my brother. My only hope is that you get that chip of your shoulder and actually do some reading, starting with the book Rick suggested. Then if you want a dialogue, then maybe we will have more respect for what you have to say.

Silvertusk wrote:

outlaw wrote:

RickD wrote:

exodus 21:20-21
20"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21"If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.…

Are these gods words? is the bible gods word or not?

Those were God's rules. The bible is God's written word. Written by men as they were lead by the Holy Spirit.

Are you saying it was not acceptable back then for people to be treated this way? i just want to clarify what you meant

No, I didn't say that it was or wasn't acceptable. I'm just telling you how it was.

So is it acceptable to you that god gave rules to people back then in regards to keeping people as property and which included being punished only if they died immediately?
Are these rules for back then ok with you? Was it ok to treat people this way then?

Outlaw

I have been reading your posts and it is clear you have no intention responding to the answers people have been giving you. You have been suggested an excellent resource to answer yoru questions by Rick and yet you refuse to acknowledge it. You are a troll..

You are so typical of so many atheists on the web - whereby you just like to sprout of your superficial soundbites with no regard for context, of historicity. You just don't care - you just want to score points.

People on this forum have been very patient with you and have given you answers. The mods have been very patient with you and given you answers, and yet you continue to troll.

A permanent ban will be coming your way very soon. I am sure you will run off and tell you atheists friends how you stumped us poor Christians with your clever wit and questions - when the truth is much more depressing. We have given you answers, deep theological, historical answers and yet you ignore it all. I pity you. You are angry like so many other atheists I know, and yet you are angry at the wrong thing. I know you don't care about our prayers but I will pray for you as you are so much like my brother. My only hope is that you get that chip of your shoulder and actually do some reading, starting with the book Rick suggested. Then if you want a dialogue, then maybe we will have more respect for what you have to say.

I also suggested a resource that has been refused, ill read yours if you read mine. That way we can understand where we are coming from.

I've read more than you will ever know over the last 2 years, you have no idea who i am or what i've read so spare me the books, because i think i've heard every apologist argument by now, if you've read this book your talking about and think you understand then explain.

In what context, in what time or place in human history is it ok to keep people as property, are you ok with god making a rule for people of those times that you can beat your slave and won't be punished as long as they don't die immediately?

Do you agree these are good rules to give the people back then?

Im not asking for an answer from the author of a book but if you have his or her email address ill ask them the same questions.
Im asking you!! i want your opinions but no one seems to want to give me their opinion, they just want to bag me for asking for it.

outlaw wrote:

Silvertusk wrote:

outlaw wrote:

RickD wrote:

exodus 21:20-21
20"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21"If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.…

Are these gods words? is the bible gods word or not?

Those were God's rules. The bible is God's written word. Written by men as they were lead by the Holy Spirit.

Are you saying it was not acceptable back then for people to be treated this way? i just want to clarify what you meant

No, I didn't say that it was or wasn't acceptable. I'm just telling you how it was.

So is it acceptable to you that god gave rules to people back then in regards to keeping people as property and which included being punished only if they died immediately?
Are these rules for back then ok with you? Was it ok to treat people this way then?

Outlaw

I have been reading your posts and it is clear you have no intention responding to the answers people have been giving you. You have been suggested an excellent resource to answer yoru questions by Rick and yet you refuse to acknowledge it. You are a troll..

You are so typical of so many atheists on the web - whereby you just like to sprout of your superficial soundbites with no regard for context, of historicity. You just don't care - you just want to score points.

People on this forum have been very patient with you and have given you answers. The mods have been very patient with you and given you answers, and yet you continue to troll.

A permanent ban will be coming your way very soon. I am sure you will run off and tell you atheists friends how you stumped us poor Christians with your clever wit and questions - when the truth is much more depressing. We have given you answers, deep theological, historical answers and yet you ignore it all. I pity you. You are angry like so many other atheists I know, and yet you are angry at the wrong thing. I know you don't care about our prayers but I will pray for you as you are so much like my brother. My only hope is that you get that chip of your shoulder and actually do some reading, starting with the book Rick suggested. Then if you want a dialogue, then maybe we will have more respect for what you have to say.

I also suggested a resource that has been refused, ill read yours if you read mine. That way we can understand where we are coming from.

I've read more than you will ever know over the last 2 years, you have no idea who i am or what i've read so spare me the books, because i think i've heard every apologist argument by now, if you've read this book your talking about and think you understand then explain.

In what context, in what time or place in human history is it ok to keep people as property, are you ok with god making a rule for people of those times that you can beat your slave and won't be punished as long as they don't die immediately?

Do you agree these are good rules to give the people back then?

