Evidence for God from Science

Audie wrote:...For me, faith is believing in something for which I do not have proof.
How much faith is needed relates to how much evidence I have

One of the tricky things in faith is confirmation bias. Young love seeing only perfection is an example. People in casinos have faith that they found a lucky slot machine.

Im not a psychologist, to talk about how these things work.

If I knew the slot machine was rigged in my favour, I wont need faith.

If I had proof of God, I would not need any faith to believe in Him.

If faith in God just about faith that He will ultimately be looking out for you, no matter how things look at the moment?

B. W. wrote:Thank you, now we have someplace to start.

I see that you hold to a similar line of reasoning in that faith is presumption without evidence.

Audie wrote:No, you misunderstood me. See... I said how much faith / how much evidence.

faith is believing in something for which I do not have proof.

How much faith is needed relates to how much evidence I have

Well, isn't that a presumption: How much faith is needed relates to how much evidence I have

Now it comes to this, what if the evidence is there but presumptions keeping you from seeing the evidence - have you thought of that?

Audie wrote:

B. W. wrote:Therefore, are you also no presuming that faith has no basis because it has has no evidence and therefore, faith is for the weak willed and feeble superstitious uneducated masses as you gave in your examples concerning slot machines etc.

Wrong premise and getting some really really wrong therefores!

I was giving illustration of how I used to be toward challenging Christian faith, my apologies if I was not clear enough on that matter as evidence for presumptions folks can make concerning Christian faith. Very happy you are not like that but... what you said can be taken that way also.

Audie wrote:

B. W. wrote:So you wrote this: If I had proof of God, I would not need any faith to believe in Him

Isn't that built upon presumption and presupposition?

Not really. If I had proof, then I'd believe, no faith needed. No scientific tests, no challenges, no doubts, no nothing, there He is.

Faith in this case might be the faith that he'd look out for me. Just coz He is there wont mean he is going to rescue me.

I am not sure what you are trying to say, however, again I see presumption and presupposition in your comment. Do you see that?

Audie wrote:

B. W. wrote:Whom and in what do you place your trust in?

I put different amounts of faith / trust in different people, things, institutions, as I see them I expect you do the same.

That is called natural faith and we all have this measure of faith. Therefore, you do have faith on this natural level and if on this natural level there is also a spiritual level. So faith exists and you have facts pointing to this, but you still will not believe in the evidence that God has set before you... due to presumption.

You trust the food stores will be stocked and everyone does their job in the degree of natural faith. Natural faith is necessary for humanity function. For example, a child trust mother and father to be there, but if this is thwarted, it is thwarted by human beings, faith is broken. Humanity broke the relational faith with God so we only have ourselves to have faith in. In that, I hear no one complain about.

So can you agree that you do have faith on the natural level - the same as all human beings share in common?
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B. W. wrote:

Audie wrote:...For me, faith is believing in something for which I do not have proof.
How much faith is needed relates to how much evidence I have

One of the tricky things in faith is confirmation bias. Young love seeing only perfection is an example. People in casinos have faith that they found a lucky slot machine.

Im not a psychologist, to talk about how these things work.

If I knew the slot machine was rigged in my favour, I wont need faith.

If I had proof of God, I would not need any faith to believe in Him.

If faith in God just about faith that He will ultimately be looking out for you, no matter how things look at the moment?

B. W. wrote:Thank you, now we have someplace to start.

I see that you hold to a similar line of reasoning in that faith is presumption without evidence.

Audie wrote:No, you misunderstood me. See... I said how much faith / how much evidence.

faith is believing in something for which I do not have proof.

How much faith is needed relates to how much evidence I have

Well, isn't that a presumption: How much faith is needed relates to how much evidence I have

Now it comes to this, what if the evidence is there but presumptions keeping you from seeing the evidence - have you thought of that?

Audie wrote:

B. W. wrote:Therefore, are you also no presuming that faith has no basis because it has has no evidence and therefore, faith is for the weak willed and feeble superstitious uneducated masses as you gave in your examples concerning slot machines etc.

Wrong premise and getting some really really wrong therefores!

I was giving illustration of how I used to be toward challenging Christian faith, my apologies if I was not clear enough on that matter as evidence for presumptions folks can make concerning Christian faith. Very happy you are not like that but... what you said can be taken that way also.

Audie wrote:

B. W. wrote:So you wrote this: If I had proof of God, I would not need any faith to believe in Him

Isn't that built upon presumption and presupposition?

