Evidence for God from Science

Some more thoughts on Jeremiah 4:23-28 that points us gap theorists to Genesis 1:2 because they describe the same thing but if you somehow do not understand how Jeremiah 4:23-28 is a look back in time instead of forward,but if you can't understand this points us to Genesis 1:2 then when has this ever happened since Adam and Eve? Or how can this be a future prophecy,we know the bible is full of future prophecy,but if Jeremiah 4:23-28 is a future prophecy then I ask you when is it going to happen according to future end-time bible prophecy?Don't you realize when you read about the tribulation period that life survives it and life is here when Jesus returns to set up his 1000 year millenial reign on this earth?Revelation tells us every eye will see him when he returns so Jeremiah 4:23-28 cannot be a future prophecy and this is why it is a look back to Genesis 1:2 and not a future prophecy.

Jac, edjumucate me, but my perception is that virtually no Hebrew scholars presently defend the Gap Theory, due precisely to the strict rules of Hebrew grammar and what it does and does not allow.

Read Bruce Waltke's analysis of the issue: http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedB ... Theory.pdf

Philip wrote:Jac, edjumucate me, but my perception is that virtually no Hebrew scholars presently defend the Gap Theory, due precisely to the strict rules of Hebrew grammar and what it does and does not allow.

Read Bruce Waltke's analysis of the issue: http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedB ... Theory.pdf

If you want to say the gap theory is not true because of Hebrew then you need to be specific about what you are getting at.Nobody has to be a Hebrew scholar to read Jeremiah 4:23-28 to see it is the very same picture we see when we read Genesis 1:2. God has given his word to us English speaking people and we can read it in our own language and see that Jeremiah 4:23-28 and Genesis 1:2 are describing the same thing.This is no different than like in Daniel it tells us about ten toes on the image of the figure in Daniel and yet in the book of revelation we see 10 horns on a beast,they are both referring to the same thing.This is the same when we read Jeremiah 4:23-28 and Genesis 1:2.

Also you need to understand that despite what young earth creationists have said about Genesis 1:2. Years ago a Hebrew rabbi translated the OT into English and in his translation of Genesis 1:2 he translated it "and the earth became without form and void" .My point is it has been translated became instead of "was without form and void"like we read in the KJV,etc.Like I've said false things have been spread by critics of the gap theory,but just so you know we can keep it "was without form and void"and it does not effect the gap theory.

Philip wrote:Jac, edjumucate me, but my perception is that virtually no Hebrew scholars presently defend the Gap Theory, due precisely to the strict rules of Hebrew grammar and what it does and does not allow.

Read Bruce Waltke's analysis of the issue: http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedB ... Theory.pdf

No, there are absolutely no Hebrew scholars that I am aware of who take the GT seriously. It is definitely ruled out by the construction of Gen 1:2. Here's a very short explanation of the matter:

• Hebrew text: וְהָאָרֶץ הָיְתָה תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ
  Transliterated: viha'aretz haytah tohu vabohu
  Translation: Now the earth was formless and void

The important part is in bold. The first letter, the waw, (vi in the transliteration and the first line with the dot under it on the right side of the word; remember Hebrew is read right to left) is used to connect words and concepts. The nature of that connection depends on the kind of word it is connected to and the construction that it is in. You see the same connection at the beginning of vabohu; again, you see the straight vertical line under the first letter of the fourth word in the Hebrew text (the word on the far left). Right under that straight line is a little t looking shape under it That t is a vowel that says "ah." The signel dot under the first waw is a vowel that says "ee" (so thus transliteration).

Okay, so much for the alphabet. The reason that's important is that when the waw is connected to a verb at the beginning of the sentence, it is called a waw-consecutive. If you pull up the Hebrew text of most narrative portions of the Bible, you'll see that waw-consecutive starts most verses. The function of that is to essentially say, "And this happened next." It moves the story along. Gap theorists, not really knowing Hebrew, saw that waw and assumed we had a waw-consecutive at the beginning of Gen 1:2 and assume that Gen 1:1 happens and then Gen 1:2 happens.