Im not asking for an answer from the author of a book but if you have his or hers email address ill ask them the same questions.
Im asking you!! i want your opinions but no one seems to want to give me their opinion, they just want to bag me for asking it for it.

We can play this game all you like - we have given you answers.

I can give you my opinion - but I know how trolls work. If you are interested in contacting Paul Copan - then he can be found on the CAA (Christian Apologetics Alliance) on facebook. If you can join that then you can speak to him directly.

And you blantantly have not heard all the apologetic arguments because otherwise you would not be posting like you are now.

Let me ask you a question, and I will refuse to answer any of yours until you answer this: What is the real reason you you are on this forum. Is it to generally seek answers because you want to find God? Or is it so you can ridicule us believers by pointing out how ridiculous our beliefs are? What is your agenda here? Why do you care what we think if you have already made up you mind?

I've answered this question before but ill answer again, im seeking for someone to paint me a picture of their god, one that is consistent with what i read in the bible, because i could easily create my own version but if it contradicts the character in the bible then i might as well just throw the bible away, so ultimately i want to understand how you reconcile the problems i find in scripture, if that leads me to god.
The problem i keep finding is that i can't see how the tags that get put on god are justified, so if anyone can justify them i'm all ears but if i find problems with your justification i'm going to point them out, i'm not just going to swallow what you dish up, it has to hold water
The other snag is, i want 'your opinions' i want to know how you solve the roadblocks im experiencing, so referring a book to me doesn't help me because i'm not interested in the opinions of author of a book.
I get the same thing with my wife who is a Christian, i ask her what she thinks about something and she tells me to ask her dad (who is a retired pastor) i tell her "but i don't want your dads view i want yours".
I care what you think because i happen to share this planet with many people who think like you and i'd like to understand them as best i can.

outlaw wrote:I've answered this question before but ill answer again, im seeking for someone to paint me a picture of their god, one that is consistent with what i read in the bible, because i could easily create my own version but if it contradicts the character in the bible then i might as well just throw the bible away, so ultimately i want to understand how you reconcile the problems i find in scripture, if that leads me to god.
The problem i keep finding is that i can't see how the tags that get put on god are justified, so if anyone can justify them i'm all ears but if i find problems with your justification i'm going to point them out, i'm not just going to swallow what you dish up, it has to hold water
The other snag is, i want 'your opinions' i want to know how you solve the roadblocks im experiencing, so referring a book to me doesn't help me because i'm not interested in the opinions of author of a book.
I get the same thing with my wife who is a Christian, i ask her what she thinks about something and she tells me to ask her dad (who is a retired pastor) i tell her "but i don't want your dads view i want yours".
I care what you think because i happen to share this planet with many people who think like you and i'd like to understand them as best i can.

Thanks for that reply.

Well I share the opinion of Paul Copan. But here it is in a nutshell on the matter of slavery:

Slavery is bad - this is not God's will.
Slavery existed in Israel and also the surrounding countries.
This was a fact of society at the time and was embedded into it.
Abolishing it completely at the time would not have worked and would have cause more problems.
God established rules on how slaves should be treated so they are not mistreated.
Because of these rules Slavery in Israel became a way of people escaping destitution and poverty.
The rules that were applied allowed people in that situation to lead a much better life than the alternative and pay off their debts
After seven years of servitude they were allowed freedom.
A lot decided to stay with their masters as they were treated as part of the family and shown love.

Surrounding pagan cultures treated their slaves a lot worse.
Slavery today is a whole different way of treatment than it was in Israel and it is hundred times worse.

And because we know Slavery is not the will of God - Christians are leading the way to abolish modern slavery - "Stop the Traffic", "Hope for Justice" to name a couple.

As for specific verse about property Paul Copan has a very good answer for that which I remember agreeing with at the time - but I cannot recall what it was. I will have to go back to the book......or you can read it yourself

outlaw wrote:I've answered this question before but ill answer again, im seeking for someone to paint me a picture of their god, one that is consistent with what i read in the bible, because i could easily create my own version but if it contradicts the character in the bible then i might as well just throw the bible away, so ultimately i want to understand how you reconcile the problems i find in scripture, if that leads me to god.
The problem i keep finding is that i can't see how the tags that get put on god are justified, so if anyone can justify them i'm all ears but if i find problems with your justification i'm going to point them out, i'm not just going to swallow what you dish up, it has to hold water
The other snag is, i want 'your opinions' i want to know how you solve the roadblocks im experiencing, so referring a book to me doesn't help me because i'm not interested in the opinions of author of a book.
I get the same thing with my wife who is a Christian, i ask her what she thinks about something and she tells me to ask her dad (who is a retired pastor) i tell her "but i don't want your dads view i want yours".
I care what you think because i happen to share this planet with many people who think like you and i'd like to understand them as best i can.