Not really. If I had proof, then I'd believe, no faith needed. No scientific tests, no challenges, no doubts, no nothing, there He is.

Faith in this case might be the faith that he'd look out for me. Just coz He is there wont mean he is going to rescue me.

I am not sure what you are trying to say, however, again I see presumption and presupposition in your comment. Do you see that?

Audie wrote:

B. W. wrote:Whom and in what do you place your trust in?

I put different amounts of faith / trust in different people, things, institutions, as I see them I expect you do the same.

That is called natural faith and we all have this measure of faith. Therefore, you do have faith on this natural level and if on this natural level there is also a spiritual level. So faith exists and you have facts pointing to this, but you still will not believe in the evidence that God has set before you... due to presumption.

You trust the food stores will be stocked and everyone does their job in the degree of natural faith. Natural faith is necessary for humanity function. For example, a child trust mother and father to be there, but if this is thwarted, it is thwarted by human beings, faith is broken. Humanity broke the relational faith with God so we only have ourselves to have faith in. In that, I hear no one complain about.

So can you agree that you do have faith on the natural level - the same as all human beings share in common?
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Presumption- a belief that something is true even though it has not been proved

vs

I believe according to the evidence.

I sure dont see how they are the same. Its conditional acceptance, or conditional disbelief, depending on the evidence. I dont believe in Bigfoot, but its open to revision. I do believe the gas laws will always hold, but, they too could fail under some circumstances.

What i say can be taken various ways, depending on the presuppositions about me!

What one presumes and presupposes can of course have profound influence on their interpretation of what they see.

My training in science, as well as in my home life put great emphasis on the understanding that while objectivity is an ideal that can never be reached, one must always to his utmost. The easiest person to fool, is yourself.

So of course I have considered the possibility that I only see, or dont see, what I want.

a spiritual level. So faith exists and you have facts pointing to this, but you still will not believe in the evidence that God has set before you... due to presumption.

There was nothing that as stepping stone to the "so" (therefore) faith exists. Sure there is faith. If you are saying there is some special sort of faith, maybe, but, you didnt show it to me.

You are of course presupposing / assuming that there is a god and that it puts evidence before me and that I am disinclined to see or believe it. ( did the lower case and the "it" not out of disrespect for the God you believe in, but because male / female / neutral, god or gods of what kind or number is as much a question to me as God of the Bible)

Anyway, sure, I have if you want to call it that, "natural faith'. If you say you have some kind of spiritual faith, ok, there may be such a thing, I've only your word for it.

Prescription and presumption...I dont think anyone is ever completely free of these.
I like to think I make more effort to be objective than is the norm.

Audie wrote:Well, I think that an "old rag" has a vanishingly small chance of proving anything other than that there is a lot of hype and wishful thinking.

Thank you! The Shroud has no chance whatsoever of being genuine. You shouldn't write stuff you don't really believe unless you state that you are playing Devil's Advocate. I was about to downgrade my approval rating of you...

Do you think-assuming there is a God- that He could not make an old rag that did notcontain proof of His existence?

God doesn't need momentos to prove who He is. Sinful men & women grope for such things.

FL

Audie wrote:Presumption- a belief that something is true even though it has not been proved

vs

I believe according to the evidence.

I sure dont see how they are the same. Its conditional acceptance, or conditional disbelief, depending on the evidence. I dont believe in Bigfoot, but its open to revision. I do believe the gas laws will always hold, but, they too could fail under some circumstances.

What i say can be taken various ways, depending on the presuppositions about me!

What one presumes and presupposes can of course have profound influence on their interpretation of what they see.

My training in science, as well as in my home life put great emphasis on the understanding that while objectivity is an ideal that can never be reached, one must always to his utmost. The easiest person to fool, is yourself.

So of course I have considered the possibility that I only see, or dont see, what I want.

...a spiritual level. So faith exists and you have facts pointing to this, but you still will not believe in the evidence that God has set before you... due to presumption.

There was nothing that as stepping stone to the "so" (therefore) faith exists. Sure there is faith. If you are saying there is some special sort of faith, maybe, but, you didnt show it to me.

You are of course presupposing / assuming that there is a god and that it puts evidence before me and that I am disinclined to see or believe it. ( did the lower case and the "it" not out of disrespect for the God you believe in, but because male / female / neutral, god or gods of what kind or number is as much a question to me as God of the Bible)

Anyway, sure, I have if you want to call it that, "natural faith'. If you say you have some kind of spiritual faith, ok, there may be such a thing, I've only your word for it.