But they are wrong. The waw at the beginning of 1:2 is NOT a waw-consecutive. The reason is that the waw is not connected to a verb. It is, rather, connected to a noun (ha'arets = "the earth"). When connected to a noun, the waw becomes a waw-disjunctive or explanatory waw. What THAT does is NOT say what happens next--and this is VERY important--but rather tells us THE CIRCUMSTANCES REGARDING THE PREVIOUS VERSE OR CLAUSE. And, in fact, we see three such circumstances in Gen 1:2. The earth was 1) formless and void, 2) darkness was over the surface of the deep, and 3) the spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

In other words, the text is NOT saying that God created and then the earth became formless and void and then darkness was over the deepand then God was hovering over the waters. Rather, the text is saying that this is the way God created the world: formless and void, with darkness over the surface of the waters. That means that there can be no gap between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2.

All of this is common knowledge among Hebrew grammarians. By analogy, the gap theory has no more textual basis that Calvinists do when they assert that faith is a gift and appeal to Eph 2:8-9. It just doesn't work at all.

And as an aside, Jer 4 is a very weak argument. The prophet certainly uses the phrase "formless and void," but that doesn't mean that he is referring back to the events of Gen 1. He is using the same language to highlight the devestation to come. It's important to remember there that Jeremiah's prophecy is about a future event, not a past one. Again, OT scholars see that clearly. No one takes Jeremiah 4 as describing events of the past. It's completely indefensible.

Bottom line, there is a good reason that absolutely no conservative scholars (at least, that I'm aware of) hold to the GT today and that there are no papers defending the position. There are some pastors here and there who don't know Hebrew and read commentaries written back in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. But modern scholarship? No. It just doesn't exist in any serious form. Everyone is either YEC or OEC with some people in between who adopt either a YEC or OEC reading but then interpret the text from a different theological lens (e.g., Walton's Temple Dedication view).

2nd Peter 3:5-7 tells us the former world perished in water or a flood of both the heavens and the earth(NOTE Young earth creationist overlook that only the earth was flooded in Noah's flood but make Noah's flood fit here anyway despite the fact the heavens and earth were not flooded in Noah's flood like in this flood plus the sun was shut off in this flood but the sun shined the whole time during Noah's flood,then let's blend Jeremiah 4:23-28 into it.) They have to cram all of the evidence in this earth into just Noah's flood when it is their interpretation that is wrong because they don't read it close enough to see the details that were overlooked.

Now open your bible to Genesis 1 and in verse 2 you will see the earth is flooded like 2nd Peter tells us,OK but all life has died or perished for there is no sunlight,star light,etc to shine on the earth,the heavens are black like Jeremiah 4:23-28 and Genesis 1:2 reveals to us.So on the first day God says Let there be light,he does this because the heavens are black,OK we read on and because the heavens and the earth have been flooded like 2nd Peter3:5-7 tells us God says Let there be a firmament in the midst of this water and he creates the earth's atmosphere and divides these waters that flooded the heavens and the earth,OK but the because the earth is still covered with water God says Let the dry land appear and the continents rise up out of the water,

As we can see God is restoring the heavens and the earth,then God creates life after their kind,then God turns the sun and stars back on for seasons,etc then God creates animals after their kind referring to the life in the former world that perished and creates every living creature after his kind,then God picks up dirt and forms man and breaths into him and man becomes a living soul..God has restored the heavens and the earth after day 6 and then he rests on the 7th day. This is how we should read Genesis 1 based on Jeremiah 4:23-28 and 2nd Peter 3:5-7 plus many other scriptures also in the old and new testaments. And you do not have to know or understand Hebrew.

ACB,

Jeremiah 4 is talking about a future judgement and destruction of the land. The allusion in Jeremiah, was to what the earth looked like before God's creation act. It was to show how terrible the destruction would be. The land would look like what the earth looked like before God created on it.

And that's just a simple reading of the text in English, by a layman.

Taking the verses in Jeremiah and Genesis to be talking about the same event, cannot be understood by a simple reading of the text. The context in Jeremiah 4 is about something in the future. The Genesis creation event is in the past. The mention in Jeremiah, about the way the earth looked before creation, was a comparison used to tell how bad the destruction would be from God's judgement.

You're simply reading way too much into the text.

I don't want my last post of 2014 to be about the gap theory, so instead, I'll post about something far more important. BEHOLD OBJECTIVE BEAUTY!!!









My girls. Charlotte will be two in March. Elly just turned five.

edit:

If the pics of my kids don't work and you want to see what I have wrought on this world, click these:

Wow, Jac, they're the spitting "image" of you!

Are you saying it didn't show up, that it just said "image"? I was afraid it might. I changed a setting. Hope it works now

And wonderfully precious images they are! Jac, you are exceptionally blessed!