if ultimately you want to understand, then you must humble yourself and not keep leaning solely on your own understanding

slavery exist in many forms, from the ugliness we all abhor
to the one we have very little understanding from Bible times
indentured servants existed all the way into the 13 colonies
it was sort of like a contract for the needy who had to sacrifice their freedom in the hope of a chance for a better life
times change and what once was a way of life, doesn't make much sense to us these days of new age thinking
i once read that back in the marco polo days, merchants traveled with an army to protect them from all dangers
and in their journeys, they would encamp in towns and villages
the leaders in these villages would lay down the red carpet for these traveling strong men with an army at their command
and these town and village leaders would go so far as to accommodate the merchants in their own homes and in their own beds
even allow them to bed down with their wives
all in the hope that these strong men would not bring harm to the village as a whole
how diff those times, and how diff were the necessities, not to mention the morality of the people

we think today as liberal theologians with certain freedoms and riches which we enjoy
but it has not always been the same for everyone in the past, and under diff history

the hardships we must endure, and the tears we must shed because of the fact that evil exist in the world, are heartbreaking
slavery exist in many shapes and forms
whether it is indentured slavery, involuntary slavery, plastic credit card slavery or blind allegiance slavery
it is slavery nevertheless

slavery comes in many forms, thus even atheism is a form of slavery


what are you a slave to, outlaw?

My God, the God who gave me sight, that God hates the slavery that you're talking about
but yet, you can't comprehend Him because you are not being open minded to what He says in scripture
you read as you want to understand

i implore of you to set aside your hard head and listen, hear and ponder on the words written in that book of love
you wont ever find better council than the word of God

First of all, the book I suggested and Rick offered to send is NOT merely the author's opinion, but is filled with understandings taken directly from Scripture. And the author is not just some opinionated member of the Christian choir, but is a highly respected scholar. His Scriptural illuminations along with his scholar's understandings of the meanings behind some of the misunderstood texts, his deep knowledge and research of the ancient cultural contexts - both in Israel and the surrounding pagan cultures - powerfully reveal God's actual patience, grace and motivations of His Holy character in dealing with stubborn, ignorant ancient men and entrenched culturally driven practices and sinful world views. And while God could have simply wiped out the people and cultures that were not His ideal, He mercifully tried to bring order and spiritual enlightenment to how human beings treated each other. Also, the author's scholarly understandings of the Bible's original languages - and of how they evolved over time - also shed light on things that might SEEM obvious to modern, English readers' eyes and ears, but that aren't - as they require more nuanced, qualified understandings.

In the introduction, he explains that his research also "carefully follows reputable scholars in Old Testament studies." And not all of the scholars he utilizes are Christians. Amongst scholars, his book "represents a broad general agreement on the main issues" he covers. Further, he states, "I am basing my work on thoughtful, credible scholarship that offers plausible, sober-minded explanations and angles that present helpful resolutions and respondes to perplexing Old Testament ethics questions."

I myself greatly wondered about some passages in the OT that always greatly disturbed me. For me, this book tremendously soothed and brought understanding to those issues. As there is some complexity to some of the most important points in the book, and as no one has the time to write their own book on this forum, I can't see why anyone sincerely interested in learning the truth about these issues wouldn't gratefully and gracefully accept Rick's offer to send the book. It's easy to instead just spam up the forum with ignorant posts.

outlaw wrote:
So is it acceptable to you that god gave rules to people back then in regards to keeping people as property and which included being punished only if they died immediately?
Are these rules for back then ok with you? Was it ok to treat people this way then?

Is it acceptable to me that God gave laws on the treatment of slaves? Yes, for the time and culture, it's acceptable to me. And they were to be punished life for a life, if the slave died right away from a beating. Go reread verse 21 again to see that if the slave didn't die immediately, there was still punishment. It just wasn't life for a life. Looking through modern glasses, it doesn't seem like a fair punishment to me. But modern glasses can be quite clouded.

*****Edit

Leviticus 20:9
If there is anyone who curses his father or his mother, he shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother, his bloodguiltiness is upon him.

That seems kinda harsh, looking through 21st century glasses, doesn't it?

The bible has many Laws, some cerimonial, some judicial.
Some are casual laws, laws that state if you do this, then this is your punishment.
Just like we do now.
These laws do NOT Condone, they are laws that apply to IF something is done, ex:
If you steal, you go to jail.
This does NOT condone theft.

Slavery was an accepted practice in the ANE, the very economical foundations of many civilizations were based on slavery ( not going into the discussion of the MANY different types of slavery because I assume that anyone talking about his has AT LEAST done that research).
God's Laws in regards to slavery were causal laws:
IF you have a slave, you must do ....