Prescription and presumption...I dont think anyone is ever completely free of these.
I like to think I make more effort to be objective than is the norm.

So let's get back to this point:

You trust the food stores will be stocked and everyone does their job in the degree of natural faith. Natural faith is necessary for humanity function. Yet, you do not see the tires made for the Combine and Seeders needed to plant and harvest the food on the grocery store shelves.

Question:

Do You expect the grocery store shelves to be stocked with food items, true or not?

Did you see the tires being made and placed upon the farm equipment used to plant, tend, and harvest the food seen on the shelves? Yes or no?

Then what of the seed the farmer used to plant the crops? For that matter, where did the first seed come from for the first plant to grow to produce seed?
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B. W. wrote:

Audie wrote:Presumption- a belief that something is true even though it has not been proved

vs

I believe according to the evidence.

I sure dont see how they are the same. Its conditional acceptance, or conditional disbelief, depending on the evidence. I dont believe in Bigfoot, but its open to revision. I do believe the gas laws will always hold, but, they too could fail under some circumstances.

What i say can be taken various ways, depending on the presuppositions about me!

What one presumes and presupposes can of course have profound influence on their interpretation of what they see.

My training in science, as well as in my home life put great emphasis on the understanding that while objectivity is an ideal that can never be reached, one must always to his utmost. The easiest person to fool, is yourself.

So of course I have considered the possibility that I only see, or dont see, what I want.

...a spiritual level. So faith exists and you have facts pointing to this, but you still will not believe in the evidence that God has set before you... due to presumption.

There was nothing that as stepping stone to the "so" (therefore) faith exists. Sure there is faith. If you are saying there is some special sort of faith, maybe, but, you didnt show it to me.

You are of course presupposing / assuming that there is a god and that it puts evidence before me and that I am disinclined to see or believe it. ( did the lower case and the "it" not out of disrespect for the God you believe in, but because male / female / neutral, god or gods of what kind or number is as much a question to me as God of the Bible)

Anyway, sure, I have if you want to call it that, "natural faith'. If you say you have some kind of spiritual faith, ok, there may be such a thing, I've only your word for it.

Prescription and presumption...I dont think anyone is ever completely free of these.
I like to think I make more effort to be objective than is the norm.

So let's get back to this point:

You trust the food stores will be stocked and everyone does their job in the degree of natural faith. Natural faith is necessary for humanity function. Yet, you do not see the tires made for the Combine and Seeders needed to plant and harvest the food on the grocery store shelves.

Question:

Do You expect the grocery store shelves to be stocked with food items, true or not?

Did you see the tires being made and placed upon the farm equipment used to plant, tend, and harvest the food seen on the shelves? Yes or no?

Then what of the seed the farmer used to plant the crops? For that matter, where did the first seed come from for the first plant to grow to produce seed?
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I dont much like the word "faith" in this connection, as the the meaning seems to shade imperceptibly from blind faith in imaginary evidence, or none at all, to faith that gravity will keep holding me to the ground.

Thus the endless equivocation games that we've all seen.

Regarding your examples of food, etc... I can, should i care to, trace any of those step by concrete step. I've seen much of it action, I've seen crops planted, I know where the feedlots are (phewwww).

Do you see,metaphorically God stocking store shelves?

That is the difference. That why the "God" thing relies on Faith, and
going to the store for something does not.

To me, I'd think (and as you alluded to) youd see Faith as something above and apart from faith that the cat wont bite you when you pick her up. Most sullies the word Faith to use it so, would it not?

As you noted, calling it "natural faith", a term Im not familiar with (where does it dome from?) is ncecessary just becasue of the equivocation inherent in the word 'faith".

Audie wrote:...I dont much like the word "faith" in this connection, as the the meaning seems to shade imperceptibly from blind faith in imaginary evidence, or none at all, to faith that gravity will keep holding me to the ground.

Thus the endless equivocation games that we've all seen.

Regarding your examples of food, etc... I can, should i care to, trace any of those step by concrete step. I've seen much of it action, I've seen crops planted, I know where the feedlots are (phewwww).

Do you see,metaphorically God stocking store shelves?

That is the difference. That why the "God" thing relies on Faith, and
going to the store for something does not.