RickD wrote:ACB,

Jeremiah 4 is talking about a future judgement and destruction of the land. The allusion in Jeremiah, was to what the earth looked like before God's creation act. It was to show how terrible the destruction would be. The land would look like what the earth looked like before God created on it.

And that's just a simple reading of the text in English, by a layman.

Taking the verses in Jeremiah and Genesis to be talking about the same event, cannot be understood by a simple reading of the text. The context in Jeremiah 4 is about something in the future. The Genesis creation event is in the past. The mention in Jeremiah, about the way the earth looked before creation, was a comparison used to tell how bad the destruction would be from God's judgement.

You're simply reading way too much into the text.

I can agree Jeremiah 4:23-28 looks like a future prophecy however according to future prophecy this cannot fit into future prophecy and this is how we know it is a look back to Genesis 1:2 they both describe the earth being without form and void and the heavens are black too.It is quite easy to see but how are we as Christians going to defeat evolution without the gap theory? Only the gap theory can defeat the theory of evolution.Plus the evidence in the earth backs it up too.There is evidence for a former world full of life that perished.The bible tells us in Isaiah "when the enemy comes in like a flood,the spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him.None of the other creation theories defeat evolution like the gap theory.

ACB wrote:
I can agree Jeremiah 4:23-28 looks like a future prophecy however according to future prophecy this cannot fit into future prophecy and this is how we know it is a look back to Genesis 1:2 they both describe the earth being without form and void and the heavens are black too.It is quite easy to see but how are we as Christians going to defeat evolution without the gap theory? Only the gap theory can defeat the theory of evolution.Plus the evidence in the earth backs it up too.There is evidence for a former world full of life that perished.The bible tells us in Isaiah "when the enemy comes in like a flood,the spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him.None of the other creation theories defeat evolution like the gap theory.

You're making a BIG mistake by putting all your eggs in a Gap Theory basket.

The Gap theory is not going to defeat Evolution. If types of evolution are not true, we will find out when we get more scientific knowledge. And that goes for the types of evolution that ARE true.

As Knowledge increases in the future, we will see which theory starts to move to the top of all the other creation beliefs.

I hate to break it to you ACB, but there's a possibility that when we find out more, theistic evolution may well be the one that rises to the top.

Is your faith in Christ hanging on your belief in the Gap Theory?

Jac3510 wrote:

Philip wrote:Jac, edjumucate me, but my perception is that virtually no Hebrew scholars presently defend the Gap Theory, due precisely to the strict rules of Hebrew grammar and what it does and does not allow.

Read Bruce Waltke's analysis of the issue: http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedB ... Theory.pdf

No, there are absolutely no Hebrew scholars that I am aware of who take the GT seriously. It is definitely ruled out by the construction of Gen 1:2. Here's a very short explanation of the matter:

• Hebrew text: וְהָאָרֶץ הָיְתָה תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ
  Transliterated: viha'aretz haytah tohu vabohu
  Translation: Now the earth was formless and void

The important part is in bold. The first letter, the waw, (vi in the transliteration and the first line with the dot under it on the right side of the word; remember Hebrew is read right to left) is used to connect words and concepts. The nature of that connection depends on the kind of word it is connected to and the construction that it is in. You see the same connection at the beginning of vabohu; again, you see the straight vertical line under the first letter of the fourth word in the Hebrew text (the word on the far left). Right under that straight line is a little t looking shape under it That t is a vowel that says "ah." The signel dot under the first waw is a vowel that says "ee" (so thus transliteration).

Okay, so much for the alphabet. The reason that's important is that when the waw is connected to a verb at the beginning of the sentence, it is called a waw-consecutive. If you pull up the Hebrew text of most narrative portions of the Bible, you'll see that waw-consecutive starts most verses. The function of that is to essentially say, "And this happened next." It moves the story along. Gap theorists, not really knowing Hebrew, saw that waw and assumed we had a waw-consecutive at the beginning of Gen 1:2 and assume that Gen 1:1 happens and then Gen 1:2 happens.