To me, I'd think (and as you alluded to) youd see Faith as something above and apart from faith that the cat wont bite you when you pick her up. Most sullies the word Faith to use it so, would it not?

As you noted, calling it "natural faith", a term Im not familiar with (where does it dome from?) is ncecessary just becasue of the equivocation inherent in the word 'faith".

Presumptuous aren't you!- with you claiming science and facts superiority - are you aware that what you just wrote (above) denies what you wrote regarding faith to me:

Audie wrote: I put different amounts of faith / trust in different people, things, institutions, as I see them I expect you do the same.

Logical contradiction in your fact gathering... How can you say you place your faith/trust in different things and then say you are not familiar with 'natural' faith all human beings have after claiming people do have faith, isn't that faith natural then as you defined it?

You like facts but have you really studied the Greek Text of Hebrews 11:1 ? You want a definition of faith? It is granted, so why not use your intellect in an honest manner?

Have ever you actually taken the time to gather the facts about the original Greek word order and word meanings you left out of Heb 11:1 definition of faith another early wrote to you about on this thread? Did you leave out fact checking in order to presume that you can prove Christian faith must be blind and dumb? I hope not. Yet you do have faith in your presuming that you act according to facts, yet selectively willing to deny facts nevertheless. So far, your premise is clear to me: Faith is blind and dumb. So I take that to mean all folks who have faith as defined by you are as well. Yet, you have faith too! Welcome to the club!

Why can’t you live up to your own standard of investigation and actually look at Hebrews 11:1 in the original language for a moment and see the forest. Are you willing to do that?

Here is the original Koine Greek language word order from Heb 11:1 into English - ...is/also and faith of expecting the reality of things from/proof not being seen.

This ties into the context of Hebrews 10:39 with - those believing to the saving of the soul…

The Greek word order translated into English helps a bit more unscramble what the text is saying from the original so we can understand the text, however, in Greek text, it is more powerfully spoken but cannot have the same import unless it is restructured in English, which is common in intra-language translations. Add to this the fact that the word translated hope is not the same word we modern folks use the word hope. In the Greek it means – what you expect. Next the word translated substance means – reality. The word translated evidence means – from proof.

You can translate Hebrews 11:1 as follows with no injustice to the text: Faith, the reality of what you expect is from the proof of what you do not see.

That’s faith – I demonstrated this in regards to the grocery store illustration to explain what faith is. For example, you see the reality of the food on the store’s shelves because you have a desire for food to be met. Yet, you never see how the tires were made for the farmers equipment needed to harvest the food. However the proof that these tires were made which are not seen do exist from the evidence of what is seen on the shelves. That is the essence of what Hebrews 11:1 is conveying from the Greek text concerning faith as verse 3 confirms. That is faith and it ain't blind...

Now please re-read Hebrews 11:1 NKJV, Now faith is the substance (reality) of things hoped (expected) for, the evidence (from the proof) of things not seen.

Here in the natural world all around you, you have proof of its existence because you exist and see the earth, sky, and stars and expect each will runs its course. Where did this reality come from?

Where did the first seed come from the first plant to ever produce seed? Did you witness that? NO. Yet, we have seeds and plants. Where did they come from?

Who made the farmers, and the tire makers, and yes, even you? (The proof of things not seen caused the grocery store shelves to be well stocked)

Heb 11:3 NKJV, By faith (Trust) we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Yet, you do not trust that God made it possible for the natural world to exist. Why? Maybe a bit of presumption, you presume...

Or is it really blind faith that tries so hard to deny the world around came from a supremely intelligent being called God. You enjoy all the benefits of the grocery store but cannot accept that all that is seen all around was created. True faith rest on evidence seen that there is an unseen creator, God. That is what the text conveys. There is evidence and people choose to deny the truth that there is evidence by reinterpretations of evidence. How so...

Where did the star stuff come from that allegedly caused all to happen by random chance? You have faith in that, do you not? Did it just always exist? Why can’t an intelligent God then who made the first seed grow on the first plant ever made? Is your faith that blind to what is seen all around you? What more evidence for what is not seen to exist (God) do you need? What kind of faith is blocking you from accepting the obvious? That is a big question...

No, Christians do not have blind faith as you have, we see our creator from the reality of the evidence around us that he exists. Yet, you place more faith in random chance - to what avail - mind candy to be right and an inflated ego? Maybe an ax to grind, or maybe you are simply searching for God with a yearning heart because God gave all humanity a measure of faith so we may find him. Now please read the following verses:

Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Heb 11:1, Now faith (trust) is the (reality) of things (expected) for, (from the proof) of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible...

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.i/i] NKJV

Rom 1:19-20, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. NKJV

Now read Romans 1:17…

Where is your faith?

The evidence is all around for a creator, yet, people place blind faith that there isn't a creator and thus blindly cannot accept that this creator provided the means for their existence and the food store for them stocked in a supremely intelligent way that denies no freedom of thought from those whom he made capable of keeping the shelves well stocked from the seed he provided. In that, his eternal good nature is revealed to the just and unjust while it is we wreak and bring ruin to the store.
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BW. I will not defend myself, nor my ideas against things that you make up about me.

Sorry it had to go that way. The conversation such as it was, is over.

I found this thread a very interesting discussion from all sides.

What Audie said about faith having no evidence is correct. This does not mean evidence cannot be added, but on its own, faith itself is "the substance." In the first instance, not faith in something particular, but just faith alone.

The Bible defines what that faith is and what it is supposed to do, "without faith it is impossible to please God" A person with faith must believe that God is and that He rewards them that diligently seek Him.
That is describing a need for love in both man and God, and love fulfilled in both parties. "I please you and you please me" is what faith says. Where does that come from?

Love is a choice we make by having faith in the first place. So faith is both a need based on your whole self, mind and body and life, and it is the anticipation and belief that the need is already fulfilled. So it is the substance of things not seen or yet experienced. It is a way of having love before even getting it. We don't ever need to get love from God because we already have it!

When we fall in love, and I know that can be just a hormonal experience, none the less, we enjoy being in love even before we have any further evidence that the relationship will work or not. We already have what really has no proof as yet.

Faith has love and anticipates love. Which faith God has given everyone from birth. So everyone pleases God to begin with because He has given them faith, an anticipation of love. But of course we all stray from that and begin to seek other things which we think are more important than love. And that make us poor sinners. So in life God does not seem to care about anything else other than our strength of faith. He thinks it is more important than life itself. Can our faith be weakened? Yes, then how do we strengthen it? By exercise, by leaning on the promises of God.

"By faith we understand that God" made worlds etc. Once again, we don't have to see or have any proof that the worlds exist, but we anticipate and know a good thing, which comes from who we are and how we are made. If God made us with a need to have many worlds, faith will attest to that without any proof.

In a good parent child relationship, let's say the Dad comes home and holds his hands behind his back, the child is already happy to see the parent with or without the gift, ...who said it was a gift, who said it was for the child? So the child knows something before it has any proof. But the proof is already there in the goodness that exists in both of them and between them.

In the same way, a person must believe "that God is," that is that goodness exists, and that He rewards etc.

We believe in goodness because we have been designed to be good by God. So faith is the work of that goodness. It is the thing which lets love be.

Imagine having a love relationship without faith, its impossible. "without faith it is impossible to please God."

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"

If we want to realize that we have love, we have to listen to what the other is saying. The word of God tells us that He loves us, we need to know that because our faith has been obscured by sin.

Since God is the Creator and Love itself, true faith can only be in God and none other, and in nothing else.

So does faith have any evidence? Yes, "faith is the evidence" itself.

Byblos gave the correct response early in the thread. Beyond that, I would say that belief in God's existence is not a matter of faith. It is a matter of reason. It is certainly true that a great many hold to God's existence by faith, but such is not necessary. Thus Thomas Aquinas says,

• The existence of God and other like truths about God, which can be known by natural reason, are not articles of faith, but are preambles to the articles; for faith presupposes natural knowledge, even as grace presupposes nature, and perfection supposes something that can be perfected. Nevertheless, there is nothing to prevent a man, who cannot grasp a proof, accepting, as a matter of faith, something which in itself is capable of being scientifically known and demonstrated.

Thus, where there is proof, there is no need for faith. Faith follows upon what is proved.

I have known of people that intellectually come to the conclusion that there is design to the universe and therefore there must be a 'creator' but by that conclusion they have not come to have faith in God. There is a strong 'new age' belief in a creator but not how we correctly understand it. Truth is known through Faith. Faith is a measure of our trust. This is the means by which the Holy Spirit directs us towards unquestionable proof which resides somewhere much deeper than our minds.
1 corinthians 2:4-5
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Proverbs 3:5-6
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.