But they are wrong. The waw at the beginning of 1:2 is NOT a waw-consecutive. The reason is that the waw is not connected to a verb. It is, rather, connected to a noun (ha'arets = "the earth"). When connected to a noun, the waw becomes a waw-disjunctive or explanatory waw. What THAT does is NOT say what happens next--and this is VERY important--but rather tells us THE CIRCUMSTANCES REGARDING THE PREVIOUS VERSE OR CLAUSE. And, in fact, we see three such circumstances in Gen 1:2. The earth was 1) formless and void, 2) darkness was over the surface of the deep, and 3) the spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

In other words, the text is NOT saying that God created and then the earth became formless and void and then darkness was over the deepand then God was hovering over the waters. Rather, the text is saying that this is the way God created the world: formless and void, with darkness over the surface of the waters. That means that there can be no gap between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2.

All of this is common knowledge among Hebrew grammarians. By analogy, the gap theory has no more textual basis that Calvinists do when they assert that faith is a gift and appeal to Eph 2:8-9. It just doesn't work at all.

And as an aside, Jer 4 is a very weak argument. The prophet certainly uses the phrase "formless and void," but that doesn't mean that he is referring back to the events of Gen 1. He is using the same language to highlight the devestation to come. It's important to remember there that Jeremiah's prophecy is about a future event, not a past one. Again, OT scholars see that clearly. No one takes Jeremiah 4 as describing events of the past. It's completely indefensible.

Bottom line, there is a good reason that absolutely no conservative scholars (at least, that I'm aware of) hold to the GT today and that there are no papers defending the position. There are some pastors here and there who don't know Hebrew and read commentaries written back in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. But modern scholarship? No. It just doesn't exist in any serious form. Everyone is either YEC or OEC with some people in between who adopt either a YEC or OEC reading but then interpret the text from a different theological lens (e.g., Walton's Temple Dedication view).

Wrong!Gap theorists have proven the Hebrew word used for "was" can be translated to "became" .If what you are saying is true then how come a Hebrew Rabbi translated the OT into English and in Genesis 1:2 he translated it "and the earth became without form and void" .The only reason the Gap theory has been forgotten about is because of false things being spread about it by critics of it.It is said Gap theorists made the bible fit into millions of years and science but this is a lie because ST Augustine believed in the Gap and Augustine was important for protestants.St Augustine lived 500 years ago long before modern science in geology discovered the earth was old and not young confirming the gap theory,this is why it was revived in the christian church before Charles Darwin wrote his book in 1859.The truth is the evidence in the earth that once proved the gap theory true in christian churches was hyjacked away by evolutionists and they made evolution fit into the science.This is the truth and if you read "the origin of species"written by Charles Darwin in 1859 you will see he wrote it trying to thwart the gap theory,Not young earth creationism but old heavens and earth gap theory.This is important to understand as Christians especially with the influence of evolution today.The fact is young earth creationists are dogmatic about their young earth interpretation even though the bible does not tell us the earth is young,it reveals the heavens and earth are old and science confirmed it.

RickD wrote:

ACB wrote:
I can agree Jeremiah 4:23-28 looks like a future prophecy however according to future prophecy this cannot fit into future prophecy and this is how we know it is a look back to Genesis 1:2 they both describe the earth being without form and void and the heavens are black too.It is quite easy to see but how are we as Christians going to defeat evolution without the gap theory? Only the gap theory can defeat the theory of evolution.Plus the evidence in the earth backs it up too.There is evidence for a former world full of life that perished.The bible tells us in Isaiah "when the enemy comes in like a flood,the spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him.None of the other creation theories defeat evolution like the gap theory.

You're making a BIG mistake by putting all your eggs in a Gap Theory basket.

The Gap theory is not going to defeat Evolution. If types of evolution are not true, we will find out when we get more scientific knowledge. And that goes for the types of evolution that ARE true.

As Knowledge increases in the future, we will see which theory starts to move to the top of all the other creation beliefs.

I hate to break it to you ACB, but there's a possibility that when we find out more, theistic evolution may well be the one that rises to the top.

Is your faith in Christ hanging on your belief in the Gap Theory?

Science cannot demonstrate life evolves and they admit it cannot be observed.This is why the Gap theory defeats evolution because without scientific evidence life evolves they have no credibility and then we can explain why and how the evidence in this earth has been interpreted wrong based on the belief life evolves.It cannot be shown or demonstrated that life evolves so then we can explain the truth about what the evidence in this earth proves and that is a former world existed that perished.Jesus warned about deception in the last days so much that the elect of God could be deceived,do not believe life evolves until a scientist can demonstrate it and not one can right now,relax and don't buy into theistic evolution.