It's not about having faith in the 'proof' that God exists it's about having faith in the 'promise' of Gods existence.

How do you define faith melanie?

Audie wrote:BW. I will not defend myself, nor my ideas against things that you make up about me.

Sorry it had to go that way. The conversation such as it was, is over.

What did I make up about you? Please present it. I did not attack you at all. If you think I did show me where...

Would you like to discuss faith? I thought you did...

Dear Audie, I was once presented with this same thing when I was an atheist that I had faith and blind faith at that too. Anathema to an atheist no less - as I once was!

However, much later this bore fruit as I could not escape the question how the first seed came about from the first plant. I could not present a coherent import on evolution and random chance creation because - one, I did not see it happen - two, no answer to where the star stuff came from for creation to happen - three, I had to admit that I had faith in what I could not see. That burned me badly, have faith - not me - I trust err believe err know in science alone! Maybe probably how you feel now. That is not a bad thing as it causes one to think for oneself and not take things in so blindly. It is call reasoning with God - see Isaiah 1:18. He reason in many diverse ways.

For me all those years ago, I could see the evidence of the world around me that creation happened but my blind unwillingness to acknowledged God who Created it had to be challenged. It hurt but it bore good fruit. How so, Hebrews 10:39 speaks of salvation and therefore Hebrews 11:1-6 continues this for those who believe to the salvation of the soul and defines faith - the faith they have for salvation and the endurance and rest such grants. Just as you sought explanation for.

Jac and others rightly pointed out to you as well, that seeing all creation does not necessarily lead one to salvation through God's Grace by faith. It did not me when first presented with what I just presented you - done not to hurt you but rather to help you. While I was an atheist, after a relative relayed the fact that my faith was blind in its acceptance in things not seen - how could I fault Christians? I was faced every day, seeing the natural world and the stars at night shouting at me - divine intelligence. Even our physics and math proved there was a divine intelligence in order of the universe a someone who put it all together. So did biology, and the earth sciences. I could not escape it no matter how hard I tried. Trying just made me miserable so what did I do, I lashed out against any christian who tried to witness to me all the more.

Can you see what I was doing? Challenging what you have faith in not as a mean spirited nasty thing but rather like someone tossing you a life line so you will not drown. Have you ever saved a drowning person's life?

I have and been trained in it -Outward Bound - white water skills - 16 - 24/7 days of it. And it came it handy one day about a year after the class. Deep water rescue with an open canoe. Very tricky and timing is everything. Yelling at the man what I am going doing to do while he flayed about in the water and being forceful with words to do precisely what I say. He flayed about as I waited for the right moment, turned the canoe toward him reminding him to stay in water and hold on to the front of the canoe and if he flayed about, I would hit him over the head with the paddle. It was a long way to shore and if he tipped the boat, I would have to wait till he went under and inhaled water to fetch him, if not a drowning person will drown you. It was a long way to shore and he would have died before I ever swam there with him in rescue tow. He had to hold the front of the canoe in an expended energy mode and rest secure, to tired to try to climb in, but enough strength to hold on to the boat while I got him to shore with me all the while talking with him explaining everything in a firm caring manner. His life was saved.

So, if you think I came across a bit harsh, do not take it personally as I am trying to take you to Heavens Shore. It is there, its free, and comes by what Jesus Christ did upon that cross, so if you really want to discuss faith - shall we continue?
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Jac3510 wrote:How do you define faith melanie?

Melanie wrote; the Holy Spirit directs us towards unquestionable proof which resides somewhere much deeper than our minds.

She is essentially saying that the Holy Spirit is the cause of the faith which God has put into every man.

So then faith is the heaven born connection to the Savior, not a rational follow up of some evidence. Faith is not there to conclude anything, it is simply a means to connect with love.
If someone is busy looking for evidence of God, that's not faith, that's blindness.
The text says one "must believe that God is" or exists first, and that He is rewarding etc.
Without faith we have no connection with God, that's why He has given it to every human being.

If faith was something learned or acquired or sparked by evidence, then bad luck if you are short of it.

But by giving all a measure of faith, no one can say "God gave me nothing to be saved."

B. W. wrote:

Audie wrote:BW. I will not defend myself, nor my ideas against things that you make up about me.

Sorry it had to go that way. The conversation such as it was, is over.

What did I make up about you? Please present it. I did not attack you at all. If you think I did show me where...

Would you like to discuss faith? I thought you did...

Dear Audie, I was once presented with this same thing when I was an atheist that I had faith and blind faith at that too. Anathema to an atheist no less - as I once was!

However, much later this bore fruit as I could not escape the question how the first seed came about from the first plant. I could not present a coherent import on evolution and random chance creation because - one, I did not see it happen - two, no answer to where the star stuff came from for creation to happen - three, I had to admit that I had faith in what I could not see. That burned me badly, have faith - not me - I trust err believe err know in science alone! Maybe probably how you feel now. That is not a bad thing as it causes one to think for oneself and not take things in so blindly. It is call reasoning with God - see Isaiah 1:18. He reason in many diverse ways.

For me all those years ago, I could see the evidence of the world around me that creation happened but my blind unwillingness to acknowledged God who Created it had to be challenged. It hurt but it bore good fruit. How so, Hebrews 10:39 speaks of salvation and therefore Hebrews 11:1-6 continues this for those who believe to the salvation of the soul and defines faith - the faith they have for salvation and the endurance and rest such grants. Just as you sought explanation for.

Jac and others rightly pointed out to you as well, that seeing all creation does not necessarily lead one to salvation through God's Grace by faith. It did not me when first presented with what I just presented you - done not to hurt you but rather to help you. While I was an atheist, after a relative relayed the fact that my faith was blind in its acceptance in things not seen - how could I fault Christians? I was faced every day, seeing the natural world and the stars at night shouting at me - divine intelligence. Even our physics and math proved there was a divine intelligence in order of the universe a someone who put it all together. So did biology, and the earth sciences. I could not escape it no matter how hard I tried. Trying just made me miserable so what did I do, I lashed out against any christian who tried to witness to me all the more.

Can you see what I was doing? Challenging what you have faith in not as a mean spirited nasty thing but rather like someone tossing you a life line so you will not drown. Have you ever saved a drowning person's life?

I have and been trained in it -Outward Bound - white water skills - 16 - 24/7 days of it. And it came it handy one day about a year after the class. Deep water rescue with an open canoe. Very tricky and timing is everything. Yelling at the man what I am going doing to do while he flayed about in the water and being forceful with words to do precisely what I say. He flayed about as I waited for the right moment, turned the canoe toward him reminding him to stay in water and hold on to the front of the canoe and if he flayed about, I would hit him over the head with the paddle. It was a long way to shore and if he tipped the boat, I would have to wait till he went under and inhaled water to fetch him, if not a drowning person will drown you. It was a long way to shore and he would have died before I ever swam there with him in rescue tow. He had to hold the front of the canoe in an expended energy mode and rest secure, to tired to try to climb in, but enough strength to hold on to the boat while I got him to shore with me all the while talking with him explaining everything in a firm caring manner. His life was saved.

So, if you think I came across a bit harsh, do not take it personally as I am trying to take you to Heavens Shore. It is there, its free, and comes by what Jesus Christ did upon that cross, so if you really want to discuss faith - shall we continue?
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Not harsh, but yes, actually very personal.

I dont have time for this now, just writing this to show I
am not ignoring your overture which I do appreciate.

If you go back thru your post and look at all the "you" comments
regarding what I do, think or believe, and think how you arrived at those
maybe you will see whence my observation that you made them up.

I know myself; you dont. Too hasty, too little basis for your conclusions
that over and over are flat wrong, and speaking of flat, kinda unflattering.

Talk of ideas calls not for such as that.

I could go back and line by line your post, will if you
really cant tell what I am talking about.

I have too much study and more pressing things to write
about for now.

Thanks for your follow-up, and no hard feelings from me.

Starhunter wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:How do you define faith melanie?

Melanie wrote; the Holy Spirit directs us towards unquestionable proof which resides somewhere much deeper than our minds.

She is essentially saying that the Holy Spirit is the cause of the faith which God has put into every man.

So then faith is the heaven born connection to the Savior, not a rational follow up of some evidence. Faith is not there to conclude anything, it is simply a means to connect with love.
If someone is busy looking for evidence of God, that's not faith, that's blindness.
The text says one "must believe that God is" or exists first, and that He is rewarding etc.
Without faith we have no connection with God, that's why He has given it to every human being.

If faith was something learned or acquired or sparked by evidence, then bad luck if you are short of it.

But by giving all a measure of faith, no one can say "God gave me nothing to be saved."

Perhaps she is, but I was asking about how she is defining faith.